Fury vs. the heavyweight champs of the past | Boxen247 with Kristian | Talkin Fight

On this episode, we take a look at Tyson Fury and how he might have fared against some of the heavyweight legends of the past, such as JoeLouis, RockyMarciano, SonnyListon, Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ken Norton, Larry Holmes, Tim Witherspoon, Trevor Berbick, Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis.

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Transcribed:

[, Music, ], [, Music, ], hello, boxing fans around the world.

Thank you for joining us once again for another episode on talking fighting boxing 247.

boy.

Do we have our cracking episode lined up for you today? This is the challenge.

If tyson fury we’re alive, let’s say 50 years ago, i don’t know, but the point matter is is uh: how would he stack up against the heavyweights of the past? Not we.

We talked about the heavyweights of the president yesterday uh, but uh.

This was this.

Was the challenge, so let me roll through just to get this whole thing started how you doing christian, i’m fine, but i think you’ll find that tyson fury would be in a circus sideshow, not a boxer, but just the first comment.

Listen to this! Listen to this list that that i’ve discovered is it’s absolutely incredible.

Let me let me just start off with someone who we can all appreciate joe lewis, also uh known as the brown bomber, but uh unbelievably, he was only six foot two and had a 76 inch reach.

I don’t know if anyway, so going back to like some of the more historic uh boxes of the past.

Let me let me let me tell you about rocky marciano, though again, whether this guy would be considered heavyweight.

Today, i’m not sure he’s five foot ten and a half with only 68 inch reach.

That’S incredible, sunny listening average weight in the 180s.

I think you’re, fine, sunny, listen, six foot, one 84 inch reach! I mean these guys.

These guys were brilliant in their time, but would they be any match? I mean going back to our all-time favorite muhammad ali.

He was only six foot.

Three 78 inch reach we’ll talk about him in a sec, i’m sure joe frazier, five foot eleven and a half with a 73 inch reach.

I got blew me away when i read that george foreman six foot three not bad, but still no match: 78 78 inch region, ken norton, six foot.

Three.

Eighty inch reach larry holmes, six foot three.

Eighty one inch reach our good friend tim witherspoon six foot three and a half 78 inch reach our good canadian friend trevor burbick six foot, two.

Seventy eight inch reach, although he might be jamaican good old mike tyson, guess what he comes in that officially he came.

He was five foot eleven, but they said that’s five foot, ten yeah five, ten.

Seventy one inch reach incredible right and our good friend uh lennox, lewis, biggest of them all six foot.

Five 84 inch reach incredible, so uh.

So there you go there’s by comparison.

Given the fact that our boy tyson fury, is six nine, i mean these these guys.

They i mean yes, they would give them a fight um, given the various boxing styles have changed over the years.

Some have implemented some of them innovative, but at the end of the day uh i can’t see any one of those guys beating tyson fury.

Can you argue away if you want? No, i mean the first point.

I would bring up uh.

Excuse me if any facts are wrong, because this is all going to be going by memory, but it’s all well.

Okay, forget that, prior to, i will say the klitschko’s every single heavyweight that was of any size, let’s say, for example, six foot, six, i’m not gon na.

Remember every example, but go back.

You had uh jesh uh jess willard.

That was knocked out in the second round, famously by um, that was it uh not junk.

He knocks out he’s the one that knocked out: uh jack jackson, famously sorry, you said famously, and i thought oh yeah yeah, because you had jack johnson.

He had such a long career than you had um.

It was a famous knockout, it was after god, 13, but the 13th house, i think, is after a long fight uh, and it was famous for the fact that a lot of people said that jack johnson actually threw it, because when he was knocked down, he was There famously shielding his eyes from the sun.

No, you don’t do that if you are concussed so uh back in those days where money really did talk.

It would surprise me if there was some uh wrong doing back then, but anyway, jess willard knocked him out, and then you had the chap who was dominant after that um [, Music ], remember his name in a moment, but jess willard was big and he was Cumbersome, you then had the italian guy um who came in who was uh.

He did a lot of acting as well, but he was huge and he was a pro primo connera that supreme camera he came and he was cumbersome italian de la vactine.

He did some wrestling uh, but was just it was a joke.

You know anything that was sort of north of six foot two six foot one was this regarded as wrong and uh laughed that they would not have any kind of future in them now with the weights and only become when you had in moving into the 70s.

That heavyweights, actually then, okay, i will say this probably sunny.

Listen was probably the first heavyweight who had some size to him and his weight.

If i remember right was fighting weight was around the 210 to 15 mark.

You then had obviously cassius clay, but clay was uh early on.

He was very 193 195.

I think if memory serves me right, his heaviest fighting weight was early.

Two, i think about 201, but that was only for a couple of fights it was.

It was in the 190s.

The point with that is that you know he’s a bridge weight.

No little bridge weight he’s a cruiserweight um cruiserweight, yes, absolutely not a heavyweight, not a super heavyweight um.

Okay, yeah ali come back after three and a half years out.

He had put on weight was the second incarnation of the valley, but in the first carnation we don’t know but uh.

You know we were then with fighters, then up into the 217 larry holmes came in his average fight weight was round 215 into 220.

It went up as he got older, as is usually the case, but you know what i think back to larry holmes, one of my favorite fighters.

I still think you know he was already home six foot three around that kind of size, 220 pounds yeah correct me.

If i’m wrong with his height 6263, something around there, um 220, that’s regarded as small.

You know he’d be pushed down now into bridgewater if it goes, and it obviously goes from wbc onto the other uh sanctioning bodies as well.

But regardless of what the weight class is, it’s still regarded as small and somebody that you’d have to be in an immense amount of skill to get over the first hurdle, which is the size as generally the case, and not always the case with the size then Becomes reach and a whole load of disadvantages that you’ll, first of all, put you know against you as a fighter before skill comes into it, but the klitschkos were regarded as or they turned out to be because when they first turned pro back in what um, i Think about 97 for vladimir, i remember the two were going slowly up the ranks they were being reported.

It’S been much of a joke and um.

You know the beating bums as the usual sort of early career journeyman, whatever they were saying they were stiff.

They were this, they were that um, you know: okay, vladimir’s early success were a little bit delayed, vitaly did better early, but they were still considered as robotic um and and through to the end, had to be loosened up a little bit, but then out of nowhere, Big heavyweights came along and or heavyweights that were smaller, um were becoming bigger, for example, lennox lewis, when he lost to his first loss to oliver mccall.

He then moved from trainer pepe korea.

I think it was who was uh in sugar ray’s corner for quite a few fights, but it wasn’t angelo dundee.

Now, when lewis came back after the first defeat, the one thing that um his trainer manny stewart did with him was get him to put on some weight and he become more of a unit and was more in line with today’s heavyweights.

Otherwise, when we’re comparing all these fighters, you know he’s going to be at a disadvantage again um tyson, who, i think is still for me – the best heavyweight, that’s another discussion, but he would still struggle with the taller guys which he did throughout his career.

He struggled with bone crusher smith well bernard.

However, you want to put it uh, tony tucker, very good fighter.

He was six four, but these were only six four, not six, six, not six.

Seven.

Like six nine.

I think we can leave uh seven foot, two uh value about the equation.

Um in the future, give it ten years we’ll have a mobile seven foot, two fighters – you never know, but it changed over time.

Thank god.

But you know when you start just just by first thing: you know long story cut short size was such a huge thing would be a huge thing now with the big heavyweights.

So if you’re gon na pitch fantasy fights with nowadays these bigger units which are heavy weights, you know put them in with the you know the early 210 220 guys, which is big for back then, and the further you go back the smaller they were.

You know technically, a heavy weight back way back is a light heavyweight cruiserweight at most.

You know too many disadvantages and when people – and i know i will get shot for this – but when people say oh, you know whatever champion back then would beat the champion.

Now.

Sorry they are being sentimental, they are put putting aside the fact that you are at a physical disadvantage and a problem.

Now it’s not like they’re all big now and they’ve got no skill, no they’re big now, and they have skill exactly bloody hell.

What do you do about that? But sentiment plays a lot with a lot of people when they look back.

You know back to the 70s, you know the further back, the smaller they were and it’s just not comparable.

You know rocky marciano um.

He was one late.

180S early, just you know just squeaking 190s.

I think with his weight around that area, you cannot.

You know with that.

The punch would not put a dent in these big heavyweights now or heavyweights 10 years ago.

Heavyweights in the nine says it wouldn’t right.

Absolutely not.

There’S a huge difference and a too much for a disparity to even start thinking.

Well, oh and the big fighter.

What you’ve got to do it, you know, punches, will be bouncing off them, reach everything non-comparable just to start absolutely and then, as a bit of a sidebar um.

We are told back in the day when, when uh hockey ice hockey in particular, these guys were quite good at their sport back.

You know in the 50s and 60s, but they were also fueled by red wine on the bench uh.

You know, and that was quite the norm, so things have changed considerably over the decades when you come to factors now such as uh, as i mentioned earlier, innovative styles, but you talk about you know someone innovating on the fly in the ring to come up with That kind of response, if you will to the opposition the rope-a-dope uh, you know, i don’t think these things are trained um to you so anyway.

So now you have training, as i mentioned prior to the fury fight nutrition.

You know: did the fighters of uh 20 odd years ago, even have nutritionists or therapists of any kind, i’m sure they had great trainers, potentially great managers, but at the end of the day, did they have full-on teams to help them uh prepare for their fights and The answer, probably is no, these guys are fighting on.

You know what they learned if you will on the street, which was owned in their various schools uh, but at the end of the day, could any even i’m going to argue even up to 20 years ago.

Um, you know your example would be is 20 years ago, mike tyson era, kind of so so the reality of it is is at his prime mike tyson wouldn’t stand a chance against his tyson fury.

That is one.

I’Ve actually don’t know why this is uh.

Excuse the microphone the volume seems to be waving up and down for some reason, but uh, maybe there’s some autumn.

Just your excitement level come on.

Yes, love a chat about the heavyweights.

Well, mike tyson, you see, i think he is in a class of his own um.

You know there’s a lot of mike tyson haters out there i at his peak and that bear in mind it’s a very short peak which was 85 to 88, the best and as much as i still think he would have beaten the big guys now.

He would have severely severely struggled um, and you know when you start thinking about trying to put tyson in with a 300 uh.

You know up to a 300 pound or sorry 20 stone um tyson fury.

I just can’t imagine how right maybe he couldn’t, but i can’t see as much as um tyson would could be, could be ineffective against fury.

I just can’t see, then you know tyson landing on you’ve got that other thing.

Well, the you know the heavyweight still got to be quick enough to land and i think again in his heyday 85 to 88.

His defense was very good.

The tyson of in the 2000s go back into the 90s was different defense.

Wasn’T there um right when, when kevin rooney was taken out the corner, but um yeah, i think it’s it’s imagining.

Unfortunately, we would never know um if tyson fury was somewhat of a lucky fighter and, let’s say in the match up uh you had mike tyson getting a lucky punch.

Tyson fury has proven that he can take the heavy punch.

He has got a good chin and can come up from a knock down, so even if back in the day, you know mike tyson at his height god that lucky shot in it.

I don’t know if it would knock out tyson fury yeah it’s.

I don’t think that he would get to him in that way.

I just think that he would be threatening throughout the you know.

The bigger fighters when they struggled with tyson would go into a bit of a shell.

You know looking at big fighters, you’ve got like.

I said you’ve had tony tucker, you had bone crusher smith, you had uh mitch, blood, green um.

You know the taller ones, the six fours he did struggle with, so he would struggle uh.

He went the distance with those uh, okay, not all of them, but uh.

That’S when he did struggle was with a taller fighter uh, because you know, as we were saying with you know, disadvantages him at five foot ten would go in at you know all these natural disadvantages, okay made it up with other things, but too much of a Disadvantage to overcome first off um, it’s it’s completely different and you know how’s, it go, you know joking early, but how is it going to be in 20 years time? You know, are they going to be bigger? You know, is six foot.

Six, you know is that the new norm now for a heavyweight, because it seems that six, three six four, you know what was considered huge in a you know: a circus sideshow years ago is now the norm right exactly to see you know what point does it Stop um yeah, i don’t think we’ll ever have a fleet-footed valley wave type of fighter, but i think it’s like you know how it is now for for a while.

Trending methods have changed, and these these big chaps can move now never used to be able to.

They can move.

I am curious uh, you know, because you talk about the longevity of their career, uh they’re, not that long in the ring, quite frankly, and that might be due to that combination of size and let’s even just say that the heart’s ability to handle that kind of Or endure that kind of workout, if you will for any long time whether whether you’re talking about the actual length of the fight or the length of the career.

So i i think, if you’re, that big and take american football players, for example, these guys are huge.

Uh, you know 300 pound boys and, and yet their careers are only two or three years long.

You know i mean yeah, you have to wonder whether they’re literally their hearts can handle that kind of exertion.

Personally, i disagree there only for the fact that you look at the average retirement age um.

I get a little bit misleading because if it can be argued, they’ve just gone too late, but um with the way heavyweight champions are going and an active top tier heavyweights are going.

They are now going on to a longer age back, go back 20 years ago.

Um, you know it was considered old as soon as you were reaching 35 that is now not considered old whatsoever.

You remember when ali was in the rematch with george foreman.

He was 32 um.

You know in uh kinshire now that was oh, too old, too washed up to at 32.

.

You know you got klitschko that was through to 42.

.

You had okay, george foreman, you know he’s got the record 46.

um there.

They are going on later now.

The new norm is is 40 years old um.

I did an article today there’s a fighter turning pro he’s.

39.

wow.

Yes, what? If i were writing if i were writing in the media, i would call those guys kg veterans.

Yes, [ Laughter, ] seasons, very seasoned, yeah they’re, going on on later um it’s.

What is the cause of that um, and that is i’m just trying to think.

Would it all change changing the 90s, because in the 80s you know larry holmes, even if he did go on at a certain level actually to quite a low age to he was 52 when he had his last fight in 2002.

um, you know you, he was Again, i remember when he fought sphinx as in uh, michael uh.

We fought him twice now.

He was 36 when he fought uh sphinx the first time and at 36 was regarded as old, not get in there.

You know people talk now.

You know coming towards the end of their their career.

You know when they talk about 35 37 year olds.

No, you are washed up.

That was the 80s.

The 17 was it’s gone from, like sort of early 30s.

Mid 30s to the 90s would have been late.

30S, now they’re going well into their their 40s i’d hate to think how old uh, luis ortiz really is um.

Okay, klitschko uh, 42 come back, okay lost to joshua, but he was still very competitive.

That’S still top tier! You know 40 still the champion before running into uh fury um.

They are later now uh that that has changed over the past 20 30 years.

That’S one thing that has happened uh where this, but where the super size, where it all changes where and how? It’S all changed, i really don’t know like you said you know the nutrition has changed, but wha.

What makes a bigger guy be more because what i’m trying to i’m just trying to recall some of the the write-ups and some of the reports that were done when these big fighters were coming in, and i remember words being used.

You have okay, uh michael grant.

He failed at top level uh.

Of course he went in with lennox lewis’s undefeated.

Now michael grant was just one that just come with my head.

He was six foot, nine um had a bit of a weak chin um, but he was very naturally athletic.

It says you know the it’s this naturally athletic was a word that was used very much in the 90s to these bigger fighters.

Yep, it was the 90s, it all changed when it started going to six.

You know six five into six: seven klitschko’s late, 90s um.

Why you had that surge? I can.

I guess it must have been a advances of of you know: training nutrition as you, as you said, um! Well, you know what, though there is.

There is the other angle on this, and that is uh.

What influences young men and women to engage in in the sport uh of boxing uh? And if it’s? If it’s me, yeah, if it’s media, then the answer would be money because in in the late 90s, you had the influence of the internet.

Slowly but surely creeping in on the sport and you take a look.

Therefore, if i’m a manager, i want someone with drawing power, not just to fill a 15 000 seat arena, but now to start filling in pay-per-view sales as well, so that might be an influencing factor when it comes to being a manager and pedaling.

If you will your roster, that is now uh, not only seasoned but is a name value and that’s draw therefore money at the box office, not just not just bums in seats but to online ticket sales, which are now you know.

I mean how much how much did tyson fury rake in this week weekend.

They were saying that uh fury was uh 60 and uh.

Wilder 40.

wow unheard of numbers.

It was okay, [ Laughter, ] thanks a lot yeah uh.

Yes, they were splitting at 60 40 with the projected 100 million that was in the pot for the uh two of them truly incredible, but there you go.

So that’s what i might argue as well uh, because how how hard would it be to go around the world if you had say an unlimited budget and find the best of the best? Who were the in this super category of heavyweight uh? Someone who could you know your job, you’re jogging young man, is to go find out uh.

If there’s anyone out there who can beat tyson fury, you know he and after a year’s uh of walking around the earth, he comes up with five boys who, who are six foot ten? You know 280 pounds and you can really box unbelievably but can really box.

I mean how many, how many guys in i i’m going out there now, but how many guys are in nigeria right now, uh who are boxing, who are completely undiscovered but are huge, big boys.

We don’t know you know how many guys in india are there that are boxing right now, that are absolutely huge.

We don’t know completely agree something which i’ve often thought about with uh.

All of this you know, we’ve got people which are in countries or whatever, which haven’t got.

The funding.

Training et cetera to break through would be interesting if there was ever anybody that was just overlooked.

Yeah be curious to curious to know that.

But if the mandate, for example, if that is the mandate, if i’m a a bob aaron kind of guy – and i realize that these big names are drawing a hundred million dollars, mainly due to pay-per-view sales, and then i’m get i’m getting my team out there on The road and they’re going to go find me more tyson, furies yeah, they uh you’ve got the uh japanese chaplain just trying to remember his name.

He um [ Music ].

There was a chinese or japanese fighter big and they were trying to build him up uh to fight uh aj and he’s got an unblemished record in his last fight.

He really struggled and completely uh no heavyweight super heavy weight.

Very big heavy weight like a six foot, six chap and before a few months ago and nearly came unstuck because he was more of that robotic stereotypical, big uh fighter, which you know he’ll, never get it anywhere.

Unfortunately, uh very, very big fighter.

Um.

One question i wanted to put to you: i know we’ve briefly discussed it before, but with fury as he is.

This super huge uh tank unit that he is, is he more effective now or when he was? Let’S say: uh fury one and his peak.

Obviously, when he bought beat glitchko and his weight was way different, his look was way different, um zhang, that’s the one yeah uh yeah he’s what i call a typical six six chap.

That’S just you know, uh couldn’t move and he didn’t come stuck and that was against the journeyman.

So as soon as he moves up, he’ll get beat, but there’s been nothing from him at all, because i think the pen is dropped, he’s never going to get anywhere.

But that’s boxing um, which few would you think, is more effective phase one if we want to look at that way or this huge phase two, because the thing that has got me thinking uh about this is that this weight was put on as far as i’m Concerned to beat wilder because you had the light uh, you know obviously the first wilder fight.

He was very light.

He then had the two matches um.

He had what tom schwartz the first one that was what fourth round ko than you had um otto wollen pushed very hard and though john feudal was saying he’s too light.

His big frame is too um too drained and they’ve counted it now, with this um super weight, that’s kicked in um as this super weight.

Now i think the problem is by the way.

I don’t think it’s just the weight that he’s trained.

I just think it’s.

The weight after the weight loss because he certainly wasn’t drained with the lead up to klitschko and in the klitschko fight that was an absolute master class which he did and there was no weakness there whatsoever.

That was not as much as he was a similar weight.

You know in the klitschko fight to obviously the the early comeback with the first wilder fight and schwartz and uh wallin.

You know, i think it’s the case of he was too drained that way after the eight stone loss now, do you think he would ever go back in weight, or do you think that’s this unit? That is how he is for all possible possible fighters in the future, bear in mind uh, you think he could retire.

I think he’s got one more fight left in him for the big brit one and then he will retire um legacy and obviously uh what he would regard rightly so as easy pickings now against aj.

But i’m just curious to know what you know.

Is he the more effective fighter heavier or not? It’S like george foreman.

You know taking everything into consideration.

Yes, he was a bigger puncher.

He was fearsome in his first carnation, but he wasn’t very clever.

Well, the second foreman was bigger, heavier more fat, more conservative and he’s more of a thinking fighter.

Was he more effective? Then it’s something i’ve had this conversation with, so many people, a lot of people say: oh yeah, obviously in the 70s or some people say you know in the 90s, it’s a curious thing.

Does weight really help um? What’S the answer? Well, the answer is, if you know how to use it, so uh with the with age comes experience uh and that impacts uh.

The boxer on many different levels, so you’re not only a smarter boxer but you’re, also more intelligent and a great example.

I go back to it.

A great example would be how tyson fury was demonstrating how he eats now, as opposed to when he was a younger uh fighter.

Okay, so as an experienced boxer uh, he now knows that a he needed to put on the weight keep on the weight but have that weight used to his advantage, not just if it was leaning on and tiring out the opponent.

But actually, if you will, as uh padding, you know to stave off those blows uh anyway, you, if you add all this up, i would argue that this incarnation of tyson fury is absolutely unbeatable.

I mean deontay wilder gave it his all and uh could not knock out tyson fury period, and i don’t think anthony, joshua or yousek is going to be victorious when they go up against this incarnation of tyson fury he’s only if he’s getting bigger i’ll be blown Away but right now he’s he’s at his his prime and now you say: he’s got one more fight to maintain that legacy fair enough uh, but he also has the experience and the ability, physical ability to withstand what is thrown at him and does a usyker and Aj have that capability of knocking him down, knocking him out.

I’D argue not.

I think you think if anything stands the more chance just because of tactically with his brain been out to somehow get around the size, but i would still have fury as the favorite 60.

40 for me, but it’s going to take a clever box.

Puncher, that’s going to stand any kind of chance.

If that is carla, quickly looks yes, it was.

It was after the schwartz fight uh, not shorts fighting, because that was the decay on the fourth round.

There was no problems with ben davis and then it was after the walling uh fight that john fury went absolutely ballistic, saying he was weak.

He was that there was nothing in his punches, there’s no uh.

It was just going absolutely by me and yes, that’s why? Ben davis was taking out the course out.

The corner um in with obviously um sugar hill steward and the rest is history literally um.

You know it goes back to mohammed ali.

I know we’re going away from fury, but you know it could be said with him when he was cassius clay.

I know he changed his name to muhammad ali before he didn’t accept the the draft into uh the army.

But if we, if we just say for argument’s sake, now clay before three and a half year, layoff an alley afterwards, you know is clay the better fighter than ali, because there’s a big weight difference between those i mean in in as ally or you know.

The second part he was never fighting at the early 190 pounds, never never never.

Never.

He came back.

It was around the two tens two 17s even went up into the two twenties in this uh.

Second, half of the career uh.

In fact, i think career heaviest was about two.

Don’T quote me on this 2 30.

In the last fight with um r.

i.

p canadian fighter, this one murdered by his nephew land, trooper burbick, yes, uh, r.

i.

p um, that was his last fight.

He was about 232.

He came in round the 270 mark for the the homes fight uh but drained that’s where you get the very infamous sound from angelo dundee light.

Isn’T right, but yeah.

I think the the light situation going back to fury um.

You know when he was in the first wilder fight and also the two fights in between.

He was too light after the eight stone loss and that’s what happened with ellie, because he had, by complete coincidence, three and a half years out in the ring as well.

Came back that little bit heavier um similarities there quite interesting, but um.

You know fury now or fury versus klitschko who’s, the best wow wow uh.

That’S a good question! Um! Absolutely! But you know what i’d argue.

I would argue age and experience counts.

It matters uh because that experience is bolstered by a team.

I would have to argue that over the years tyson fury has relied on a team to make him a better boxer.

He doesn’t just grow up naturally year after year becoming a better boxer.

So you know i’m gon na go, i’m i’m not! I’M i’m not wavering on this one uh.

I think i think tyson fury is at his peak right now and he can beat anyone right now, including i think he does pose more of a threat now uh, but the other thing i just want to before.

I forget this.

I think that all depends who he’s fighting as well.

You know, let’s say that he was going to have five fights you know.

Would he continue at this weight? Now? I don’t know, i think he would come in personally, i think he’d come in lighter and i just think he was this little bit heavier than the wilder two fight, because i think that was just a not so good camp uh, because you know as much as He was always being hefty um, and you know this this uh second carnation heavier fury.

That’S it was not quite the the bag of milk.

Now it wasn’t the last one um where i was moaning about uh wilder coming in seven pounds heavier.

Oh, my god, when he took the top off here, i thought okay, so he’s not coming in.

You know full-on, so maybe one will even out the other one but uh yeah.

It’S an interesting one.

You know you know, ally, let’s go back to ali, you know was he better as cassius clay, uh or the heavier alley after you know, dodging the draft um george foreman was a better first around or second time around it.

It’S.

You know it’s just the subject of weight and how it does or doesn’t help you, and i think that is the reason why i’m just bringing this up and focus on this is because then is bring that over to what we were saying in the beginning.

Is weight a big issue when we, when we’re comparing fury and fighters from the past, i don’t just think it’s the weight.

I think it’s like the things that you were bringing up at the beginning reach.

You know these are big deficits, that you could be the best boxer you know in the world, but there’s a reason why you know the best ever ever ever like heavyweight couldn’t touch a heavyweight, because if they were in their respective classes, you’ve got that weight to Overcome doesn’t matter how much skill level was there? That’S why bob foster who’s, probably one of the best light heavyweights have you ever went up to heavyweight loss to uh joe frazier, because of you’ve got that natural weight deficit, bearing in mind that uh joe frazier was not particularly heavy himself, as he stated earlier, or Big or anything in fact, um, you know, there’s weight, divisions and there’s weight disparities that will dictate uh the outcome or would put the huge block or uh.

You know barricade there that they’d have to get over before skill even comes into it, um fury versus.

I think anybody he could fit in as much as he might not be the best ever in history or whatever.

He certainly would hold his own just on size and stature get in skill with with anybody.

You know any error.

You cannot say that about many fighters.

No, no but i’ll tell you what you can add into this mix, and that is the use of technology.

I mean take.

Take a look at the that the advantage that today’s boxer has over yesteryears boxer.

They have technology, and i don’t mean uh power, punches or recording, speed of punches or movement.

I’M talking about just access to video, uh and being able to analyze your opponent before meeting him.

You know like in a day gone by.

That was not a factor.

You were trained at your level of skill and thrown into the ring, and you know that’s why there’s probably so much change over in terms of champions as the years went on throughout the 80s and 90s.

Nowadays, you have much more clinical clinically taught boxers, and now now you now, when you combine that uh with you, know size and reach that the fury has that he’s shown he’s capable of using like that is unstoppable.

That’S a juggernaut! Okay! I’M going to put you on the spot with something lettuce, lewis versus fury now: uh lannis lewis in his prime, when he won the uh gold for canada, yeah, canada, jamaica, england, okay, let’s call him whatever um and it is peaking in the pro, and it is Let’S say his peak was okay, probably a few fights under um being in with emmanuel stewart after his first loss with uh oliver mccall, that’s probably at his peak, not the one that was life or death with klitschko um, but a peak, a peak uh, a peak Lennox lewis yeah um yeah, that would be a good fight uh.

It would be a good fight uh.

As i mentioned earlier, lennox lewis comes in at what six five so he’s.

Still four and shorter um uh two inches shorter than uh wilder um less of a reach, but uh you know technically he might have it um.

You know given his shall we say shortcomings, but those in air quotes.

Lennox lewis just might have a chance in his prime against tyson fury today.

Um, i would argue, he’d have a chance one of the few, absolutely um.

Okay, let’s go to vladimir klitschko, although i know fury beat him.

Klitschko was the end of his career, and that was fury, the lighter version, but vladimir in his prime, and we shall say about 2010 for that.

What do you think the result would be um? That’S a good one.

I mean there’s completely different styles.

When you talk about uh, the the russians or the ukrainians, uh in particular, and then the styles that they’re bringing to boxing and they brought to boxing so if you’re talking about uh, that original style that the that hadn’t been seen, if you will again these these Guys came out of nowhere.

If you ask me uh, although enthusiasts might argue that, but at the end of the day, uh when you’re following the heavyweights, all of a sudden you’ve got two guys named klitschko and all of a sudden, you know uh they’re putting ukraine on the map.

If you will and it’s due their different style, they brought a different style to the game.

So would a tyson fury without access to video without having you know, just plop them in the ring together without knowing each other.

That would be a pretty interesting matchup.

Quite frankly, interesting hard to call but again uh size and reach might have some impact um because, as i said earlier, today’s tyson fury proved to me on the weekend.

He’S he’s he’s one tough cookie.

I mean he can take the punch and he can give the punch, and you know he got up – he got up from his knockdowns and uh came back uh with a fury last build boxing by the way.

Vitali is next.

How i see it with vladimir? You had the obviously when fury fought him fury was the one that was keeping his distance yep and he was.

It was a boxing masterclass.

Now, if you had fury.

Okay vladimir was looking 40 at the end of endish and whatever his career was.

There was just one fight afterwards with a bigger fury.

He wouldn’t be fighting in that style.

It would be more of a stand-up and it would be a physical fight.

One thing that vladimir had a big issue with is endurance, and what do we have here? We have fury the endurance zapper with his leaning, bear in mind that uh klitschko vladimir used to lean on.

He was the king of leaning on people right, i mean the the worst.

I was about to say the best example.

The worst example was against um povetkin.

When the distance was when yetkin was unbeaten and got, it was something like 10 knockdowns, but it wasn’t from punches.

It was from him leaning on him or just clubbing after leaning um.

You know, vladimir.

That was one of the big things that manny taught him and how to use his size after a few defeats – and i just think the bearing in mind that is furious forte.

If you is the bigger one and now the heavier one.

I think that that would be with vladimir completely negated, and i think that would be an easy fight for fury the one that i think that you would have problems with is vitale never been down harder punch.

Even if he’s not a one punch artist right, um tall long levers, that would be probably the only one of two or three fighters that would better give, i think, just in my opinion, fury problems, and that would be a very good fight.

You know uh vitaly were just going with whoever, regardless of the size, and he did very well against tall fighters, and there was no issue.

He had power.

You know every box was ticked apart from just not the exciting.

In any way it wasn’t a talker.

Wasn’T the quickest wasn’t the flashiest he was just consistent, but what he did worked um for the fact that he uh, like a lot of the heavyweights mentioned earlier, was able to go away and come back and appear to be as good as ever.

No different see what, when he retired or semi-retired every time he was given, the could have never been able to pronounce it the demetrius or whatever it’s probably way off by the wbc meaning he could go back at any time and directly fight for the wb site.

Uh wbc title, which he did with samuel peter uh, come back and he ruled the roost again and then uh.

The rest again is history.

That’S somebody that fury would struggle with.

That would be good and – and i didn’t know this until uh, while you were speaking – i just checked – i didn’t realize that vitaly was actually six foot.

Seven yeah he’s that little bit taller than vladimir.

When you see them two side by side.

You just got that little difference there, yeah um, okay, next person, let’s go back um yeah, you see, hollyfield did struggle with larger fighters um.

You know he.

He lost a bow in the first fight um as much as he came in it’s a good thing how they come back from defeats heavier.

That’S the one thing that manny stewart did with hollyfield was actually bulk him up further, but in the rematch with bo uh.

Hollyfood was heavier and so was bo, and it was a majority decision win for hollyfield, but as much as holyfield did win, it uh bo kind of lost it with the help of a guy parachuting into the ring.

Um yeah bo knocked him out the third fight.

What other big fighters did? Uh holyfield fight, uh valuev actually had mollyfield winning that fight, but uh how the hell they had valley with winning that i really don’t know.

I’Ve watched that two or three times i just cannot cannot give it to him, but um.

That aside um it’s the bigger people, that’s what caused you know, hollywood.

The problem! That’S why there was the problem with uh tyson.

Let’S go back further uh, let’s say: oh boy, chinese yonah brings up a good point.

There.

Chinese yoda says uh holy phil got beat by fat old man, james tony yeah.

He was unfortunately past his best, oh uh yeah, because that was in 2003.

[, Music ].

You know he he was past his best, then yeah uh.

What was that you had? The two losses to lewis then he lost to uh donald uh.

What’S his name uh larry donald, i don’t think it was on points.

Then it was the tony fight or something yeah.

He got uh clocked by that one uh.

He was just on his way down.

For somebody to to draw win and uh lose to uh ruiz uh yeah.

Now he was uh.

He hung around way too long uh, as we saw at 57 the other week as we uh yeah.

That’S a different story trying to think so: okay, tyson against fury.

How would you see that mike tyson hmm? Did we talk about that yep? What would you think would be the answer? Um ty mike tyson – i don’t know, i’m not gon na say it was a.

Was a one he was a really great.

I really enjoyed mike tyson prior to all of his let’s say: troubles um, you know, and so when he was in his prime and he was just knocking out guys left right and center, he was a joy to watch an absolute joy to watch.

He was ferocious in the ring.

Absolutely ferocious people were generally afraid of him um, but even at that level, could he bite and beat tyson fury? I would argue: no, that’s the one where i’ve got a question mark um.

It would be a big deficit uh.

What is he is? He is he five? What’S he’s 510 supposedly 510, his average fighting weight was around the 216 mark and that was very consistent.

It only ever went up, i think, at the tail end of the uh.

No, it was the 2000s.

He started going up to the 230 mark.

I came in, i think, to 233.

I think, was his heaviest heaviest weight uh but yeah.

It’S just that size deficit.

Okay, let’s go back further, let’s say harry holmes hang on.

I would just argue, though, that mike tyson uh would come out fast and furious, and and and he got his knockouts by surprise like he would surprise the opposition by how furious he could fight um.

So if, but that’s what i had said would give uh deontay wilder his advantage if he was going to exploit it at all, it was to come out fast and furious in those early rounds and and then try to try to rely on that uh devastating right.

Uh, otherwise he was gon na lose and that’s ultimately, what happened uh mike tyson.

I don’t he’s he he’s too small uh.

I don’t think he could.

I don’t think he was he known as an inside fighter.

I don’t think so.

Yes, absolutely yeah the times.

He was yes in his peak, he was yeah okay, so i don’t think he he was the complete, apart from sizing, a complete package.

Well, you know three years 85 to 88, so in that case uh you you’d have to argue that a usic would fit into that package and uh attempt to to fight tyson fury on the inside.

So yeah good luck to him! Yeah! Good luck for that one! So we said i could just thought: i’d be a buchi if that we’ve got to pronounce that where there’s different ways of pronouncing it yeah, that’s one of the wasted biggest wasted talents ever he seemed to have it all until uh was he was put inside for Uh, i think woman, assault or rape or something funny thing is he’s, been released and he’s, even speaking about a uh comeback.

That was about six months ago, but it’s not going to happen.

Uh he’s very muscular he’s been training, while he’s been inside um, but there was nothing there of any kind of substance to certainly warrant writing about it.

Yet he was just there recording in the hallway to his flat or something saying that his great shape he’s gon na make a comeback.

We shall see, but no that’s too many years, but god he was great.

I mean to uh, i mean no.

I know john ruiz wasn’t exactly top tier, but nobody did that to john louise.

What was it 19 seconds? I think he was carried by with ibubuchi um beat a lot of the fights knocked out chris bird, which is something that didn’t happen and uh the new zealand chap as well tour, and he had him when tua was raging.

Um i’d be richie that biggest waste of talent.

Shame because he was good.

He ticked every box, absolutely big, shame! Okay, let’s go back and let’s get really sentimental: okay, uh larry holmes, uh uh! On a personal level, i really enjoyed larry holmes.

I remember him.

Quite quite well as a young man, not him, but me as a young man uh in the ring, so he he exuded a really great personality.

So i enjoyed uh watching his fights and hoped for a good outcome for him personally um.

But again i thought he fought on um [, Music ], not adrenaline per se, but uh the the rush of the fight.

If you will and not to say that he wasn’t trained not to say that he wasn’t any good, not to say that he didn’t have any skill he did, but he emotional, he was an emotional boxer.

If you ask me to watch him anyway and therefore you know toss the coin, he might be able to win that fight, that night, uh or not uh depending on and how he was.

I don’t know feeling um you know was he the type of guy? I don’t know he seemed to be – i don’t know emotionally flat, uh very well guarded so anyway.

So so it’s a hard question.

I don’t think you’d have that that fire uh that is absolutely required to go up against a guy like tyson fury.

I just don’t think larry holmes would have it uh.

In that sense, i think tim answer from that question would be an interesting one because obviously he shared the ring with uh holmes pushed him very hard.

Actually over 15 rounds curious to hear his remarks about that.

Obviously, with him being from that era, when he was at his peak that would be interesting.

Uh i’ve seen things with tommy morrison coming up.

No, no.

He had thing with morrison just an opinion.

He did have stamina issues again.

You’Ve got somebody now with fury.

Who is a stamina, sapping juggernaut, um that would be you know? Morrison would only be effective early uh.

He would.

He would lose his stamina, which was his issue.

You know took him what he pushed lewis quite well, but that was what’s it a sixth round loss.

Um, stamina would be a problem just the opinion.

So let’s i just want to quickly go back to larry holmes because uh again, while you’re clicking away here – and i didn’t realize this um so larry holmes who held that wbc heavyweight title from 78-83.

So i’ve been university in that time anyway.

During that title reign, he defended his title against 19 opponents, the second most in history behind joe lewis.

I did not realize that yep he did very well until he ran into michael spinks right and sphinx beat him twice.

The funny thing with holmes’s career he was um.

You know he lost two sphinx twice retired, come back in 88 to fight tyson, got sparked in the fourth round after doing reasonably.

Well now that was he was 38 at that point, but then made a comeback against the fighter: tim uh, tim dock anderson and this last sort of period of time.

His last fight was against uh eric butterbean ash.

I think that’s uh.

I think it’s 2 000.

His last fight, but throughout that comeback, when he was considered way way way past his best, he went the distance with hollyfield and pushed him quite well uh.

He went in with oliver mccall before bruno defeated.

Him pushed him quite well and he would lose.

I mean, for example, he lost against uh brian nielsen, the danish boxer, but he held his own.

He beat a lot of not top tier fighters, but people that sort of fringe.

He was at that level for years.

He did so well, which was remarkable and bear in mind.

He was you, know, uh considered way way way past his best at 38.

.

That goes goes back to what i said earlier, how they started sort of being able to go on a lot later later on.

In their career uh, that was remarkable because he he was able to uh hold it uh.

So much one thing actually about homes.

I don’t, if you ever notice, did you see the homes versus hollyfood? Fine, i’m going to say.

Probably did you notice at the end as soon as the bell rang, were you talking the 80s uh? No, that was 93.

93 rematch 93, so it could have been um [, Music ].

I think it was 93 93 and 94 anyway haven’t got a computer open um, since he turned around he absolutely projectile vomited.

It’S something! That’S just quite a never seen that happen with a fighter.

The bell rang turned around everywhere, bearing in mind he did quite well against hollyfield, it’s another remarkable um, i’m curious when you’re wrong with tim next.

Try, if you can to ask him uh what his views are against.

You know with him.

You know sort of uh holmes and the fighters from around that period of time.

Yeah these these fighters were very much 215 to 2.

225 max was a lot of their weights unless you were tony tubbs when they’d come in around 240s or greg page, because you had a lot of lazy heavyweights in the early 80s that were putting on weight and that’s why the the title uh less you know, Apart from the wbc one which was held for so long by holmes, it was the rest of them.

Uh was just going from fight to the fight to the fighter, just because of weight and lack of training and motivation.

Um, i’m going to say it sorry if you’re going to watch at some point tim included um, i’m sure you know that situation with the chat with him better than uh better than most okay, so that was holmes.

Okay, let’s get really sentimental ally.

Let’S upset some people, the greatest the greatest of all time, um wow.

You know why? Because then you you just don’t have that experience and and he was a cruiserweight – not a bridge away, not a heavyweight to put it to put a young uh young fighter like cassius clay whomever into the ring right now against tyson fury is uh homicide, um, cassius Clay would not be able to beat now could uh, okay, muhammad ali mohammed elite in his prime okay.

So second, so after the three and a half years out, uh he lost say joe frazier.

The fight of the century was on points and he seemed to improve from um.

He could be argued.

Probably the best from the second fraser fight to his last best fight was either the foreman fight or obviously the threat of manila.

He was never the same after that, let’s say around the joe frazier.

This is the second fight where he was probably at his peak at that point or uh just about up to age 32.

When he beat foreman bear in mind his weight then would have been.

This is just a guess.

It probably would have been about the two uh 215 mark.

I probably would have thought 250 220, maybe actually um, so with those stats at the peak as such.

What do you think? So? This is where uh you know.

I take stock in my comment earlier when it comes to technique and being innovative on your feet in the ring, and that’s what exactly what muhammad ali was great at uh adjusting to whoever he was fighting at that moment.

Uh it’s! You know you only have to watch uh one of those fights.

I can’t remember where he was.

You know bouncing off the ropes coming back, dodging the you know, and no one had ever seen that before ever i mean this was this was like what the heck is.

He doing you know, but at the end you couldn’t get away with that kind of innovation.

In today’s ring against tyson fury, he’s too big he’s too good uh he for a big guy.

He defends incredibly well.

Yes, he leaves himself open from time to time, as we saw on saturday, but still can take that punch.

So, at the end of the day, could muhammad ali in his prime, not cassius, clay muhammad ali in his prime defeat tyson fury.

My answer no completely agree absolutely too much of a deficit um.

It would be interesting, but i just it’s.

You know it’s this thing where you know it used to be from fury and the people beating this drum used to be.

Oh greatest of all time would have you know, or you know anybody who’s good over the past 15.

20 years.

I would have you know, sort of stood up to anybody in history or the rest of it.

Now this is the first time i could say it with louis probably, but this is really the first time we could actually say god actually and a lot of people won’t want to actually agree that this is the case, but he actually probably would most all maybe And the problem is with a lot of these fighters that we’re now talking about is there’s nothing, there’s nothing to base uh well, he did well against this big fighter of six six or six seven.

There is nothing now to at all i mean you could say with holmes that uh cooney was what six five um, but there’s nothing with these old fighters, where there’s anything against anyone big to even sort of try and have some evidence you know for their.

You know with their their side with you know, arguing their case because they just weren’t.

You know that was cruiserweights, knocking out, cruiserweights or or right bridger weight um.