90’s vs current heavyweights: who would win? | Boxen247 with Kristian | Talkin Fight
EPISODE: Episode 11
Following on from the Lennox Lewis versus today’s best, Graeme and Kristian today talk about how the great heavyweights of the 90’s would fair against the current heavyweight champions and contenders; according to SportBible the Top Ten now are:
#10 Michael Hunter
#9 Luiz Ortiz
#8 Joe Joyce
#7 Oleksandr Usyk
#6 Joseph Parker
#5 Andy Ruiz Jr
#4 Dillian Whyte
#3 Deontay Wilder
#2 Anthony Joshua
#1 Tyson Fury
According to The Grueling Truth blog, the top ten of the 90’s are:
#10 Ike Ibeabuchi
#9 Larry Holmes
#8 Mike Tyson
#7 Tommy Morrison
#6 Ray Mercer
#5 Michael Moorer
#4 George Foreman
#3 Riddick Bowe
#2 Evander Holyfield
#1 Lennox Lewis
#boxing #talkinfight #lennoxlewis #boxen247
Watch live on TalkinFight.com or YouTube.com/c/TalkinFight
[, Music, ], [, Music, ], hello, there, boxing fans around the world.
Thank you for joining us once again for another.
What’S going to be a great episode, i know because it is filled with very big names.
I’Ve i’ve never seen two lists of such great names, but here we go.
Let let me just introduce christian from boxing 247 how you doing oh good, all good, all right! Listen, i’m doing pretty good very actually very good, today, um very, very good, very, very good! Yes, i just got off uh a big meeting with uh an investor and uh.
It’S great news on our part uh and will help us grow our business good, all good stuff.
But getting back to our news of the day episode number 19.
, the 90s versus the current heavyweights who would win? I couldn’t believe it when i, when i got in the door, and i saw that i went wow.
What are we gon na say? Listen.
This is who we’re gon na talk about.
As of yesterday’s uh list from sport bible the top 10 these days – and i have to say, is dillian white still in that top ten, but anyway, number 10 michael hunter number, nine, louise ortiz number, eight joe joyce number.
Seven alexander yousick number six joseph parker number: five andy ruiz, jr number: four dillian white number: three deontay wilder number two anthony joshua topping list at number, one tyson fury, but if we go back to the 90s according to the grueling truth, this is a beauty number.
Ten ike ibiabuchi number nine larry holmes number eight nick tyson number, seven tommy morrison number, six ray mercer number: five michael moorer number: four george foreman number: three riddick beau number: two evander hoyfield number one lennox lewis! So where do we start? Can you repeat that second top ten, because that was just music to my ears? Absolutely that was just something else very refreshing as well, instead of the usual bunch of banditos, which have been bounced around all the time at the moment, yes and my feelings on that.
Exactly will be uh shed in a moment right on, so i i leave this discussion in your hands.
Where do you want to begin with this one? Well, the list for a start doesn’t compare now uh in in many ways in the how they are as fighters and their resume as well, and a lot of people are very aware that over here in the uk, you have eddie hearn who’s, always going about anthony Joshua’S resume for some reason now being fair that maybe uh the resume is good, considering what is out there at the moment and what is out there as such.
He has effectively faced, and the resume is a lot compared to some of the other fighters.
But it is a poor resume, it is people that have never been has beans and if it was, i think, as we said this yesterday, if it was a good name, there was an if but or something about it.
Usually it’s the case of their very old now as much as – and this is something that just sprang into my mind.
Now, as i mentioned, the the words of very old how a fighter in the 90s went into an elder or a regarded elder age and was able to compete at a good level.
Um is absolutely astounding.
You know first name larry holmes.
Okay, he come back.
You know in 1988 to fight tyson.
He put up a decent-ish struggle um.
So what how old was he? Then? He was 30 about 38 and 88, roughly 37 38.
Anyway, he had the two losses only to michael spinks.
He was two years out the ring uh.
He put a stiff challenge: he lost um by a devastating ko, and the funny thing is that everyone back then assumed that we start with larry holmes.
That was going to be it for him.
That’S him done dusted off into the sunset.
He goes but no there’s a bit of time which elapsed uh he came back in.
I do believe 1991.
I remember the opponent.
Well, it was somebody called tim doc, anderson who’s currently in jail at the moment for a very long story, and actually it’s a book that i recommend to you graeme and anybody out there.
If you want to read a very good book about donking and everything that was going on in the early 90s, with bert cooper, with the american football player mark, gastineau, etc, and there was a huge story of fight fixing of dragon of murder.
Of it’s called year.
Of the locusts, it is a book which is astounding, i’m gon na have to read it again, um great, read the way it’s written, but the information and the skullduggery that came out which completely makes sense.
It’S not a case of like a book you read and like no.
No that’s not, though this was and it fitted in with everything that was going back then um.
It was because there’s a lot of things going on um.
You know, fighters taking dives so that mark gastineau could remain um.
You know unbeaten so that they could arrange a fight with him and george foreman.
There are so many things that were going on.
You know it everything just led to murder.
That’S your locust right back on track, larry holmes.
He came back against him, doc anderson and he went on them.
Just get my thumbs and fingers out.
He went on roughly for another 10 years because i think he retired in 2000, with the last fight being eric butterbean, but he went through he typed.
He um went for the world title twice after um in his 40s, that was against van hollyfield and oliver mccall.
Both close fights both obviously going to the distance, but he even fought to a very good level and only beat in what was regarded as the time as the best and never by knockout, he’s only on points.
People like denmark’s brian nielsen and so on, um, and it was great to see that how he was in 2000, when he retired at age, nearly 50.
Whatever it was uh, he might have been 52.
I should have checked, but he you know, left the sport on a high with a win over okay bit of a dodgy opponent, but eric you know, butterbean.
That is still a name now that was larry holmes.
He then had evander hollyfield, the bearing in mind.
Evander hollyfield was regarded as washed up over the hill used goods after the first um.
What was that? The first bow defeat, so that was back in 1992.
he came back.
He was regarded.
He hooked up with manny stewart.
He was regarded as done washed up with the rest of it.
He had a points victory over alex stewart.
He then had him go into the rematch with beau the good old fight, the second one where you had the uh.
What do they call it? The fan man, which was the chapel, need the paraglider uh enter the fight midway, uh god what a aspect, what a thing that was uh, remember watching that live crazy and get somebody with uh if you’ve never seen it just put.
Holly full bow to um.
Put fan man in there and you’ll see this power.
Was it a power glider a power, a chat with a parachute and he’s got a big, great big motor on his back and uh? Yes, he landed just he didn’t quite get into the ring.
He went into the ropes and then went back.
Then he had a load of fans.
I think uh kicked the absolute hell out of him before the police got hold of him and escorted him out, but as far as crazy things in the ring, that was one that will right up there absolutely but hollyfield back to uh back to him and not The fan man um, he beat bow bow, came in a little bit he’s sort of softer.
He didn’t train as hard.
You then had obviously the third fight um later on, but these quality names hollyfield went on and he went all the way through the 90s.
Even to the point of he retired in 2000, and god it’s either 2009 or 2011, the last fight being actually challenging for a world title.
No, it wasn’t.
He fought after that.
Sorry, it was against franz botha um bit of a sloppy fight.
It was an awful display by both of them, but hollyfield was way way way gone, but still that version of hollyfield late 40s, whatever it was, could compete at a high um high level.
He even went in with valuev the wba champion at the time and as much as um.
You know, you know: valuev had twice beaten.
John ruiz yeah, david haye, finally beat him in the next fight, but you know he was still.
You know a champion a bit of a laugh, but one in some respect, but he he put a lot of people away.
You look at his his resume.
It’S actually not that bad, especially compared to people now um just had to get that one in the course now hollyfield went in with him, and that was probably something like second to last fight is right at the end and he was robbed to the decision.
There’S no way that he lost, but i don’t know if they did it they’re trying to get him out the sport, so he didn’t carry on a lot of people were accusing that much like um when muhammad ali fought his last fight against burbank, where he did Really well but uh.
The decision went against him, even if it was a very close fight.
A draw would have been good uh, but a lot of people said that ali won that fight but got the decision.
They there’s possibly without jumping on some bandwagon of of conspiracy, that they give the decision against them to try and get them out of sport for their own good.
Maybe maybe not whatever.
The point is, is that fighters from the 90s they could go through to a late age and still compete at a great level fighters now, in their 30s, are struggling at elite level and as soon as you reach approaching 40, unless you’re louie or lose or tease That, when you’re 42 or 52, whatever or somewhere in between um, he fights for the height, no, he doesn’t actually even fight at a higher level who’s.
His best win.
The best win is going to be a ninth round ko over bryant jennings.
What the hell he hasn’t fought.
Anybody he’s lost twice the world up, stiff resistance, but he’s one of the top contenders.
You know in every top 10 that you will read out from now he’s fought nobody wilder in all those defenses really um.
He has fought nobody.
You know we talk about brazil x, american football player, um, you know it’s not really a no, but you know he’s nobody, unfair.
Okay, let’s get real with this.
The level, then, is nothing like it is now the way they box now is not like how it was then they’re, not fluid they’re, not it’s crazy.
Now i had a background plan earlier on.
I had it was highlights and the surrounding circumstances of the tyson douglas fight and as much as buster douglas okay.
He beat tyson for his first loss.
He lost it in his first defense against vander hollyfield, but the manner in which he was boxing hollyfield.
He wasn’t sorry tyson, he wasn’t a top top tier fighter, but this was a 231 pound fighter that was moving fluidly.
If it’s the right word, his movement was fluid and a lot of the heavy weights then were, and that is the difference.
You know it’s one thing: having six foot, six, seven and being slightly robotic or if you lie to you know a bit of a boxer, but they just don’t punch, they don’t move in the same way.
Okay, let’s take fury on the equation because he is you know in a class of his own.
You know go back to yesterday’s discussion.
He will, you know, stand up to anybody in history, especially the one that went into the klitschko that would possibly outbox anybody.
Any generation would it be ali whether it be tyson or hollyfield.
He has a chance with anybody, but the fighters now are just nothing compared to 10 years ago.
What do you think sorry of the 90s? Rather, what do you think? I have to wonder.
Given your insight and what you’ve just said, whether money has a factor to play in the longevity of the careers of those boxes from the 90s they weren’t making.
As much as you eloquently pointed out, some of the managers and agents were making a hell of a lot more than the boxers themselves, keeping them in the game a lot longer, possibly because they knew these guys would fight um, regardless of the outcome.
So i think today’s battles are changing considerably and you get a lot of guys moving up the ranks relatively quickly.
Now there is a bit of a deadlock but they’re, making a lot more money as boxers due to pay-per-view than the guys back in the 90s were when don king was writing checks.
So what part of me or not right right, do i just have to wonder tim on that one story here: no, no! No! He he’s pretty honest, he’s pretty blunt about uh his relationship with donald king uh for sure um anyway.
But that’s what i’m wondering i’m wondering if it’s uh, not that it’s easier today to make money.
But, let’s just say: uh deontay wilder got into the game uh to provide medical bills paid for for his daughter.
Okay, let’s just say, and now he’s fought x number of battles.
He’S one x number lost tax number, but he’s made enough money he can quit.
He can retire and how old is he you know? Could he keep on fighting for a few more years absolutely, but does he need to no should he retire because of his health? Yes, but that’s another matter.
There are plenty of examples out there of current boxers who make a ton of money right now who retire probably earlier, because they don’t need the money anymore.
A good one might be tyson fury.
Quite frankly, he could probably continue boxing if he really wanted to, but a does he want to and b does, i think, there’s a story out there where he gave away his first purse winnings eight million pounds to the homeless.
So i don’t know, there’s no proof of it apparent.
Apparently that was offered and i’m just gon na go by what is known, he’s been accused of not doing it and there’s been no information to show that he did leave it there.
Apparently he didn’t, but that’s a apparently ah so so there’s i don’t know like that.
There’S my simplistic view of longevity in the game, comparing the 90s fighters to today’s fighters and i think money has a lot to do with it.
Uh tim witherspoon, for example, uh continued to fight because he needed the money um you know and i’m sure he can give us a long list of names of fighters that aren’t on any of our lists, who fought well into their mid 40s because they needed the Money, however little it was, they needed it um.
You know they weren’t on social assistance, although fighting in a fight back then might have been called social assistance but uh what they were, they weren’t they weren’t getting the money that these guys are getting today.
So i just have to wonder whether you know you’re seeing a different class of fighter today, because the money is available to them, whether they win or lose they’re going to make a lot of money.
Whereas back then that’s why you see uh who’s, that chap coming up who’s got the 77 victories.
We were just talking about him.
Yesterday, the guy who’s, the guy’s returning to the ring, got 77 victories.
I said: wow, that’s a long career um.
You know to amass that kind of uh number of victories, uh and and yet he’s entering the ring as part of some celebrity challenge or whatever.
But the point matter is: is you don’t see fighters today with records of oh james, tony? Yes, yep? Oh there we go james, so you don’t see guys today, with records of 77, wins 20 losses, and three draws.
You don’t see that today, so i just have to wonder whether it’s money, you know well to put it into context um.
So i do agree with you um a top fight back.
In i mean a lot of the fights were very much 15 million 10 million back then you know there’s none of this sort of 60 million for fury 40 million for wilder.
That’S that’s not heard of to put it in one.
You know into context where i’m going to be exactly the information tyson versus sphinx.
Now tyson got 13 million for that and sphinx, i do believe, got nine um, so that was 1988 um so, and that was a big fight.
That would be the same kind of magnitude as um.
You know the few rewilder fights so with interest and all the rest of it added on um.
What do you think, but but ask yourself like how many of those fighters who made that kind of money were able to retire comfortably retaining x amount of income at their early 30s.
Absolutely completely agree, yes, so, at the end of the day, something in the in the world of economics with respect to boxing has changed um and it’s changed the dynamics of the game.
The game now is played by not older kg veterans uh, but i don’t know it’s like like, like we discussed yesterday, whether they’re, true boxers or just punchers, or guys, who are willing to enter a slugfest.
Why? Because they get paid so much money, and so therefore, are they any really good? The answer might be no they’re, not very good boxers.
Do they provide entertainment at a heavyweight level and the answer to that would be yes, and you could you know it seems to me there’s a different quality of fan, for example uh over there in britain compared to america.
I would argue that the the american audiences enjoy a good slugfest uh, i’m just going to generalize and say the british audience prefer a decent boxing match.
It’S that good old thing where you have i’ve, never used these words.
I hate using it, but it’s used a lot now for whatever the casual fan and the the hardcore fan, um everyone seems to sort of throw sort of stones at each other within the boxing fraternity about what everybody uh likes and doesn’t like and how it should Be i just think all of this goes completely agree with you with the money.
I think, but then again, why isn’t there so many people coming through? As far as i know, um, i can’t see these now but go back a number of years ago.
There was more or there’s less people coming through the amateur system, the quality isn’t there and i don’t know why the quality isn’t there, because the money appears to be there.
Now, if you go back to 1984 back to the olympics, you had the the golden uh year for um america, where you had evander hollyfield, you had tyrell biggs, you had meldrick taylor, you had pernell whitaker, it was um mark breland.
These were fighters that were all gold, medalists bar hollyfield, who was bronze, but he should have got gold, but then again he did uh have a questionable foul against uh fighter.
Actually that was um david parker’s trainer, uh, sorry, um, parker’s, trainer uh.
What’S his name, kevin barry yeah, so he clocked him a little bit too late.
So that’s why you got a bronze medal.
Otherwise you definitely would have got gold.
But when you look at the the competition there with you know, you don’t have from any country these big teams coming away with consistent gold medals.
You know when you see and tell me if i’m wrong here, uh, i’m not a big one on amateur, but i haven’t seen a country celebrate so many like us that year and those fighters went through to be great.
You know in the late 80s into the 90s um.
It was a magical time kicking off from that year in the amateurs and seoul was, was quite good um and these people filtered through and to me, you just the amateur system at the moment with um going through to the olympics, doesn’t enthuse me in the same Way as it used to you used to be able to tell who’s definitely gon na go through my god.
That was a really good team.
Really they got eight gold medals, fantastic, you just don’t see it anymore and that filters through and another because this has just been coming to my head as i’ve just been thinking about it.
It’S okay use my words right.
It appears to be easier, and i’m going to use your example of the auntie wilder that wasn’t hadn’t boxed that had issues with his daughter.
So it’s right, i need to earn some money.
I’M going to be a boxer goes through turns pro goes through world champion.
Yes, there’s some natural power there, all the rest of it, but it appears at the moment for whatever reason that you can get into it quicker easier, the same thing with anthony joshua, another example.
Yes, okay, there is an amateur background, but he joined you know the amateur system as a boxer very late.
You know and that’s why he improved greatly, but you know from his pro debut because he was actually learning on the spot through to obviously becoming top tier of now um it it just doesn’t ring the same.
It’S not the same as what you had back then in the 80s that filtered through into the 90s, and i think this is going to be a factor as well.
But what is the factor? I don’t know because of it you they used to throw around say, go back five six years ago that the money isn’t there.
So it’s not attracting the fighters.
But to me the money is there, you know it’s: okay, top tier! Definitely there and you know when you hear some of the um some of the the amounts of money which fighters are turned down.
I’M not going to give exact examples, but there was one heavyweight that um turned down a fight, because five hundred thousand dollars was too little but in mind.
It was the world title, it wasn’t even a top top fight.
It was just under um, uh world level turned down 500 000 because it wasn’t enough that to me is a lot of money.
Yes, i know boxes put their life on the line and that could be the last one, because that could be a damaging fight to them and all the rest of it.
Yes, but that’s regarded as little money fighters would fight for that before, and it’s as if this is this is just what’s going through a reminder to talk about it.
It’S i don’t know if it’s a spoiled um period of time.
There seems to be because there’s all these stories going around at the moment with michael hunter that turned down a number of fights, he turned down uh an ibf eliminator with philip hergovich um.
You had there’s been a number of fighters which have turned fights down now.
I know a lot of them are trying to keep their record because of what’s going on at the top and as per the discussions that we’ve had leading up to today.
With you know their waiting and waiting and waiting.
Because it’s clogged at the top and it’s filtering down the system and down the the rankings of the fighters, but i don’t know spoil – is that the right word you know, because fighters back then, and the example you said with tim they had to fight they needed.
The money they would take the money they were active.
You know not this, you know one fight every year or one fight every three years or i know you had covid and i know you’ve had arbitration with fury and wilder, but a lot of them are inactive.
Go back to tyson.
How many times did he fight when he wants the championship? You know he was there with the other champions, um unifying the titles straight away and that they were all ranked up.
I know he was a specific unification series they had, but that was all snapped up and sorted out all very quickly.
You’D never get that now.
Nobody would agree to it.
Nobody would fight that.
Often training camp won’t be long enough really, but then go back further.
It appears the longer or the further we go back, the more you know: uh fights they would have more active, they were, you know, is activity anything to do with it.
Then you know um, but then the mentality of fighters, as you go back in time, was different, where a loss on your record wasn’t um.
That bad i mean look at james tony.
He was old school, he had 77 wins, but but there’s yeah somebody losses on there, but you can’t deny that he is one of the best all-time fighters who won championships between middleweight and heavyweight.
You know what the hell um some losses on his record haven’t uh done him any harm in any way, he’s regarded as an all-time great.
Okay, he’s coming back way too late, waiting whatever to get whatever money he’s given out with that fight with jeremy williams.
But it’s an all-time great, but he would go down as that and he was very active fighting anybody as they were the further you go back in time in the 90s.
I cannot think of there’s one okay, there’s only one fight in the 90s that i can remember where somebody actually dodged somebody, and that was ridic bow when he refused to fight linux lewis, and that was the infamous um situation where he threw the wbc belt.
In the bin, instead of uh, you know uh fighting lewis defending the title, then lewis obviously went into with razer ruddock for the the vacant title as such.
No, it wasn’t.
She wasn’t vacant title they had eliminator prior, but because bo ditched it he was then upgraded.
Um because he was then going to be the mandatory after that right um that was such a good fight for linux, lewis, second round of uh razer ruddock, who was still raging at the time after those two tyson fights good result.
Um, it’s just different than more active.
I think left sport, i think less spawn.
I think there was more coming through um and i think that is why you had better fighters than compared to now where it seems to be selective, there’s less coming through um.
The money is there.
I remember it was about five five six eight years ago, they said that the money wasn’t there, and so there was i’d love to go back and find out the exact stats and um everything else.
But this was the general consensus.
Well, if it was then a few years ago, it certainly isn’t now because there’s a lot of good paydays out there.
I don’t know, am i wrong right, uh, no and the added uh equation here.
Is you know you, you had fighters fighting in the ring for those in attendance versus today fighters fighting for an audience? They can’t see or hear um.
You know, and you have to wonder whether there’s a tangible level of excitement or general adrenaline rush for those fighters.
Back in the 90s and any arab into history, fighting in front of a crowd, um, you know is it that exciting that it keeps them in the game longer because they they live for that rush um, as opposed to today, where they don’t really hear it um.
I’M generalizing, but i’m just thinking to myself as you’re talking.
You know that is that another intangible there, these guys, don’t really walk into a ring uh with screaming fans, especially during cove past couple years.
You know they’re they’re, but they get a huge paycheck out of it.
That’S that’s the that’s the funny thing uh in terms of a reversal of fortune, so to speak, um but yeah.
I’M i’m thinking along the same lines here like back.
In the day you had fighters who lived to fight and wanted to fight and enjoyed fighting uh.
Now you see an awful lot of uh behind the scenes: jos, jostling and even uh – i’m i don’t know about you, but this dillian white injury has got me back.
You know i’m kind of i’m very confused.
Why, if it’s? That is the serious situation.
Why a doctor wouldn’t make the announcement like? Why isn’t a doctor putting his name on the line here and saying after examining dillian white uh, i can tell you uh from a medical perspective, he’s unable to fight period.
You know why is this coming? You know we don’t even know what apparently don’t even know his shoulder’s injured, let alone if it’s injured, but i’m just saying like yeah, i i don’t know you’ll see you will see fury versus wyatt’s announced.
There won’t be any i’ll put this in a post earlier.
There’Ll be uh, no uh delayed dates or rescheduled for rotter walling uh, see wilder just go straight in with fury the winner goes in with the winner of aj and music definitely watch this space.
You heard it here.
First, it’s difficult to work out.
Well, it’s interesting because you know, quite frankly, if wallen had beaten, white and young walling put up a good fight against tyson fury there, so i would have liked to have seen wallen uh go back into a rematch against fury.
Quite frankly, the problem is with wallin.
It’S another fly in the ointment: to stop a all british clash clash because they’re hoping i’m banking on ajb to music and if white fights, fury well white’s, gon na win or fury’s gon na win.
There’S your old brick clash, but if wallin upset the after apple cart, because it was for me anyway, a 50 50 fight lots of questions no foregone conclusion at all with that fight.
Um that could have just uh upset the cart, because they are that confident on the the aj side of things that um he’s going to reverse that defeat.
So but uh look for that to happen.
Uh, i’m not saying at all for certain that uh white is is not uh hasn’t got an injury, i’m not saying that’s definitely the case, but regardless look for white to get a direct shot at fury, because that is being mooted at the moment.
That was actually mooted before the cancellation.
The cancellation came out with the injury two and two equals exactly.
I have to wonder too uh with respect to the 90s uh and the emergence of uh tv and cable right, syndication rights um, whether that affected the longevity aspect.
As well, there was greater demand because the television the broadcasters in america especially had um, i think it’s called friday night fights and you had to have big name clashes.
So you know younger, lighter fighters, weren’t going to attract the same attention or draw the same audience as to well-known heavyweights.
So having those help well-known heavyweights, the larry holmeses of the world um, they were a big draw on television back then um, some young heavyweight would not have that same drawing power.
So i wonder if that would add to the milia of reasons as to why their careers were much longer than the careers of heavyweights.
Today, it would seem – and i think what i’m about to say will fit in with what i was saying and what you were saying.
It’S as if – and this obviously doesn’t apply to everybody, but i think with maybe a lot a number of whatever that it is more treated as a business now, as opposed to doing it, because he wanted to be a boxer because he wanted to be heavyweight champion.
Of the world right um, i think that has changed and that therefore, the knock-on effect with that going backwards from the beginning as an amateur, more amateurs going through the amateurs being more um you’ll end up with the olympics.
It’S going to be harder to get there.
Um you’re going to get better quality amateurs coming through that’s going to then flow through to the professionals.
I just think the mentality has changed um, it’s very much a business now um one example: um fair pace them because the two of them have um earn a lot of money, but with eddie, hearn and anthony joshua, you know he’s okay.
He takes all the boxes as a media darling with all the rest of it he’s probably worth 250 million because of all the endorsements and everything else.
It ticks all the boxes.
It is a business aj is a big business, well done to eddie hearn for doing that, but that’s not how it sort of was back.
Then it’s it’s just the attitude, the mentality, whatever it’s completely different and i think fighters now are not all of them, but a lot of the sorry.
A lot of the fighters now are just it’s a different mentality, um that it was back, then i’m sure deontay wilder would have raged.
He’D want to be a fighter but, as you said, the very good example he had to and it’s a good way, if you’re physically gifted to to earn good money, he did it he’s, earned very good money, so yeah that i think that’s what you know what I was saying and what you were saying sort of combined together.
That’S one conclusion i get from that now, with all this in mind, do you think all the fighters back in the 90s would have beaten the majority of the fighters? Now we know the resume isn’t as good, but taking the resumes out taking the fight, as purely as they were, even if they’re untested, because they haven’t fought an elite fighter just going on potential.
How do you think, as a general thing, the fighters would have fared against today’s crop? I think today’s fighters rely heavily on i’m going to use the word to embrace a lot of different factors, but they rely on technology um, whereas fighters in the 90s really didn’t have that technology available to them again.
It’S a wide scope of elements i’m talking about, but so do do.
The fighters of today have a greater number of tools in their toolbox uh when they approach.
If you will a fighter in the ring – and the answer is yes, i think they do have a greater number of tools.
But if you’re simply talking about taking a fighter today, um putting them in a enclosed environment where they don’t have access to technology and put that fighter in the ring against a fighter of the 90s, i think i think you’ll see uh the element.
It kind of reminds me of any other sport where you see the veteran just having that that age and experience is invaluable.
You you can’t teach that to a young player in any sport, you need to earn uh that experience and you earn it in the ring.
Um you, you gain that experience in the ring um.
This is the type of uh intangible element that i think gives the 90s fighters the advantage over today’s fighters because, as you said, today’s fighters are fighting less much less, they have much less experience and who are they fighting their matchmakers are giving them.
I mean golf.
We call it a gim me, you know they’re they’re, they’re gimmies, you know uh they’re, they’re, bulking up these uh records, uh they’re, making them media darlings because of their records, uh they’re, pitting them against and think of think of the different um organizations involved in this.
Who offer up the belts in the championships you know at the end of the day, there may not be a bigger reason other than money to fight and if money’s available at any level, then they’re going to go for it.
Is that the reason the 90s guys fought? I don’t think so.
I think they fought because they wanted to fight they had to fight they enjoyed fighting to them.
It was a lifestyle, a career choice.
You might say, i’m not so sure that anthony joshua, just for example, and not to pick on him but sees his endorsement monies as valuable as his boxing monies uh and the two are obviously correlated.
But that didn’t happen in the 90s.
You know – and they you know, when did george foreman get his uh endorsement for the george foreman grill uh long after his boxing career was finished.
Quite frankly, you know, and we saw him he sold it by then they sold it for a huge amount.
There’S a very good documentary actually about him on youtube i’ll, send it through to that the whole story of everything and with the george foreman grill, very interesting, he’s worth bucket loads.
Sorry, i interrupted no, perhaps i’m just gon na watch in time.
One thing i want to put to you now is: i want to take a few of the fighters from back then and how you think they would fare against the top lot now and i’m going to start off with.
Let’S say: okay, evander hollyfield yeah.
How do you think he would do uh very well simply um, he technically good, technically great, a great fighter, a great boxer um had you know one of those one one of the elements that gets somewhat mr bypassed or overlooked? Is that heart or desire? I think he went into fights with with heart and desire, i mean think about he’s.
He was going into the ring against mike tyson.
Just for example, you know with as much intent to win.
You know at any level but with as much intent to win as anybody, and so i would give him a lot of credit for that and uh.
You wouldn’t see that today.
Quite frankly – and you you said it earlier, there are there more than enough examples of fighters ducking or not accepting fights, because it’s not paying enough.
You wouldn’t see that back in the 90s, so i give vandal holyfield a lot of credit for not only his skill set, not only his desire and his ability to step into the ring with with with a fearless attitude um, and i’m not saying these guys today.
Don’T have those same qualities, but i don’t think they add up to the same as what we see in the complete package of evander holyfield.
I think the only problem with evander in the 90s as a heavyweight and where he possibly could have problems now, is the lack of size and especially early on in the heavyweight side of his career, because until he lost a bow uh when he went with manny Steward and he put some weight on, he put a roughly half a stone and it went on slowly up from there.
He was very light.
I mean he weighed for on average round 206 208 uh early days as a heavyweight.
Now that fighter and as much as hollyford is along with michael spinks, one of my favorite two fighters but tyson um would have beaten him even the tyson i think before he was put away.
So the version to after the bust, the douglas defeat um but prior to going inside the one that beat alex stewart in the first round, the one that beat razor ruddock twice and then henry tillman and the first one back.
Okay, it doesn’t prove a lot.
But that’s just a give me to to uh, take the corpse off and a confidence fight.
I think oliver would have lost because tyson was mobile and you know a good half a stone plus heavier and quick, and he would have reached him and that would have put him at a disadvantage.
I don’t think until he was made bigger and improved and planted his feet more, but then he i think, would be nice to compete now with the guys.
I just think that’s the one thing that would have led him down, maybe with some of the fighters now, and that goes back to when we’re speaking about the weight thing with fury, even if again fury blah blah with anybody but uh okay, another one um riddick Bow – and i want to give my opinion on this one with riddick bo, because how do you think he would fear? That’S a really good example actually, because he he tends to get lost in the discussion quite often of uh great fighters from the 90s.
I’M not really sure why actually because he had his moments, but again i don’t know whether it’s mismanagement or not, but at the end of the day i don’t think i think he could have fared better at the end of the day as a boxer as a Known boxer, um yeah, i mean the skill set.
Was there i mean at the end of the day uh.
Could he fare well against today’s fighters? That’S a good ques! That’S a good question.
I i’m not i’m not so sure on my feet with that.
One uh with respect to how i answered the evander holyfield uh question: riddick bo – hmm, i don’t know problem with riddick and this is why i wanted to particularly bring him up.
Is that again it’s somebody.
I think that it’s that case of you can imagine him.
Just on potential, because, yes, he had a good career talking about it on the surface, but when you look deeper into it, he was possibly.
How could we put this uh flattered by the three hollyfield uh or the two out of the three hollyfield victories he? He was, i think, beau was a b-plus fighter, and all that happened in that first holyfield fight was the bigger b plus fighter beat the better but smaller a minus a fighter in hollyfield the size just made the difference in that fight.
Okay lost the second one.
Andy knocked hollyfield out in that third, one um, eighth ninth round, whatever um after actually being on deck.
But the problem is with beau is that he missed and he did not go for that fight and he trashed that wc belt instead of fighting lennox lewis, and that will hurt him forever.
That’S the biggest mistake he made right because, apart from that, when he won the championship from hollyfield, he had two uh two defenses of the title before he lost it to hollyfield, and that was to uh the first one was michael doakes.
I actually it’s definitely these two people which order it was a current member because they were quite they were done quite quickly and at this stage, no hope, as you had michael doakes, that was way way way past his best yep, and you had jesse thunder ferguson, Who was just sort of fringe world level and by that time way way way past his best? He only got that uh title shot because he beat a very under motivated, ray mercer.
Uh ray was a funny one because of he could have done.
I think a lot better than he did, but he lost to larry holmes um, who got the title shot instead of mercer and he lost to jesse ferguson, who then got the title shot instead of him.
Yes, he was wbo champion for just a short while, but bo now he had those two gimmies as a champion.
He lost against hollyfield the only notable victory or two notable victories that uh beau had was against the cuban the horrible chap, as he was at the time of what he’s like now, but the very despised, jorge louis gonzalez, and a good story with him and timothy.
This because uh gonzalez was unbeaten, it was a just had a jab, he was a mouthy arrogant, not a nice piece of work and bow knocked him out in the fifth round.
Now the next person to beat uh gonzalez was actually tim, so a nasty person asked.
Do you remember jorge lewis, gonzales no he’s the little guy um.
It was just a good job, but that was it, but it was his attitude stank um and that time, when ridiculo beat him um great cheering, i was asked doing cartwheels.
I think good, to see the back of him good to see him get beat.
But what i’m trying to say here um is that there wasn’t great depth.
He turned out to be not particularly that good fighter, because after tim beat him, he then lost sort of one one then lose one one and with another and lose another.
You know the record wasn’t good in the end, so therefore he was over hyped so as much as that was probably one of the best wins.
That was a very flattering win and apart from herbie hyde, when he regained uh fighting hide, he knocked him out.
But then hyde was really a cruiserweight and people will say unfairly that he wasn’t that good anyway.
But it was the big guy putting down her behind and i think heid hit the deck, something like uh five times or whatever it was uh.
It was just a bully with a child playing around with him and it was absolute mauling.
But apart from that, that is it, he had the two um disqualification wins over andrew golotta twice been hit in the balls, uh just uh gelato being disqualified, and that was it.
That is the highlight of his career, so definitely not a top 10 of all time.
When people say oh bro, no, no, no well, he could have been but you’re, judging that by potential or the first hollyfield victory.
Who was probably 208 pounds.
I think in that first fight, um, yeah peter hollow field.
A peak prime holyfield is great, but when you’re big – and he was very small – you got that big advantage anyway.
So was it that great to win when he lost in the second time round.
You know second fight anyway.
I just think it was a bit of a potential person whose career is flattered.
I just think that other than what i just mentioned, there was nothing else: okay, uh raymo, stronter ray mercer, merciless raymercer he’s uh.
He comes up in conversation quite a bit uh in in our various programs.
Quite frankly, a lot of people have a lot of things to say about him um, but you know what, at the end of the day, uh he’s one of these guys who so i think, you’re agreeing with me about the riddick bow scenario.
He’S a he’s.
A toying class when it come twin costume, he avoided one of the small amounts of fights back then that would you know that was definitely avoided.
There wasn’t much of it going on apart from george foreman lately his career, they were picked, they all fought each other and more than once right, um ray mercer, um, gold, medalist um, looks great, was wbo, champion unbeaten but then lost to.
I think he was 42 year old, larry holmes lost to jesse ferguson.
He did win a rematch um.
I just think he was great.
He just blew a little bit hot and cold, and that was all down to his conditioning.
Therefore motivation he had some.
He was in some really good fights, michael moore.
He was in with he led it drove lennox lewis, um very close in the majority decision, loss um, but he had definitely more than what he and he should have achieved a lot more than he did.
It’S a shame because he was very good.
He ticked a lot of boxes apart from just being spectacular in what he did, but he had a good punch, good defense.
He had a good chin, very good chin, one of the best chins um.
What do you reckon his best win was uh? Is there there is a standout one? Well, i’m you know.
I know him from.
I know him from the olympics: um tommy, morrison, tommy morrison, that’s good yeah, tony morrison, ahead on points.
He absolutely battering.
What a what a fine best win of his uh career – it’s great! You know you mention these names, you just have these flashbacks these memories and you go wow yeah yeah! I haven’t talked about that guy in a while, but uh ray mercer.
I remember mainly from the olympics um.
I think he at the time he was being trained by angelo dundee.
So i’m pretty sure he had that another.
These guys, who had the potential um and had had a few good fights, quite frankly, uh, but did he really match the potential that they saw him saw with him in the 88 olympics? I don’t think he really reached that potential.
In my humble opinion, yeah blue horse and cold um, i mean it’s.
Both the ferguson fight and the homes fight was just purely under-trained, that’s not the case if he gave it his all and he lost no.
He he came in out of shape because of he assumed it’s going to be a gim me and he lost, but he he would have a bad uh.
He actually did a favor, because a lot of people then would take him on expecting an easy fight.
Oh, this guy’s lost larry holmes and jesse ferguson and he’d land up put a hell of a fight in him.
There was so many good fights he was in, but you know it was so close with lennox lewis, a majority decision very close points, loss in a very good fight, very good one same thing with with hollyfield um.
Some people say that he was robbed.
I think it was fair that holyfield got the decision just another close one, but if he was motivated it was good, if not not so good, who else from back there who stands out one of your favorite fighters from the 90s, but just going over to the Original thing with how they would fare today, you know even if, for example, mercer is not one of the best, but more of a one of the marquee names from that era.
You know, stick him in with any of them now.
I think that he would probably beat all of them um.
Okay, let’s take fury out.
I could see why i would definitely uh him.
Sorry, definitely beating wilder, because he’d be able to take what wilder’s got and dish it back.
Uh he’d beat aj um.
I never write off music when i run through the current crop now, but just because of i don’t think we have seen uh all of what he has got to offer at heavyweight.
Yet that’s not just because he said that, but i think there is more because just how he is uh, there’s more to come, i’m curious to see what happens in his next fight or two.
If there is two fights left in him, uh a heavyweight um, because he’s marvel he’s just great but um him aside, you know mercer would have beaten most of them.
I think beau would have beaten.
Most of them.
Hollyfield would have beaten most of them.
It’S just to me clear-cut, you know not even close, not even uh, no, no, no! No! It’S completely different, completely one of the interesting 90s fighters that i think was on that top ten list that i read off uh and we just mentioned him tommy morrison.
I mean, if you’re pressing the piece, if you, if you’re a fan of the rocky uh series uh he he actually.
I don’t know if it was.
If you call it a starring appearance, but he was uh one of the characters: tommy gunn and uh anyway.
It’S too bad about tommy morrison.
I mean he seemed to have a lot of potential in the early 90s.
It’S hard to argue that he could yes he’s a competitive fighter, but would he really stack up against today’s fighters, i’m not so sure um.
You know again.
If motivated or not that’s the thing yeah, he hate bluehost and cold yeah so anyway, but morrison was one of those fighters who uh, who had a great name.
A great look, uh hit it when uh.
When we saw him in uh, i think it was rocky five uh but again um.
You know i i think he i think yeah did did he did he fight razor ruddock? I think yes, yes, though, at the end of the day like uh, he was taking on good fights, good challenges, uh had good fights um and was personable seemed to be personable um yeah anyway, you just you know.
You asked me one way: just put his dick around too much my god and if you’re doing that before about then you’re gon na lose like against uh michael bent when he got blasted out in the first round.
That was supposed to be a tune-up tune-up fight.
If you’re gon na um sorry that way, yeah if you’re gon na dick somebody before going into the about, then it’s what is it, you know, weakens legs first first round last definitely proved that one um, that’s classic, but yeah personable guy.
What a shame i mean did you? Have you seen the last mug shot of him before he died? No, no completely completely.
I think i wanted i’m recognizable.
If you put a picture up – and i said who’s that you’d be uh, you know, okay, he’s a fighter heavyweight on.
Oh i’ll, find it the la the last one before he died and um i put it up with.
I was in this this group at the time i actually put it up in front of everybody and said: hey friends, um who’s, this nobody got it.
Nobody no lie.
One one did sorry yeah it’s in the picture, mess shame.
It was a good guy, but just sort of kind of passed you too much, but then again it was a good looking guy had the body um, he was out there.
You know big time on the screen: rocky five sort of helped him, but didn’t help him double sword with that one um yeah such a shame.
No, it is a shame, um uh he, but he blew hoss and coley.
He did face razer ruddock.
He was actually down against ruddock as well.
He was one of those soccer, bastian fights and uh eventually laid out uh razer ruddock in that one uh, but tasting the canvas prior yeah he’s a good fighter, but he would certainly mix it up with anything now.
All depends which one of him turned up if it was uh a motivated one and addicted anybody before the fight yeah, he would yeah, probably probably uh next.
Who else could somebody else on the line says? Well, we’ve got a little bit of time who, who we know.
That’S two we’re not discussed.
Let’S go back um, you could say george foreman latter, but the foreman, because what he was knightest fighter, yeah 94.
He beat michael moore, um yeah.
The thing is with foreman back then, is when once he got the title, he didn’t face anybody of uh.
No, he did actually because he fought tommy, morrison, told norris and beast one points very well actually morrison um.
That was the most disciplined fight.
I ever saw morrison have in which he did because he wasn’t the usual heavy-handed going for the kl ko.
He was going for a points victory which he got in paul foreman’s face after that it was an absolute bloody mess, but you had uh who was the final person to beat him? That was shannon briggs, but you had a lot of defenses after that morrison loss.
You have people like andrew greeley, you had the german um axel shorts, former title challenger, but they were pretty hand-picked, mediocre fighters.
And that’s why i say you know, apart from uh beau, which don’t you know who dodged uh, lewis, the the the latter uh foreman fights is they’re the only fights that were sort of um person fighters that actually avoided anybody.
Apart from that, there was not anything on any great scale, because money was never really an issue and they just wanted to fight and they did fight.
It’S just a shame.
It’S i like it now, but the 90s for me was something special.
Yes, the 80s was good um, i’m lucky to have picked it up, um, just trying to think the first.
I was there just at the tail end of uh ali’s career.
I remember seeing obviously the the sphinx fight i’ve got memories of the second one.
Obviously larry holmes, the last one with burbik uh, the 80s were great, but the 90s were fabulous.
Well, the one the one fellow who we haven’t talked about, who has you know, i’m surprised they haven’t made a movie of it: um good old, ike ibiabuchi.
Yes, yeah yeah, what a potent, what a potential he had.
What was it until walking into an underage girl, yep um rough, something like that so he’s uh.
So he must have been a bit crazy on the outside uh.
You know, but boy what a record he racked up there uh undefeated and get the mauling of uh.
Chris byrd: well, not many people do that.
No, no great fight! We had a great fight with uh david tua wade, tua, that’s right, yeah what a fight that was so so he had a lot of a lot of potential.