Joey Maxim vs Sugar Ray Robinson | Ring Talk with Lou Eisen | Talkin Fight

Lou discusses the 1952 fight against Joey Maxim and Sugar Ray Robinson. In boxing, as in other avenues of life, it is possible to be too good for your own good. Sugar Ray Robinson is regarded by many as the greatest boxer of all time, but on at least one occasion, his immense talent proved a liability.

By 1952, Robinson’s place in boxing history was more than secure. He had dominated both the welterweight and middleweight divisions like few before and on the way established himself as the finest all-round boxer since Benny Leonard. But, like every other great competitor, Robinson was not satisfied to just bask in the glow of universal admiration.

Transcribed:

[, Music, ] foreign [, Music, ] boxing writer and historian Lou heisen, and this is ring, talk and we’re coming at you today on uh Tuesday, in uh August, rather than on Sunday, because Sunday I was in the hospital because Friday night, I had kidney stones and I’M not going to give you the Gory details.

I haven’t passed them yet, so you can look at the podcast this way.

You could actually be watching something historic here.

As I discussed the joy Maxim, uh sugar Robinson World light heavyweight title fight.

It took place June 25th, 1952 and, if my eyes literally come out of my head, you’ll say: look he’s passing the stone, but actually, wherever you are anywhere in the world, watching this, when I pass the stone, you’ll hear it, I can guarantee you that um.

This was a great fight, I always say it’s a great fight, but this was a special fight.

Uh Chevrolet Robinson had won the world light uh World Welterweight Title.

Excuse me against Tommy Bell one of those great Fighters, uh long forgotten great Fighters and then moved up on February 14th, St Valentine’s Day, Massacre 1951 to stop Jake LaMotta in 13 Rounds to take the Undisputed World middleweight title and Robinson was very antsy.

He wanted to be a multi-divisional um Champion, you’d won the welterweight, he’d won middleweight and because of his weight he wasn’t able to go back down like Henry Armstrong did and win a lightweight title.

He had to go up, so he couldn’t fight for the world heavyweight title.

He had to fight Joey Maxim and he thought it could beat Maxim.

He’D watched a lot of film of Maxim Maxim was not a quick fighter.

He was a smart fighter.

Technically, very smart.

Didn’T have many knockouts had well over um 116 fights 22 Knockouts.

That was it and 83 wins, so he Maxima had one ace up asleep.

He had several one of which was uh Jack Kearns was his trainer and manager, Jack doc, Kearns had trained and taking Dempsey, Jack Dempsey to the world heavyweight title and Mickey Walker to the middleweight title so he’d been around since the turn of the century.

So this was 1952, so there wasn’t much that Kearns didn’t know and Robinson’s quarter.

He had won the top.

Several greatest trainers ever to have lived in the great Harry Wiley.

It was Harry Wiley Who Made, Who should be in the international Boxing Hall of Fame, who made Sugar Ray Robinson into Superman, who made him into this wonderful, wild, beautiful thing that no one could beat now Robinson who had 174 wins and 109 Knockouts.

That’S an incredible record was going up and waiting for this fight now the thing about that is, he was he waited at 160.

and as a middleweight and light heavy limit was 175.

, so Robinson wasn’t going to come in much more than I think it came in At 158 157, that’s as high as he could go and Maxim came in at 175, 173, 175 and Maxim was a smart fighter, but there was an X Factor here and The X Factor in this fight was New York was going through tremendous Heat Wave.

The fight was going to be held June 23rd two days earlier, but there was a torrential rainstorm and it’s the kind of rainstorm.

This probably happens everywhere today, but we’re coming to you from Toronto and in Toronto this past summer, over the past three four months every day or every other date is predicted, a torrential rainstorm don’t go outside and it has yet to happen so we’re a parched City.

So Maxim they can’t delay the fight anymore, because the second delay would kill the gate.

Fans understood you couldn’t have held the fight on its original date, the 23rd, because it was raining outside and the fight would say, Yankee Stadium, so they had to fight.

But the thermometer at ringside was over 105 degrees, plus these two guys are fighting under clig lights, k-l-i-e-g and these are very powerful ring lights, the fight’s being broadcast on TV and even if it was the middle of winter, these guys could still fight under klig lights.

That’S how hot the lights were and then you add that to the fact there was a hundred percent hundred percent humidity and it was brutally hot.

You know Robinson lost over 20 pounds during the fight.

He started the fight, it’s a middleweight ended up uh, just over the lightweight limit and joy.

Maxson lost 10 pounds, so he ended up as a super middle League, doc, Kerns, Jack dot, Kearns um was said to Maxim and he’s one of those guys Angelo Dundee told me that whenever he was talking to you or talking anywhere, people would stop to listen, because There was always going to be a kernel of wisdom and anything that Jack duck turns said.

He said to Maxim: listen, you’re, Delight, heavyweight champion the belts around your waist you’re defending the title.

You don’t have to attack him.

He’S got to attack you and beat you decisively.

Let the heat destroy him.

Let him come after you, you go on the defensive, let’s wait to the later rounds between 10th and 15th rounds and then we’ll go after him.

After he’s suspended all that energy and he was right and it was a perfect strategy, what was Ray Robinson going to do people thought? Well, you should tamper down his offense and maybe fight not as aggressive a fight, but that wasn’t Ray Robinson it’d, be like saying to Joe reform and don’t use your power.

I mean that was Robinson’s gift.

Robinson’S was one sugary Robinson was one of few Fighters along with Muhammad Ali, who could actually knock a guy out while backing up, and that takes tremendous skill, so Robinson starts to fight and he’s doing really well, he he’s winning all these rounds and he’s winning them Decisively and he’s moving in and out his footwork is incredible: he’s not hurting Maxim by any means, not at all.

In fact, as Maxim said, you have to remember when I trained I sparred with heavyweights, guys that were 200 pounds and up usually 220 and up so a guy 158 pounds hitting me is, as Maxim said, it’s going to be more of an annoyance than actually something That would hurt me, but in boxing sometimes it doesn’t have to be one punch.

It can be an accumulation of shots, such short circuits, your brain and knocks you out, however, Robinson was Landing.

All those shots and Matson was taking them.

He just it it wasn’t.

He wasn’t getting hurt, but Robinson was doing.

The important thing was he was putting rounds in the bank.

Henry Wiley was saying to him you’re out boxing him.

You don’t need to knock him out land your shots and get out of there now Maxim.

Wasn’T a knockout threat Maxim won the title against British fighter.

Freddie Mills knocked him out in the 10th round and he you know.

After the fight they found some of Mel’s teeth embedded in uh Maxim’s gloves.

Mills was a great favorite but um at that time.

His favorite, what I mean the great favorite was he was favorite in the betting odds in Britain, but they always support their own Max and beat him and beat him clean and knocked him out, and it was one of the few Knockouts that um that he got.

You know in his career, so Chris wants to know if Sugar Ray Robinson and beaten Joey Maxim.

What would he have done next? I think he would have uh.

I did give him maximum a rematch or gone back down to middleweight uh.

He could have fought some other light heavyweights, but I don’t see him beating Archie Moore, which was the next fight for Max and that and he lost, I just don’t see Ray Ray Robinson may have had quicker hands, but R2 more was very quick as smart.

If not smarter than Robinson and and could hit just as hard, if not harder and a true light heavyweight uh Zev wants to know, considering that the heat affected, the upcoming the fight, why was there never a rematch um? That’S a good question.

I’M not sure why there was a rematch.

I think that may have been the reason why, because Robinson said to Heat, beat me but Maxim had the great comment.

It was just as hot in my side of the ring as well.

You know, and you wanted Robinson to admit that I didn’t fight the correct fight or I ran out of steam or got beat by a better fighter, and none of those are true, but there just wasn’t any after would happen.

I don’t think there was any call for it Robinson wanted to leave boxing at that time, and you know, go into entertainment, he’d had enough and he wanted.

This was supposed to be his last fight and then he came back after his retirement, which was really caused by the mafia and they get kept putting pressure on him to throw fights and he wouldn’t so he left.

He said the hell with you, I’m the money.

Guy in boxing, when I’m gone, you suffer and he was right and then he came back as a middleweight which was more his regular weight.

I don’t think it was a rematch because I just don’t think he could put on the necessary weight to compete and I don’t think he had any stomach for after that fight to go after another title uh again and um.

I don’t want a mistake.

I made the other week when I was doing a podcast.

This podcast and I forgot to zoom down and I realized there were other messages.

So if I didn’t get to your message and I apologize, I will try to get to the mall today.

These are great great questions, um.

You know this happened before with Jess, William and and um Jack Johnson, when, when Willard B, Johnson and Johnson said well, it was over 100 degrees and and Willard said, and that’s why I threw the fight and John well.

He said well, if you’re going to throw the fight, why did you wait to the 26th round? It was blistering hot, why he just throw it in the second round, so we could all get the hell out of there.

So not many people believe that um you’re asking me if Sugar Ray Robinson had fought Harry grabbed, my middleweight, who would win.

I I think, Robinson beats just about everyone at heavyweight.

I think he was too slick for a guy, like I regret the question about I’ll grab, questions not and then that’s not redundant the question about all questions regarding grab.

We don’t have any film on her regret.

We have filming from training and the big thing in boxing the late Steve Lott, who worked for big fights, Incorporated and helped man Mike Tyson at one point.

So if you want to make a quick million dollars, find actual fight footage – and I regret we know the fights where the film was taken – we just haven’t seen it and I think Robinson uh, the one of the reasons why he was called the greatest of all Time is that you know, given the odds, if the odds are equal and everything was equal, you know pound for pound, which meant if all weights were relative, he’s the greatest fighter that ever lived.

I think he beats any middleweight before him or after him.

I think the only one that would have given him a good fight would have been Marvin Hagler.

That would have been it um, maybe monzon, because Iman song’s height and Superior Reef, but I think it really would have been Hagler um.

That’S true Robinson, wouldn’t do any further business of Jack Kearns, but a lot of people didn’t want to do further business with Jack.

Kearns Kearns was a rogue and um.

It’S a scrapbook boxing you’re right and a lot of people didn’t want to do business with them.

They recognized that he was smart.

He was like one of those baseball or hockey players that you hate on the other team, but you’re happy when he’s in your team.

Kearns was a rogue, but he knew what he was doing and he knew how to win in the sport.

Um you’re right, David, David Chase, says um.

This is a very con they have.

This is a controversial question because blatantly Robinson is widely considered.

The best by almost all boxing experts and that’s true, most of them, have it Robinson, uh, Willie, Pap and Henry Armstrong, and sometimes the order gets changed with Armstrong’s, first Robinson second and Willie Pap, so um and that’s true too scrapbook mentions that one more fought Maxim More made 800, he made 800, so maximate.

A hundred thousand archery Motors should have been champ 10 years before he was, but because of his skin color and the racism.

All the time wasn’t given a chance, so he gets a chance for nothing.

He beats wasn’t for nothing eventually made money, he beats Maxim and until he can get free of it Maxim he’s got to fight him twice more and beat him.

You know convincingly twice more and of course, with that fight uh.

He also not only won the world.

Like title, but he won Jack dock currents.

That was part of the deal and, of course, Kearns helped.

Moore’S money go way up exponentially, so I agree with David that Harry grab should be in the conversation based on who we face uh.

But it’s a question.

You can’t answer Angela Dundee told me, you know when you get, you call them parlor questions, it’s fun to say, who would Robinson have beaten, Harry grab or grab of Juan? Would catch up, beat Marvin Hagler? The simple fact of the Mac is sadder of the matter of the fact is: excuse me, we don’t know because they didn’t fight, so it was my Angela would say to me saying if this happened, if that happened and Evangel would say, you know, if my grandmother Had testicles she’d be my grandfather, she didn’t phrase it that way, but in other words we never know it’s only an it’s.

Only an assumption.

Uh, yes Harry grab David, did face an extraordinary number of great Fighters.

Uh and Robinson um grab fart from welterweight all the way up to heavyweight while giving up to 50 pounds.

That’S very true and Robinson fought well to await to light heavyweight, but the the weight divisions weren’t as pronounced when Greg was fighting.

In other words, not as big a thing was made about them, but doesn’t take away from his accomplishments the fact that he was 160 pounds and because it was speed and toughness, he was able to handle heavyweights uh relatively easy.

So it we’re gon na we’ll get back to maximum Robinson, which is what we’re talking about so Robinson’s putting rounds in the bank he’s winning these early rounds, he’s dominating Joey Maxim Maxim, doesn’t have the speed or the footwork and Kearns is saying.

Don’T worry, he’s expanding his energy and you can see first, five.

Six seven eight rounds Robinson is the dominant fighter in this fight.

That’S what he’s doing he’s he’s easily getting in landing flag or six shots, which is Harry white, he’s telling him this don’t stand there and plant your feet for good, like you’re, going to knock him out, you’re, not going to knock him out.

He’S a brick wall.

Get in there land your punches get the hell out.

The idea is to win the fight.

You don’t have to knock him out.

Just win the rounds put rounds in the bank and Robin’s the one’s, putting on a great show, as he was putting in rounds in the bank and after five six rounds.

You know the announcers are saying, and I think everyone knows then at Yankee Stadium, that Robinson’s ahead six rounds to nothing, there’s only nine rounds to go and then pretty soon Maxim’s going to be in a position where he’s going to have to knock Robinson out because He’S too far behind the fight and seven rounds eight rounds, and you can hear the announcers say you know well, that was the eighth round in the books and I have Robinson ahead winning all eight rounds and he had.

He had won all eight rounds.

That meant it’s a 15-round fight.

There were seven rounds to go so eight rounds, and that was that was in the books.

He was at eight to nothing that meant that Robinson just had to stay on his feet for seven more rounds.

You hear that a lot in boxing you know he only had to stay on his feet for a couple more rounds, two rounds, one round three rounds.

It’S not an easy thing to do when you’re in the ring, with a guy that wants to Cave your head in and the guy who who is technically, you know a brilliant fighter in his own right and you’re fighting in over 105 degree, heat and 100 humidity.

So it wasn’t easy Robinson still couldn’t just go out there and wait if he stood still and did nothing, you know Maxim would come after him.

Maxim was trying to hit him, but Robinson was so Elusive and so brilliant had slipping shots and sliding shots, and one of the great things Robinson did.

I know Angela Lindley loved, it was, he would slide under his opponent’s shots and every time he did that he’d whacked the guy.

If you made a mistake against Ray Robinson, he could knock you out and if he couldn’t knock you out, he would come in at land.

Five, six seven shots Robinson was smart because Robinson was going after Maxim’s body.

He was saying: well, I’m not going to hurt him to the Head.

He’S got a chin of granite, so Robinson was destroying trying to destroy Madison’s body, and you have to remember you know: Robinson’s 158 pounds but maximum train with guys that were 210 215 220 hitting him in the body he was used to that.

So a guy that was 158 pounds and rapidly losing weight during the fight wasn’t going to make much of a dent and as the fight progressed, of course, you know Robinson’s getting more rounds into the bank and you got ta understand that after 10 Rounds, you know Robinson is sitting there thinking if you could think under that blistering Heap and it’s Cornish thinking, we got 10 Rounds in, that’s it.

You know and Harry whiteley’s saying five more rounds right: five, more 15 minutes from now you’re the Undisputed light heavier weight champion of the world you’ll be the only one.

The welterweight who’d won the only person to win welterweight middleweight and light heavyweight honors as Undisputed.

So he did he kept going and you have the the 11th round and you have the 12th Round And as you get to the 10th round, Robinson is starting to noticeably tired and you know 9th 10th he’s still moving, but he’s not moving as much he’s more Flat-Footed he’s still ducking shots, but he’s moving back to the ropes and covering up in the ropes and resting on the ropes.

The other big factor that came into play was because of the weight difference.

Maximum had 18 and a half pounds on him was physically a bigger man.

Madison made a point because what currents told him to lean on him every chance he got in the clinch against the ropes, so when they would clinch you know, Maxim would just be almost like a kid you’re trying to drag out of a bank when the kid I don’t want to be here and goes limp maximum, just leaning his entire weight in Robinson and that’s a draining thing in that blistering Heat humidity, to have to lift this guy up and then push him off, and that was taking a lot of um energy.

Out of Robinson, the other thing I noticed, although it never would have occurred to them back then, is in between rounds Fighters.

Are you know? Getting water and Robin’s been spitting it out, but they’re getting dehydrated with each passing around and Matson was actually keeping his water down.

He wasn’t spitting it out.

He drank he kept drinking.

If it turns new, I’m sure Harry Wiley knew, but it wasn’t tradition.

Then you thought it was thought if you swallow the water and you get hit in the stomach.

The next round, you’re going to get terrible cramps the parents thought.

Well, you know it’s.

The heat is so brutal that my guy could get.

You know heat prostration or Sons, Pro not sun, stroke, but heat prostration and he could get dehydrated.

So it’s better.

He drinks water and he was having maximum drink a lot of water trying to keep him hydrated and you have to understand during the fight there’s 10.

12 15 20 fans they’re collapsing and being taken out because of heat prostration.

These are fans it’s hard when you watch it and you’re watching guys that are Insider fans in a suit and tie and it’s 105 degrees.

I mean my attitude would have been a big sun hat shorts, t-shirt and sandals.

You want to have as little clothing on you as possible.

In fact, after the 10th round referee, Ruby, Goldstein collapsed and he’d been very active in the fight, because there were a lot of clinches, so he was a smaller man.

He had to break the clinches and he was very good at dancing around the fighters trying not to get in the way.

But you see him near the end of the ninth and during the tenth round he’s hanging on to the ropes just to hang up just to hang up just to stand straight up and and then at the 10th round after the 10th round.

He staggers for the ropes, the referee, looks at him and says you’re dehydrated and you know he has to be helped from The Ring he’s dizzy and his spot is taken over by a former great featherweight fighter, Ray Miller, who actually beat the great Jim McLaren Ray Miller was a great referee in his own right and he had the referee from rounds 11 to 15.

and it’s a good thing.

He was there, so you have the 10th round.

You have the 11th round.

Um.

I see David mention, Charlie Burdick, yeah, Ray Robinson, didn’t want to fight Charlie Burley.

I have a great book on him.

I think by Alan Rosenfeld.

I believe it is Charlie.

Burley is one of the great all-time Fighters.

He was a welped away, middleweight light heavyweight, Burley uh wasn’t ever given a chance at a world title because of the color of his skin and the racism of the times.

Plus you combine that with his tremendous Talent.

He was denied his opportunity, but when you add photos from that era, who was the best fighter of that era, they would all say.

Charlie Burley Burley was an incredible one.

Um Lou, Who stands the best Chance Sports culture gaming at beating Sugar Ray at his weltery Peak 147.

pounds.

Well, I don’t think welterweight was his Peak.

I think you mentioned Sugar.

Ray Leonard Robinson was a taller man then later Robinson thought briefly at welterweight.

His goal was always to be a middleweight, but he was told by Mike Jacobs the promoter and others that he was never.

They were never going to give him a chance to fight for the middleweight title, so he had to fight Tommy Bell for the welt away title and he beat kid Gavin.

He beat some good welterweights and some of them who went on to become middleweight so um to beat him at welterweight.

That would be difficult uh, I would say at welterweight, maybe Roberto Duran, maybe Sugar Ray Leonard, but he was only a Welter for so brief.

A time it’s hard to actually pick a guy from the future or back then even who could have beaten and possibly Charlie Burley, but that fight never came across and um neglishation says leishman.

Excuse me.

That could be perfectly honest here.

If it wasn’t for the heat of that night, when sugary Robinson fought Maxim, we will all be talking about how Robinson sugar Robinson added the light heavier World title, and that’s true but ifs and hands, don’t count in boxing.

We can only go by what actually happened.

So you could say the same thing about Jack Johnson Jets, Willard, the red free back then said you know if the fight had only gone 20 rounds and it was a 20 round bow which would have been normal Johnson retains his title.

But the fact that it was a 40-round boat in that kind of heat and Johnson was 37 years old.

He just couldn’t stand up against that heat and and the added pressure well his Titanic right hand so and Weller wasn’t that good a fighter, so you can say if, but the fact is, the weather did come into play and affected how, but it also affected Maxim.

Equally, he he just tampered down his attack, but I do agree with you um uh, Nick, because I’ve always been a fervent advocate of the fact that weather shouldn’t affect the outcome of a sports event, whether it’s baseball football and especially boxing, but unfortunately it does.

So.

That’S just the way it is um.

He was wanting to fight by Miles and and um uh that, yes, I’m just reading what you’re saying about heat exhaustion, um yeah, so we do know that when the fight ended, you know this was 11th round 12th round.

Uh Robinson, threw a right hand, missed, fell down on his face, face slammed against the campus got up, but after the 13th round he went to the wrong corner.

He wasn’t, he wasn’t walking, he was staggering, he was reeling.

You know he could barely keep his balance and his cornerman had to get him and take him back to his corner and Dr Vincent nardiello looked at him and said you know, he’s suffering from from uh heat exhaustion as uh Nick kindly points out and he’s extremely Dehydrated – and you know his core temperature has gone up, we got ta, his life is imminently endangered, so they take him to the Dress room.

They put him under a cold shower for a long time, which is what the doctor said to do.

You got to get his body temperature down and that worked.

You know today.

If you get into a shower – and you turn on the heat, the water and it comes out all hot you jump back and if it comes at all cold jump back, the Robinson didn’t move, which meant he was in seriously bad shape.

Not cold.

Water was coming down Robinson um up to that point after the 13th round.

I think the score cards had Robinson winning 11 or 12 of the 13th round of the 13 Rounds fought so far, so there was no doubt he was.

If he could stand his feet for six more minutes.

He could win the fight, but because of the condition he was in, he wouldn’t have been able to, as he wasn’t wasn’t about to continue and raw and Maxim could very well have stopped him because of that heat, because you have to remember when he went down To missing a punch in the 12th or 13th round, he was barely able to get up and that was from missing a punch.

So if Maxim could put shots together, you know he could have stopped them possibly, but we don’t know, and the other thing about that is you know, Jack Kearns was right.

He said to Maxim: he’s got to win the title from you.

He’S got to put on the show, he’s got to beat you decisively, let’s wait to the later rounds.

Let him burn himself out and that’s exactly what happened to him Robinson.

You couldn’t expect him to do anything less than he did.

He said he should preserve his energy but preserve his energy for what Robinson’s hoping to stop him and get out of that cauldron of heat a lot quicker than he did, and he just wasn’t able to.

If he watched a flight Robinson landed tremendous shots.

That would have stopped any middleweight or welterweight before him and possibly other light heavyweights, of course, with the exception of Maxim and Archie Moore, but it just wasn’t having an effect on Maxim.

He was Landing, but he wasn’t hurting Maxim.

He wasn’t bothering maximum Maxim’s title was slipping away, but he had such complete faith and trust in Jack Kearns that he knew that Robinson.

He could see before him.

Obviously, a couple inches away Robinson was starting to fade and fade rapidly and wasn’t going to make it to the 15th round because of the brutal Heat fans who weren’t fighting didn’t make it to the 15th round.

You know Ruby Goldstein, the great referee didn’t make it to the 15th round, so he’s getting barely made it through the 10th round.

So you know when the fight was over after three rounds, Ray Miller was suffering from dehydration.

He’D only been in there for three rounds.

Although he’d been at the fight for a long time, so it was one of the all-time great fights and it was an exciting footage.

People thought that um.

You know you at that point in time.

That Robinson may have been finished.

What was he going to do and he did what he did? He left us for it went into entertainment and then came back and and regain the world middleweight title uh Nick says that because he refused to fall or knock out a fighter at a certain round.

Uh that black Baldwin from fighting for a world title fight for six years, where he beaten already everyone in world population.

Now I understand what you’re saying uh right: it wasn’t because uh he failed to knock out a fighter at a certain round.

It was because he wouldn’t do business with mob.

It was simple as that the mob wanted him to have some fights and they would come up and say to him.

This is what you do.

You lose the Gavilan, you beat him in the rematch and then the third one’s on the level, which is what Frankie carpool said to him and Robinson had the cajones and and he had the enough power within the sport, because he was the biggest draw and he Could say no, no, it’s not going that way.

I’M not going to deliberately lose and Robinson wasn’t stupid.

He knew that if he lost to Gatlin didn’t mean that mob was going to keep their promise, they may steer gavilion away from him.

He may never get another shot and he knew that guys that did business with the mob ended up losing all their money.

They never got paid so Robinson eventually got ripped off by his own people.

Unfortunately, and all the businesses he ran in Harlem, which is one of the reasons he had to come back to the sport, so after the Joey Maxson fight, there was an immediate Remax because Robinson had enough and he wanted to go into entertainment.

He didn’t want to go through this early training process anymore and he didn’t.

He didn’t want to have to deal with the mob which he could fight off, but for how long? So when he came back, he had no choice but to make a deal with with uh James Norris and and the IBC International unboxing club, which was run exclusively by by Frankie Carmel Blinky Palermo and he had to make a deal with them.

To get back into the middleweight picture, and that was sad that he had to do that, but that was the way the sport was run.

The New York State athletic commission knew it, so did the FBI didn’t want to get involved? Government didn’t want to get involved and the police didn’t want to get involved the mob.

No one cared enough about boxing to actually straighten it out at the time, and this was Robinson’s profession.

His entertainment career didn’t do well uh Joey Maxim uh after played a lot of golf.

He was into flag fishing.

He also after this fight.

I guess in the late 60s appeared in some softcore musical porn and there’s some posters for that um.

The two were civil towards each other.

I don’t think there was a strong friendship, but there was no dislike and and uh you know Maxim lived to the ripe old age of I believe, 75 and 79.

Excuse me uh.

He was born Giuseppe Antonio berardinelli March 28.

1922 died June, 2nd 2001.

.

We took the name Joey Maxim because Giuseppe anglicized to him, with Joey and and when he fought in Europe, they said his left hand.

His jab was so rapid.

It was like a maximum Gatling gun, so he took the name instead of Joey, Bernard Berard and Nelly took Joey Maxson, and that was a much easier name to pronounce.

It was.

It sounded uh, uh, audibly, pleasing, and that was the name.

He took, of course, Ray Robinson’s.

Real name was Walter Smith Jr, and we know that he got Sugar Ray Robinson when he got Ray Robinson when he appeared in the amateur tournament in the real Ray Robinson didn’t appear, and so he took the the guy’s name and then, when he turned Pro someone A writer said to George gainford, his manager.

You got a really sweet fighter there, Swedish sugar, and that was that writing that started.

Calling him Sugar, Ray Robinson other Fighters triggered George Costner, the only fighter that also had that name and Ray Robinson said it was okay.

With sugary, Leonard but Leonard, had asked permission to use that name, which I thought was silly, but out of respect after 800 watts he asked.

Can I use that name and they said sure Robinson said sure, go ahead and use the name Robinson like Joe Lewis before him he didn’t live to an old age.

He was born, May 3rd 1921 and died April 12.

1989, and you know he he was um.

67-68, he had 174 career, wins 19 losses, 109 Knockouts, uh six draws and two no contests but pound for pound, meaning if all weights are relatives, don’t wait.

Didn’T matter.

Robinson is still considered at this day in 2022, the greatest fighter that ever lived he fought to 1965.

He was 44.

, so this is, you know, 55 years after he retired and the 50s were his decade.

So if you look at 51, let’s say against La Mata – that’s 71 years after maybe his best fight and he’s still, he still had a great second and third act to come still considered the greatest of all time.

You won the world middleweight title five times and you know even in the fights for the middleweight title that he lost.

You know he still made it a close fight.

He had a retirement party at Madison Square Garden, 65 um.

You also have to remember Robinson, I think, in my opinion, uh, I sort of lean towards Willie Pep or Henry Armstrong, but that’s because Angelo loved Willie, pepperon’s, great friends with him Angela Dundee and he thought pep did more things well than any other fighter.

But when you look at Ray Robinson, sometimes people include what he was like uh out of the ring and he was not the nicest fellow out of the ring for parts of his life, but eventually you know he changed things around.

In that respect, he fought Gene Fulmer when he first fought former he lost the world middleweight title Fulmer was uh middleweight to punch like a super heavyweight.

He was a big rough tank of a man and it all seemed almost impervious to to uh Power punches and the pain, but when they found the rematch Robinson landed.

What Matchmaker, Timmy Brenner called near at Madison Square Garden, the greatest punch ever the perfect punch, Robinson and Henry Wiley set this up uh.

He needed room to punch because he was taller than Fulmer and he had longer arms.

So fomer got him in a clinch Robinson, backed off the ropes former lead with his head coming in Robinson caught him.

The quick left hook that traveled, maybe four to six inches Fulmer was out counted out, and I think that was his greatest Victory.

Along with the Archie Morrow one boxing fans, this is what makes it the greatest sport in the world forever and a day for the next hundred next thousand years will say well Robinson quits after 13th round six minutes away from being the light heavyweight champion.

Is there any way he could have pulled it out? No, you can’t go back in time and change the way that your tactics were used, but also at that point he was exhausted.

He couldn’t he couldn’t stand.

His legs were gone.

He had to be helped and carried from the ring, so there was no way on Earth that Ray Robinson could have hung on.

It was sad because everyone loved Ray Robinson in the minds of Paul of most Americans and fight fans throughout the world.

He had gone.

He had transitioned from being just a great Black Fighter to being considered the greatest fighter pound per pound of all time, and people were pulling for him to beat Maxim.

Who was a good guy but was essentially colorless Maxim, was Bland, boring, drab and always thought a boring type of fight, but he won until he lost Archie more three times in a row.

It was one of the all-time great fights.

I watched it again.

The other day on YouTube, it’s a fight well worth watching, because when Robinson’s dominating Maxim he’s really dominating it Maxim is following him around Robinson is easily slipping his punches, but then you can just see by the you know: 9th 10th 11th round Robinson’s legs are going And now, when, when Maxim’s shooting shots at him Robinson can’t just slip them, you know slide or slide under them.

You know or or duck or whatever he’s just got ta.

He only can pull back.

That’S all he has the energy to do.

He can’t even move out of the way of his legs because his legs are stiff.

His legs are shot so because of that um you had to stand there and take more punishment.

Then um they said uh yeah Nick says: can you imagine Ray Robinson fighting for the world middleweight title 27-28? He was still coming into his own under Harry Wiley.

Then he was still fighting as a welterweight.

He may not have been ready to go up uh at that point, but by the time he was ready to go up the middleweight.

He wasn’t getting the shot he wanted so back.

Then you have to understand guys.

Like Robinson, you know fought 80 times 90 before getting shot at a a world title shot at the weltering title, and one of the reasons was because Mike Jacobs, the promoter said we have too many black Fighters.

That’S it’s not right, and it’s not true, but that’s what he said.

We have too many black Fighters.

The public doesn’t want to see another black world champion.

So we’ll do that.

Another time.

Even those people kept saying he draws tremendous numbers.

He sells out every stadium and on TV he’s the biggest draw in the sport, but still he had to wait to get the shot of Tommy Bell and then had to still go out and win many more times before getting a shot at uh, Jay clemata, and They had six fights, lamanna won the first one, probably the second one didn’t get the decision and then six fights in total and, as lamada said, I fought Robinson so many times.

It’S the wonder I didn’t get diabetes.

Robinson didn’t have much money in his later life, but he was helped out by a lot of people.

One of them was Angela Dundee’s, close friend Mel dick, who was the largest uh purveyor of wine and spirits in the Southern United States and has great stories.

So if you get a chance to talk to Mel, if he’s still out there about Ray Robinson and uh, you know Ray Robinson came to maltix Bar Mitzvah drove him there in His Cadillac and went to his school prom.

Imagine having Ray Robinson in his pink Cadillac driving you and your date to the school prom opening the car door.

For you getting you drinks, I mean it was just a fantasy world for a young kid, so uh Robinson goes down as the greatest fighter of all time pound for pound and uh.

You can say that you can put up any name.

You want as a welterweight or middleweight, including Harry grib, but there’s no one that you could.

You could say Greg would give him a good fight.

Was a very smart fighter only stop once you could say this guy would have given a great fight as a welterweight, but there’s no one.

You can definitively say this guy would have easily beaten Ray Robinson because it just didn’t happen.

You have to understand when you look at the amount of total fights Robinson had you know, I mean 174 wins, 109 Kos and only 19 losses and a lot of those losses were at the end of his career when he was in his middle 40s, and he Only got stopped once by Joey Maxim and the Heat at Yankee Stadium on June 25th, 1952.

.

Watch that fight on YouTube.

It’S got a lot of turns to it.

It just shows you how brilliant um sugary Robinson was and how smart a fight Maxim was fighting by letting Robinson wear himself out.

Uh.

Thank you for watching ring talk, uh.

We will see you next week with another edition of ring talk next Sunday, barring any Interruption for my kidney stone, and we hope you enjoyed today’s episode.

Thank you.

Everyone who, who uh, who commented on the show and please keep coming back to do so uh.

It was a pleasure talking to you today and we’ll see you again soon, I’m Louise and enjoy the rest of your day.

Bye, -bye,