Ad Wolgast VS “Mexican” Joe Rivers | Ring Talk with Lou Eisen | Talkin Fight

This week Lou discusses the July 4th, 1912 controversial bout in Vernon, California between World lightweight champion Ad Wolgast and challenger “Mexican” Joe Rivers.

Transcribed:

[ Music, ] hi good afternoon, i’m lou eisen – and this is ring – talk welcome here to my humble abode in toronto.

On this blustery rainy kind of afternoon.

I, like sort of mirrors my life here in toronto.

Today we’re going to talk about a very special fight.

One of the first fights i learned about uh when i was a kid.

This is one of the most controversial, if not the most controversial fight of all time, and this fight took place at the vernon arena in vernon.

California.

California, excuse me on july, 4th 1912.

It’S amazing how many fights in the first part of the last century and before always took place on july 4th.

You know the american birthday day of independence and and uh it was supposed to be.

You know just patriotic thing, you fighting july 4th for the people.

This was a great fight.

This was a highway robbery and the fight was between world lightweight champion adwil gast, the michigan wildcat not to be confused with stanley ketchel, the michigan assassin ketchup was a middleweight and wolgast was a lightweight ogast, maybe including fritzy, civic and the mysterious billy smith, and other Guys uh the single dirtiest fighter ever he he was essentially a a thug and a bully and a miscreant masquerading as a fighter.

He hit guys hundreds of times in the testicles during each fight, he’d head butt, him he’d.

Kick him he’d elbow him.

You know he used the laces of his gloves to try to cut their eyes out he’d palm them.

Uh he’d use his thumb to try to poke their eye out.

He used his thumb to twist and turn when he hit you with a punch.

You dig his thumb in there into your liver and the only guy as dirty, if not dirtier than him was the man he won.

The title from uh battling nelson oscar battling nelson, who was known as the durable dane and more appropriately, the abysmal brute.

Today’S fight, though, involves uh adwil gast and the great mexican joe rivers, joe rivers, actually was of spanish indian descent born in california.

He was not actually mexican, but you know, ethnicity sold back then, as it does now, and he was called mexican joe rivers.

Rivers was a great fighter and definitely should have been the undisputed world lightweight champion in this particular fight.

Um [, Music ].

You know he uh was a great fighter.

It was basically rivers was one there were so many great lightweights back.

Then the division was stacked.

You had leech cross a jewish dentist from new york, who would knock your teeth out during a fight and then set them the next day.

You you know you had owen moran tremendous puncher from uh britain.

You know, moran was the guy that was beating the hell out of out of that wool gas and will gas fouled him before he fought joe rivers hit him into testicles repeatedly? Will gas did this in all of his fights and he always got away with it and he got away with it for one reason: uh his his um employee was a well-known referee named jack.

Welch welsh was on the tape and criminal referee and welsh, not in every fight, but many fights involving will cast and he would take money from olga’s to ensure that walk asked one.

Now this particular fight um uh, was because wilcast was a lightweight champ.

He’D won it in a 40 round bloodbath on on um uh on.

Excuse me right.

He won it before in a bloodbath.

The battling um nelson.

He destroyed him in 40 rounds.

Nelson was never the same again so coming up on this fight july, 4th 1912 at the vernon arena uh you had mexican joe rivers to fight willgas wanted to have the fight michigan, where he was from because he thought it was better for him and he had His friends there on his side, the fight was scheduled uh for california.

Rivers had a big following there and he wanted jack eaton as referee but river.

But rivers wanted that.

But because wool gas was the champ, it was the champion’s prerogative back then to choose the referee and he chose the house referee, jack, welsh, meaning that you know willgas could have come in with a hammer and hit him in the knees and kneecapped him and welsh.

Would not have called it never did, and in fact you know when welsh uh, um refereed the fight where nelson fought joe gans, the great jogans for 42 rounds.

Gans went on a on a disqualification after nelson hit him below hundreds of times finally welsh after being threatened by so many people, you know, ended the fight.

So when you look at the career of all these guys, i mean um.

It’S amazing when you think of how many rounds they fought.

I just made a note here that uh, you know both of these men um nelson fought from may 5th, 1898 to april 17th, 1917 and willgatz fought from june 1906 to september 1920.

uh the amount of rounds that each guy fought was just unbelievable um nelson fought 132 – and he fought 1254 rounds – think about that a thousand 254 rounds woke ass, fought 138 bouts and he fought 1123 rounds now he he when he beat richmond or he beat nelson excuse me for the title: port richmond arena, california, the referee was eddie smith.

He was giving nelson a brutal beating and nelson’s eyes were closed.

He still wanted to continue, but he was a beat man and he could have easily been killed.

So the referee eddie smith stopped to fight to use some fear and he was probably right that nelson would have been killed.

So we come up to the fight with mexican joe rivers, and this was an incredible fight, because rivers rivers was an a great fighter.

He was much more skilled than walgast wolgast had no defense at all.

It didn’t occur to him that he didn’t know what defense was.

You know this was an illiterate street kid from a large german family in michigan, and he didn’t know what defense was it to him.

Defense was blocking punches with his face and damn it was worth it i’ll block 15, with my face to get one or two in on you, and while the referee is breaking us up from a clinch i’ll headbutt you step on your feet, hit you and your Testicles – and he did that repeatedly until he wore guys down, he had a lot more stamina.

Obviously when he was younger, and this worked up to a point but fighters who fight in that all-out style that take three or four shots to give one uh.

It’S an exciting style, but it has a very limited shelf life, and so they would come around to their fight and rivers was a younger man.

More skilled, better fighter and rivers grew up.

As i said in california, everyone loved joe rivers in california.

He you know he was boxing professionally at 16 17.

within three years at 20 he was a world contender and he was considered to be the top guy in the welterweight or a lightweight division, and there were a lot of great fighters back then in the lightweight Division so uh rivers is getting ready for the fight he’s training, hardee’s wool – gas is trains, but you know wool gas trains like oil gas always drains.

He does what he wants he’s not concentrating on anything specifically in training.

He doesn’t take training too seriously because he’s fighting, you know 20 30, 40 times a year, so he’s always in shape and in fact both of them came in at under the 135 limit.

I think rivers was 132 and a half and wool gas was 133 and a half so for the fight for the first um.

You know several rounds.

Rivers is beating the hell out of woolgast and easily so because rivers is a much more talented fighter.

Woke ass.

Isn’T coming in and setting his shots up he’s not you know he was the exact polar opposite of alexander yousek in his magnificent win yesterday over anthony joshua, you could see that orgasm had no plans.

He just came in windmilling with his arms and wherever his punches landed, so be it so didn’t care about, didn’t care about the rules.

Uh didn’t care about fouling people and he didn’t have to because jack welsh was never going to warn him and never going to to take a point away or even disqualify him – and you know the interesting thing about that is with this particular fight.

Is he committed hundreds of fouls during this fight? He kept hitting rivers low and the audience was getting angry and rivers would just look or welsh jack, welsh referee said later, i didn’t see anything didn’t see any fouls of any sort and he was paid not to see you know i mean.

Can you imagine a conflict of interest today to know that a referee for a fight today would be on a fighter’s payroll? So welsh was a terrible referee.

He was the lawrence cole of referees of his time.

He he he was openly corrupt and he let he let uh will gas get away with anything during that fight.

So in the early rounds, rivers is dancing around wool.

Gas – and you know he’s he’s like a matador – is running in face.

First reverses sidestepping him and just pounding him to the face and when will gas tries to hold and hit rivers is giving it back to him and he’s pounding him to the body and pounding in the face and he’s giving willgast a terrible beating.

You know uh joe levy, who was the manager of of um uh mexican, joe rivers.

The interesting thing here is he he didn’t care about the referee like when they said.

Well, it’s not going to be your guy.

Charles eaton they’ll be jack welsh.

Now he knew jack welch was in the pocket of had all gas.

Why didn’t he say anything? You think he would have stood up for his fighter.

He said it makes no difference because back then the talent disparity between rivers and will gas was thought to be so great.

That doesn’t matter who the referee was riverage would knock them out in five or six rounds, and that’s not only what levy thought.

That’S what everyone else thought you know who was writing about the fight boxing aficionados other fighters? They thought this would be a walk over for mexican joe rivers and for the first part of the fight it was.

He was pounding to hell out of at woolcast.

He was closing his eyes broke his nose.

Apparently he broke his nose early in the first round and blood kept gushing out and woolgas just didn’t give a damn kept coming forward, kept taking obedient kept landing.

His punches you’d have to wonder he’s thinking.

Where is this? Getting me i’m getting, the hell kicked out of me and i’m not winning these rounds, and it was generally agreed that you know after the first second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, you know: you’re looking into the ninth round and mogast is behind eight rounds, and this was Supposed to be a 20 round fight which a lot of fights were then 20 round fights or 45 round fights in this blistering heat in california, and that’s a long distance ago.

Three minute rounds, especially and and rivers, thought i’m not going to worry about wool gas, because his fouls will only get him in trouble and they won’t work against me because i’m able to minimize it what rivers didn’t account for, of course, being so young, but still A veteran was the fact was the physical impact of wool gassed fouls of getting hit in the testicles under as a athletic supporter, hundreds of times not dozens but hundreds getting elbowed in the eye getting thumbed in the eye.

Getting your feet stamped on getting head butted on your on your nose and on your lips having him take its thumb.

Try to take your eye out, hits you to deliver.

It takes a thumb and twists the punch, so he didn’t account for the beating and how much how much physical abuse he was going to take everyone, including his manager, joe levy.

Everyone was yelling at jack welch, but welsh just ignored them all, and this was a one-sided fight.

It’D be like watching, roberto duran early in his title ring.

He was just pounding the hell out of ad wolgus.

The crowd was very pro rivers, though they gave wilcast a great ovation when he was introduced as the champion before the fight, although they gave a greater one to joe rivers as a challenger, and he was just taking this feral beating, and it was just a matter Of time until joe rivers was going to knock out willgast and win the undisputed world lightweight title now, it’s interesting.

They call it the double knockout, the famous double knockout, where they both find a shot.

At the same time, they both go down, and yet one guy’s declared to win it.

That’S not quite what happened but but what’s interesting to note is i think it was the eighth or ninth round where this happened same thing.

That happened in the 13th round happened.

Four rounds earlier, they both connected with right hands.

They both went down and this has happened recently.

It’S happened.

Then it’s happened all throughout boxing history and jack.

Welch referee didn’t do anything.

He did the right thing.

He stood back and both fighters regain their feet before the count of 10 and resume the fight.

So where is the controversy? Well, there’s several controversies.

You have will gas coming into the fight as one of the dirtiest fighters of his era, and you have rivers coming into the fight known as the slugger known as a a good fighter, uh a smart fighter more of a hard puncher than than a knockout power.

Both hands, whereas wool gas, you know, would wear you down over time.

So we get to the 13th round fatal 13th round and the people at ringside uh, not only the fans but the boxing officials, the timekeeper and other people, and and um newspaper reporters and other fighters and their managers uh they’re all there and they see the fight.

You know they’re only a couple feet away sitting at ringside and earlier in the round, willgass keeps landing these low blows.

He’D been doing it all fight with his right hand, keep right hands to the testicles.

He would use his left hand too, but mostly his right hand, and you can get a tape of this on youtube.

The problem is, the tape is from behind joe rivers.

So it’s hard to it.

Wasn’T there was no side view as far as we know.

So it’s hard to get a good look at precisely exactly for sure categorically of what happened, but what the people at ringside said.

The newspaper people and the ring officials said what happened.

Was this the fighters were this close? They were clinching uh well, gasps was losing the fight, he knew he was losing the fight 13th round.

He was behind his own corner, said you’re going to lose the title.

You got to knock him out.

There was no way he was going to knock him out, because rivers was strong and fresh, and so what will gas did? Was he threw a right hand as hard as he could and he hit rivers and his right or his left, testicle and rivers as he’s falling out of reflex, throws a right hand and hits wool gas.

Now people some people ring aside, said it uh.

Well, gas.

Could use the left hook to the testicles? The first person hit? The mat is mexican joe rivers from the foul blow.

He goes down on the way down.

As i said he hit, he hit all gas will gas has a momentary, delayed reaction for a second or two and then the shot to the chin takes effect and he falls on top.

So you have a big problem.

You got one fighter lying on the other fighter, and boxing says that you have to get up under your own strength.

You, you cannot get up with the help of someone in your corner, the referee or anyone else.

You have to get up under your own ability, and so what happens is it’s near the end of the round jack welch in order to save uh ad will gast and his hold on the lightweight title.

He grabs, woolgast and lifts him up.

He lifts him up and sort of pushes him to the other corner and then joe rivers, when joe rivers gets up, the timekeeper gets jack.

Welsh’S uh um attention and he says the round is over and the round ended as jack welsh had counted four over mexico control.

Rivers never should have happened because they shouldn’t have helped, will gassed up.

The fight should have been stopped, but there was no one above welsh at ringside who had the power to do that.

So will gas is in his corner.

Rivers is up he’s in the agonizing plane, but he’s up at four.

He said i can continue.

I got up under my own strength.

I can continue and once again the official time keeper is saying to well jack.

He got up at the count of four and well should stop the count you know he’s.

He went on four five six and the timekeeper said it’s over.

The round is over and so welsh didn’t know what to do, because rivers is up, he beat the count and he points.

You know he there’s a delay there for a while and he points to uh willgast and raises his hand and the audience goes.

Berserk joe levy gets in the ring and starts screaming at welsh.

This is the biggest robbery in the history of prize fighting.

You should be lynched for this and when welsh he knows what he’s done is patently illegal, so he goes over to to willgast’s corner and he says to him get him out of here now now and this corner, you know, will gas was knocked out? His corner carries the groggy fighter and runs to the dressing room where they put him in a uh, a car or whatever, and just get him out.

They get him out of the arena.

Welsh needs a police escort as well she’s trying to leave the ring uh.

One of the guys in charge of the boxing commission in california was this huge lawyer and he said you’re not getting away with that.

You were paid to do this.

This was corrupt and you know it.

You said your guy fouled rivers, the whole fight and he went on a foul and you helped him win you’re not supposed to do that and rivers or welsh.

Of course said.

I didn’t see a foul, i didn’t see.

Rivers or welsh commit one foul, and it’s ridiculous.

I mean he saw hundreds of fouls.

He ignored him.

He was known for that.

He didn’t expect the audience to be that angry where people were throwing stuff at him.

You know, and he had at one point had to say well, i haven’t made my final decision.

You know to buy himself time and then he is escorted by quite a few police and security people and he has to leave the arena literally with people chasing after him.

They want to kill him and for good reason what he did was: corrupt and criminal.

He awarded the fight to the man that had been knocked out and people were outraged and in the paper the next day in a san francisco call, there was an article which i have in my book, which will hopefully be coming out soon.

Uh boxing’s greatest controversies.

Uh blunders, blood feuds and bad decisions.

I cover this particular fight and the guy in the call said that yes, uh nelson, not nelson excuse me.

Ed wolgastic claimed that joel rivers had need him, and he said he did.

He said after wolgass hit him in the testicles.

His knee reflexively came up, but he said it barely touched.

Will guess and as he’s going down, you know he throws a right hand and that drops will gast and he’s out and well should have stood back.

If well should stood back and not done anything eventually joe rivers would have got up, he would have pushed uh.

Will gast off and he would have gotten up here’s the thing after 12 rounds before the final 13th round.

Most people agreed that rivers had won at least 11 to 12 rounds.

He was pissed pitching a shutout.

He was beating the hell out of that wool.

Gas.

There’S no way on earth.

This fight should have been decided in that particular way, but it was and here’s one of the ironies of course.

So this is 1912 july 4th.

Uh willgast eventually loses the title in a brutal, beat down to willie richie and he got disqualified and the reason he got disqualified is because the referee was not jack welch and i believe the referee was a gentleman named griffin who uh who i wrote down.

Yeah, jim griffin was the referee for that fight and then, of course uh after uh after he beats adulgas for the title.

Uh willie richie then destroys mexican tome, rivers, joe rivers and mexican john rivers, and is the preeminent lightweight of his era.

But until benny leonard comes along um, both men were never the same again.

They fought again a couple more times and i believe some were newspaper decisions.

One was given to all gas, but um uh nelson, you know battling nelson was the guy that sort of started.

This uh fracas, you know so nelson was the one who lost the title originally to wolgass.

Nelson was a terrible guy in his own right.

He used to bathe in his own urine.

So when you get a clinch with him, you’d almost wretch um, so will gaston nelson didn’t like each other, the problem with wool gas – and this happened to nelson uh.

You know: wool gas gets the victory stolen for him by jack, welsh against dro rivers july 4th 1912, but he was showing the first signs of dementia.

They have to understand something uh when you look at these guys, they’re, not they’re, not old, guys.

Now, i’d written down the ages here of um, of how old each fighter was – and you know willgast was a young guy.

So you know orgas was born 1888 and february 8th and he died april.

14Th.

1955.

.

Now this is, we have to know uh by 1915.

Two or three years later, his dementia is really coming out by 1917.

He’S done.

He’S got such bad dimension that from 1917 to 1955 he has to be hospitalized in a mental institution in a sanitarism sanitarium.

Excuse me because his pugilistic dementia is so, is so um strong that he doesn’t know who he is, and he doesn’t know where he is, and his fighting style of taking hundreds of punches is, you know he had.

No defense whatsoever was really what worked against him over his uh over his career and over his life fighters.

Coming up like that, didn’t have amateur fighters or the amateur ranks their coaches to help train them.

Guys, like willgast out, had to train and learn from fighters that he fought or guys that he met in the gym and he was able to pick up things.

But most of what he picked up was foul tactics.

No one ever showed him.

You know how to slip a punch or to slide under a punch and then counter the guy.

He didn’t do that.

That wasn’t his thing.

He didn’t know how to do that.

I mean he would have stared at you, and his mindset was the same as battling nelson, who also ended up with severe dementia.

His mindset was, you know if you slip a punch or you slide under it or you block it.

You’Re you’re less than a man, because a real man – and this is what most people thought right up until ali beat, listen and including that fight most.

You know most guys in boxing thought: a real man takes a punch and, as ray leonard would say, no a real idiot takes a punch, you don’t gain anything by, you know taking a shot and because nelson was throwing windmill shots.

Excuse me, woolgast was throwing windmill punches as well as nelson.

They had no balance.

So when oil gas got hit to the chin into the head, he wasn’t balanced properly to defuse the power of the shot through his legs he’s taken every shot directly on his skull and moving his brain around, and you know almost 1200 rounds of getting hit.

Hundreds and hundreds of times in the head, every fight you can imagine he was literally a vegetable by the end of it and he still had guys like larnie, lichtenstein and other guys trying to get him fights near the end.

You know in 1917 trying to get him fights and he would stand there and people knew who he was.

He didn’t know who he was.

He didn’t know where he was and they’d watch him take a beating, they’d watch him get the hell pounded out of him, but they’d applaud him because he was able to stand there and take a beating for 10 rounds.

That’S not sport! How is that sport? You know the bell starts, you just stand there and the other guy hits you in the head for 10 rounds 20 rounds, and you last you know.

Last night i was watching the fight between sergi liponets and omar figueroa, and i i i’m a big fan of omar figueroa junior he’s a real gentleman.

He was a great champion, but there’s a point where i’m watching this with some friends and we’re thinking.

What’S going on here, the guy’s a shot fighter, his father’s got to stop this before he gets seriously injured.

He no longer has it there’s nothing wrong with that, but he was smart enough to realize that, because willgas had never had money, he lived hand to mouth as all fighters did so.

He died destitute, as did mexican control burgers, as did battling nelson, as did most of them.

One of the very few that lived beyond their career was benny leonard and that’s because he put defense first, he was the anomaly.

He was the guy that wasn’t going to stand and go toe to toe with you.

He put a premium on defense and he could stick a move and he could knock you out.

He slugged with you, but he wasn’t going to take your shot, stand there purposely and take your shots and of course the ironic thing is benny.

London died of a heart attack at age 46 in saint nicholas arena in new york, while refereeing a fight.

So that’s kind of sad of 1947, i believe, but when we get back to woolcost and rivers that it never died now people still talked about it.

They still talk about it today, uh, as i said, they had a rematch and it went to no decision a lot of these guys.

When you look at the record, they’ll there’ll be a certain number of fights.

You know and you’ll see that um 132 bucks for for uh now for not for nelson for add wool gas excuse me and 59 wins 20 kos.

He had 22 draws and you think well, that’s, that’s doesn’t add up to 132.

But a lot of these were newspaper decisions where the newspaper would say who they thought won the fight after, and so they would agree beforehand to fight the title: doesn’t change hands unless unless uh you knock the guy down or you or excuse me, you’re knocking out So, in this case it didn’t happen.

Uh rivers should have been able to knock wool gas down and they did have a double knockout earlier in the fight.

Rivers won the fight.

He was ahead by 12 rounds and everyone pretty well agreed, especially willgas, corner, that if this fight had gone on, you know for another round or two rivers would have definitely stopped wall gas.

But will gas like a lot of fighters were so desperate that he threw a low blow? He was doing it the whole fight, and this time he thought you know i have nothing to lose and there were people at ringside.

That said, he did it with his left hand, other people said he used the knee, but the four doctors in attendance for the california state athletic commission all examined joe rivers after the fight his athletic supporter and his testicles, and they agreed he was hit by a Punch in his testicles, which really severely dented the these um uh athletic supporter and gave him uh, you know almost ruptured his testicles, so he was in excruciating pain.

This happened when ken buchanan lost his title incorrectly to roberto duran when duran hit him under the belt.

You know low after the bell, which was ridiculous so same thing here, um after these fights, the man have divergent careers drill.

Rivers goes on and joe rivers keeps fighting but as he keeps fighting he’s doing well, but he doesn’t really ever get another title shot.

No one, no, they know how good he is they’re not going to give him a chance.

Now sim keeps i keep saying.

Nelson will gas keeps fighting and he doesn’t get another title shot, he’s fighting, really good fighters and he’s losing most of the time and from 1917 on he was committed to a mental institution.

It’S sad because he dies all alone and he spent 35 38 years alone.

You know in the fog misty memories of his mind.

He, as i said he didn’t know who he was where he was or what he was.

But when he died at the funeral there was an article and there was a photo of a tiny little guy in rumpled, well-worn clothes who came to pay his respects in in uh milwaukee and the man who come from california and that man was mexican control.

Rivers.

As he said after – and it takes a big man to say this, he said it was never personal with ad and i that’s just the way he fought.

I didn’t hold it against him.

It was the referee who made the mistake.

Um, that’s the way.

I’D fought and you either accepted it or didn’t, accept it.

So you can see in that particular respect that rivers, you know, was the bigger man, the fact that they, you know they their careers were incredibly long.

I mean, if you look at woolgas career um.

You know wool gas 1906 to 1920.

I believe so! That’S you know.

That’S a long long time and nelson fought on until i think 19 excuse me.

Well guess rivers fought on until around the same time period uh battling nelson fought on to 1917, and these guys were great fighters.

They were dirty fighters except for joe river.

They gave the fans everything they wanted.

These are little guys 133-135 pounds who could put 15 20 000 30 000 people in the arena and it would sell out tickets because they were exciting fighters, and you know one reason why they wouldn’t disqualify nelson or wolgass earlier in the fight.

You know especially wolgast in his fights earlier fights was because fans could hardly afford the tickets tickets were expensive, and so most fans were people from the lower middle class and made very little money and fighters made in one fight which the same amount.

These guys made in a year or two years or three years, so you know a man with a family.

The job and kids had to save up for over a year just to go see this title fight, so you didn’t want to disqualify a guy.

Even it was an egregious foul which it was with willgas, because he, you know you guys, spent all this money and now because this is going on, you know he wasted his money plus he probably made a side bet, you know with someone and because it was Ended on under such controversy, all the bets were pulled off, so, whatever money you bet as a fan – you’re not gon na get it now that money’s lost, as well as the money you paid for a ticket.

So this fight lost boxing a lot of fans and, and it took the state of california – you know uh a good 30 40 years to win those fans back.

It helped a lot with jimmy mclaren.

You know in in the late 20s early 30s, but it wasn’t until the 50s 60s that the state of california and boxing really started to come around and gain back a lot of the lost fans and those fans were lost because they, you know, people passed it On that, if you go to a fight, you’re going to get screwed, a fighter can do whatever he wants to win and whoever is winning.

If you’re winning doesn’t make a difference.

It’S up to the corrupt person in charge to decide the victor and the fans had had enough, and because of that you know it was tough for these fighters to get good money.

They never really fought for big money again and when i say big money, i i think um uh will gas got 20 grand and rivers got two grand which was a lot of money, but 20 grand plus you know.

Will gas got a part of the concessions? Part of the film rights, so that was good money coming in, unfortunately, for walgast, he got used to like a lot of poor people living high off the hog, and it came back to haunt him because at the end of his career he had no money and That was unfortunate, so some people when i’ve mentioned this fight, say to me.

Well whatever happened to jack welch he’s what joe frazier would call a scam booga.

You know a rogue criminal, um, terrible ref.

So what happened? Jack welsh after this fight in 1912? He refereed four more times uh, he couldn’t referee, any more of all gas fights because people, just you know, fighters, would say managers well, you can use jack welsh, but we’re not fighting it.

It’S happened.

You know sorry, look for someone else to sucker and so welsh uh, one of the fights last four fights he ever did was a jack johnson fight with jess willard, to which welsh actually said you know um.

If it was a 20 round fight, uh johnson wins 17 rounds to three i mean he was killing the guy and this ran out of steam, but that’s a story for another day, but it affected welsh’s career and adversely affected um at wilgar’s career.

But it also adversely affected joe rivers not just physically but mentally, because he always had that stigma that he was winning the title.

But he had it stolen from him and then to go up against the guy like willie richie, who savagely beat him down.

And then you have to think i was just close to being the world champion and now there’s a new champion and it’s just not gon na happen.

Uh you can get this fight on youtube.

People still discuss this fight, people still say well.

What happened? Who should have won clearly uh ad? Will gas had cheated through his compatriot uh referee jack welch? Clearly when they both hit? The canvas first of all will guys should have been disqualified many times before, but that just wasn’t going to happen with jack welsh ever after that, when they both went down for the second time, around 13 well should have stood back and, as it says, in the Boxing rules back then, and today you got to get up onto your own power uh and will gas gon na do that? You could actually see welsh, helping them up and then continue to count.

And, of course, there is the controversy, because rivers also beat the count and didn’t get the benefit of the doubt.

You know welsh fly.

I got to do something.

I can’t i can’t cheat my guy because he’s not going to pay me, so my guy wins and they literally you know, welsh and orgasm, had to leave the arena with cars literally following them, with people wanting to stop them and link them.

It was one of the craziest uh moments in boxing history uh, i would say easily the or arguably the most controversial fight uh ever to take place in boxing did.

I know after that i know of the double knockout.

Please go to youtube and watch this fight and then let me know what you think at lewis and rogers.

com.

Also, as i said, my book will be coming out soon.

Boxing’S greatest mysteries and i’ll have an update on that in a couple weeks and let you know – and i want to thank eric boyce for doing a great job of producing uh, this fight and or this fight this particular show – and i think that’s it for this Episode, i hope you all enjoyed uh.

Another edition of ring talk, i’m boxing historian and writer, lou eisen and i think next week i’ll try to do something on battling nelson because i’ve been mentioning him by accident.

So often during this podcast that maybe i should just go ahead and talk about his fight with uh joe gans next week, which i think i will do we’ll talk about.

The jogans battling nelson, the 42-round fight in coma california, under tremendous heat and at that point gans was already suffering from tuberculosis, but that is next sunday’s podcast.

Thank you for watching i’m lou eisen and i hope you have a great rest of your sunday and always please support the great sport of boxing.

Thank you.