AIR DATE:
EPISODE: Episode 1
Join us in this episode of Ring Talk with Lou Eisen, brought to you by Talkin Fight, as we delve into the life and boxing legacy of Tony Canzoneri. This week, we have the privilege of interviewing renowned author Mark Allen Baker about his latest book on this legendary boxer.
Mark Allen Baker, known for his extensive research and engaging writing, reveals insights into Canzoneri’s career, his impact on the world of boxing, and what inspired him to write about this extraordinary figure. If you’re a boxing enthusiast or a history lover, you won’t want to miss this deep dive into Canzoneri’s life and legacy.
Don’t forget to like, comment, and share this video with your friends and fellow boxing aficionados. For more such insightful conversations, subscribe to the Talkin Fight channel.
Stay tuned until the end of the video where Mark Allen Baker shares some fascinating anecdotes about Tony Canzoneri that didn’t make it into the book!
Transcribed
[, Music, ] foreign [, Music, ] boxing, a historian and writer, and this week on ring talk.
We have one of my favorite authors, we have Mark Allen Baker and he has this fantastic book out on Tony canzoneri panzanari.
As you can see it was.
He was a phenomenal Champion.
He uh a five-time world champion of three weight: division, featherweight, Junior lightweight and lightweight Undisputed Champion.
So when he was the champ, he was the best on Earth and um.
Just in a live charismatic, fantastic person.
He was almost like Ali before Ali, everyone loved him and a wonderful fighter Mark uh, Mark Baker, Mark Allen.
Baker is a business executive and his author of hundreds of articles by the way more than 25 books, uh he’s prolific and Brilliant, and the only person to serve on on the international Boxing Hall of Fame uh.
As an author historian, chairperson, sponsor volunteer and biographer, so he does it all uh.
He also serves on the board of directors of the Connecticut Boxing Hall of Fame, a lot of great Fighters that come out of Connecticut one.
The man that um my mentor Angelo Dundee called the greatest man to ever said foot in the ring.
William pep is from Connecticut and he was also a quoted.
A lifetime award of Merit by the State University of New York in 1922, which is a huge honor, and we are pleased to sponge, to welcome the Magnificent Mark Allen Baker here today on ring talk.
Thank you Lou.
Thank you so much for that wonderful introduction.
Thank you.
I seem to be out of focus, but I don’t know if it’s the screen or just me personally, so we will we’ll see.
I love your book on on Tony canzanari.
The first thing I wanted to ask you, if I wanted to ask you, is his manager, is Sam Goldman? Was he related to Charlie Goldman? Yes, yes, he was he’s a brother.
Okay, that’s what I thought thank you, and so they never really worked together.
I guess in Gold days they didn’t they didn’t they not really in a way, because, because Sammy ended up being more of a correspondent for a while and while he was kind of getting used to the whole uh pugilistic environment, so to speak, uh before he started.
Taking on clients – and he was down in um down in the New Orleans area, working for a paper down there and obviously linked up with Pete, Herman and uh Carey, Pete all the way to the Bantam Championship.
So that worked out extremely well.
And that’s where Mr canzanari fits in.
I can’t believe it somehow.
You know you hear stories all the time on how proximity plays a role in success and then here’s Tony canzanari just living a few blocks away from Pete Herman incredible one of the greatest Banning weight fighters ever to have lived absolutely and they formed a great.
They formed a close relationship, did yeah as close as it could get at the time without being uh too interfering, so to speak.
You know I mean I mean I mean Tony was all ears if you could get Pete to say anything or work with him in the gym.
He was like everybody else.
He was like teach me teach me, teach me, but Pete Herman was also very busy too, and uh Tony took advantage when he could, when he could, and of course you know when all of a sudden Tony’s world gets upset and he’s heading out of town uh.
Here Comes Pete Walton in as a just what a mentor writing a note to his former boxing manager and say: hey, look at you know this guy’s good.
Can you take him under your wing so to speak? And it’s another strange circumstance where you have to say you know I mean what’s Goldman thinking right.
Is he thinking you know, okay, Pete I’ll, take a look at him right or or is it you know for real I mean.
Will he really take a look at him and it worked out great yeah? Absolutely because you you, I would have liked to have seen his face.
Mark Sam Goldman’s face the first time you saw cancer.
I know I well.
I wonder what he thought, because I have a section in the book where uh, some of the guys down in New Orleans finally had a glimpse.
One of them was basil, Galliano and his manager were at the train station and took one look at.
You know a little kid essentially 90 pound, Tony kanzanic.
It wasn’t even 90.
.
I don’t think at that point Lou right and he waltzes off the train and everyone’s like you got to be kidding me right.
You know because here’s dad his dad’s down there, his oldest brother Joseph’s down there and he’s telling these two guys about this kid.
This younger tanzanari kid at home who’s this guy’s the real deal, and it makes you wonder: okay well does did that translate to Goldman or whatever Goldman, really think and Goldman never said much.
It was kind of funny.
He never said much well, it’s interesting because you know Angelo Dundee used to say it’s, not the size of the man in the fight, and you heard this a million times it’s the size of the fight in the man and boy did Tanzania.
We have more fight, but also technically I mean he was a he.
He had everything he would be like a five star, five pool player in baseball tremendous brains could improvise.
You know on the spur of the moment, good punch, brilliant defensively, technically Flawless.
He could do it all more time, yeah one in the zero.
I was surprised I mean he picked up.
He essentially picked up on so many things.
You know so many of the little uh nuances from other Fighters uh, you know being at some of his defensive skills uh.
I picked up some from pal Moore uh, going way way back, uh, obviously listen to whatever Pete Herman said and whatever repeats.
Uh contacts were like uh, but he did he could he could get in there.
He could imitate.
He was quicker than people expected and uh and developed his own style later on and his own voice.
It took a while for him to develop his own voice like a lot of uh pugilists.
He also didn’t Panic under pressure.
Some Fighters do, but he always remained calm.
He always had that.
I guess that’s that Pro experience.
He knows what he had to do.
He knows when he made a mistake and was able to just circumvent it and get going with the fight to put a bad round behind him and still continue going very true and it drove people nuts.
I there’s a there’s a point where Joey Adams said – and he may have said it to newspapers – said it in his book, though Tony used to drive him nuts, because Tony never got nervous and Tony would show up like a minute before the show and was ready To go and – and it would drive Joey crazy because he’s like you’re not nervous, it also drove that same.
That same attitude was what he had in the ring I mean he’d show up to fight whenever he felt like it.
He wasn’t bothered by anything and uh.
Just got on with the show he had a job to do and knew how to do it.
Yeah.
You know Ali once said it’s just a job.
You know the waves hit the sand.
People fly kites.
I beat people up, it’s what I do God.
I can’t imagine that I can’t imagine that attitude.
I mean you think mostly because when you read some of these other books, you know some of these guys are nervous.
You know someone won’t even talk to anybody.
I mean it’s that bad I mean.
Amber’S was like that Amber’s was a nervous wreck.
He didn’t want anybody to talk to him and, and everybody knew it so everyone left them alone.
But here comes Tony and you know nothing’s bothering Tony the list of guys he fought and beat is is stunning, but what’s up what’s what’s upsetting to me? Is you want to go out? I want to go out in the street to boxing fans or anyone and take the book and say you got to read this because it’s not just Tony canzanari, it’s American history, which is world history, it’s a slice in time and the depression and it’s showing how People survived in such a terrible time and cansonery gave these people hope, not just Italian people, yeah yeah.
That’S a great analysis on your part very, very true, and I couldn’t wait to get into them after having an opportunity to write, um, Lou, Amber’s, biography and see the world from Lou’s perspective.
Man, Upstate New York at that time period and what Louie had to do to get recognized back up and Upstate.
It was all I mean he didn’t have.
I mean Tony eventually had the luxury of New York City, but Lou was Upstate in the train and for me it was wonderful to the comparison of Amber’s, Upstate, New York and Tony downstate, and what they had to go to go through to get any kind of Legitimate recognition uh, it was it’s just it’s just quite an it was a plus.
Like you said it’s an interesting period.
I mean people, don’t realize just how hard the 30s really were.
You know from from 29 to 33 and 32 in particular, uh.
The Depression was just so so challenging so so challenging.
I know that Chris Dundee was telling me that the main thing McLaren and Ross Lou, ambers and cansonery gave people more than excitement and entertainment was hope.
Yes, oh you definitely and yeah I mean, and what what a grouping too you know and uh.
It was a very I mean when you look at at Ross, McLaren and canzanari.
Okay, that’s understandable! Coming from those big cities, just what the popularity they can, they can Garner from those markets were, and then they add ambers onto the list and then the Dynamics of trying to work Amber’s into the whole background of the pieces for the championship was interesting too, because Kansas area was reluctant to fight ambers, I mean he knew he wanted big for a while.
He wanted the big money and Goldman wanted the big money and he was, I mean Kansas, wasn’t going to bring canzanari an audience that he didn’t already have where Ross and McLaren would, and so I mean it, was interesting to see those Dynamics, and you know that Amherst would even work his way into it and that uh, you know just how that trans that also that transition of Kansas area’s mentor to ambers and because Amber is a former former sparring partner right.
You know it’s.
It’S interesting, even Fighters today demand these.
I mean you couldn’t pay Kansas today.
Would they be worth you’re looking at? You know tens of millions per fight if they’re funding today, but and there’s no one around today.
That has those skills, but so many fighters today don’t understand that it comes down to asses.
In the seats – and you want to say to a guy – I I don’t want to pick names, Devin Haney or someone and say yeah, no one’s saying they’re, not great, but people aren’t paying money to see.
You and people paid money to see Kansas area and you only get to be champ for in such a short time.
As you well know, you have to make the most money while you have that title and they and those guys could really work.
The title – and I give some credit to their management too uh, of how how the four of them were able to work, work that title and keep it competitive and keep it interesting and for a person like, like McLaren, blows me away all the time on how He could just he always had that Revenge Factor like he couldn’t wait to get in the ring the second time with a fighter just to – and you know just to prove this – it was a vendetta and so McLaren was always into you know.
Obviously, canzanari beat McLaren in before McLaren just pounded, canzanari literally, and I think in some ways not to get ahead of ourselves.
That was very much a turning point for for canzanari’s career that pounding by McLaren.
Well, he he gave McLaren the worst beating of his career.
I mean and – and I read that before that fight and Andrew gallimore’s book um Babyface goes to Hollywood – that it was personal.
The canzanari made comments about McLaren’s wife.
I don’t know if that’s true or not uh yeah.
I heard that as well, and I think that came from a New York City paper when she accompanied him to New York.
I think that that rings a bell with me, even outside of the source that you mentioned so right.
I think he may have said something uh.
I can’t believe he would say it um in a way to hurt McLaren, but maybe a little early trash talk.
I mean it could surface.
We know that yeah.
I always always take that before grain of salt, because after the war Lewis meant schmelling and schmelling said, I never said any of those things about you and Louis just said yeah.
I know and well you’ve been so worried that that Lewis had read that you know he’s he’s not trying to say he couldn’t fight because he was black and he wasn’t smart because he was black and smelly, never said any of that it was just complete height.
Complete garbage yeah and that’s and that’s the hard part of being a writer tune, going back and weeding through some of this stuff, because it goes back to the old days where they would put these.
You know these matches in the paper before if the fighters met terms and say so and so is going to fight so-and-so and it looks like it’s a it’s a done deal and it’s going to be at abbots field and and that stuff used to happen.
All the time and they would create vendettas and if problems between Fighters and confrontations, I think it stems from those old days of course, matching’s.
One thing meeting terms as you and I know is a totally different perspective.
Right, yeah and – and I know McLaren sued New York newspapers because they call them the Jew killer and he said my hero is Benny Leonard.
He said these guys, I’m fighting it’s not personal.
It’S business, I’m I’m friends with Al singer, I’m friends of all these guys.
You know I’m friends of Barney Ross, I it’s not personal, it’s just business, you know and he didn’t like you know.
He didn’t like being called that, but you know with with a guy as hands and everything I mean was liked by so many people.
I mean his opponents like them and you you have so many great stories in your book, but especially at Shore when McLaren Taps on his shoulder and then gives him a big hug.
And I mean they all love them.
Oh yeah, they just literally loved him and you can see it.
I mean I just was reading Joey’s book, but I mean the introductions I mean Sinatra: does an introduction to the book to short as an introduction to the book.
The List is endless, I mean uh.
They have so many people uh that they knew and worked with and then going back to uh.
You know some of the these.
These things these remarks and stuff I mean I need there’s so many that are just not and that’s why I like going to.
I don’t use a lot of uh books per se.
I use a lot of eyewitness accounts because I found they’re the best because I can weed through three or four different accounts and get the right account and uh.
That’S what I try to do with most of the books here you see most of the source material is direct from from newspapers and even those you know you got to be real careful with too, but but McFarland who publishes my the boxing biographies in some of My other books, a gentleman, mentioned the garden book uh that um uh.
They demand it, you know they, don’t they don’t go for hypotheticals, they don’t go for uh rumors, and so I try to stick pretty much to the material with three good sources and and then go with that.
If I can that’s that’s a that’s.
I think the Salient point for all writers, because when you set the standard because Angela Dundee would say to me, don’t go on Facebook with these stupid pile of games, you know, Jim McLaren would have beaten, Jess, Willard and Angela’s like well.
Well, it was six seven.
He was a heavyweight, McLaren was a Welter.
That’S an ignorant comment to make well.
Mclaren would have beaten Ray Leonard.
Well, we don’t know two different eras.
You can’t say so.
Yeah Angela always had so many good stories.
I was lucky enough.
You know I I date back aways, believe it or not.
I know it’s hard with all the gray hair, but but I actually saw Jimmy McLaren in person, wow, Canastota and uh, and I always kid around with some of my boxing group here in Connecticut.
The first Boxer, the first Connecticut boxer I ever corresponded with with and everybody says.
Oh don’t tell me it’s going to be Willie Pep.
That was actually Gene.
Tony.
I actually wrote the Gene Tunney when I was a kid and and Tony wrote back.
So that’s that’s.
Where all this stems from, I used to try to get my information directly from the source.
Sometimes they were cooperative and other times they they were.
You know one time.
Uh Toronto has a well-known, Caribbean Festival.
Every year used to be called caribana, then they had to change the name.
There was another one somewhere called caribana and one year Floyd Mayweather Jr showed up and he’s, and so I got a phone call, but I mean a lot of people.
Did he wanted to appear at a gym local boxing gym, but he wanted 50 Grand to appear for an hour to talk to kids, and everyone said what I said to him.
You know boxing is a niche sport now, but in Canada I mean it’s it.
It’S so little money.
These gyms are kept open by government subsidies.
So no one’s going to have that kind of money, and especially since Ali used to go to a lot of these gyms and speak for two three hours for nothing.
They just don’t have that money and back in the day like junetunny, he wrote to someone now you’d have to pay, whereas guys, like Tony, were such a gentlemen and canzanari, who you know, would sign autographs for hours for people just to see him, he would influence Their life just to see that smile, like you, said in that bar he’s walking out of his bar and he smiles at some guys how you doing and it made their life 40 50 years later.
They remember the moment as if it was yesterday and it’s so funny, because I’ve had other people say, that’s the same thing that happened to us or the same thing that happened.
I was talking to a writer Colleen Aycock, familiar with some of her books, but she was saying Mark.
That was the same thing that happened to my dad.
When we were in New York he wanted to chase down uh canzanari, so he went into to uh, canzanari’s bar and sure enough.
He was in there and had his picture taken with him wow but uh.
That story was a true story, and I opened with that, because I wanted to bring the readers down to where Kansas and area would feel comfortable, where they would feel comfortable and realize that he was just an ordinary guy.
I mean he was a guy, could come up to and talk to her and sit down and he and he could play an audience too.
So he saw these guys and I know the guys so he saw the guys and so he lifted the big names.
You know like Ross and McLaren, and you know he played a crowd real well, but he was so personable and he had produced perfect, perfect house for a place like that and for any sports bar actually right and it’s interesting testing that his boxing timing translated to Comedic timing – I guess timing is timing.
He was just the the lines you have in your book.
I mean he was very funny.
He knew what he was doing.
Oh yeah, very much.
I don’t know if he I don’t know how much it looks like Joey contributed.
A lot but Joey stole a lot too if you go through and he but he credits them.
You know he’ll say I picked this up from.
You know: Henny young men or I picked this up from Milton Berle or whatever he’ll go back, but it is interesting.
Ironic, because Burl’s the biggest of all the thieves, but he was a great comic, very very good comment.
Yeah, it’s interesting um! You know when I, when I was reading your book Cam’s in area, how much of his because he needed money at the end of his career.
I guess, which is why he fought on how much of him, how much of him needing the money was.
He overspent his income like Joe Lewis or the mob stole it, or he just didn’t get as much as he was supposed to get.
The answer to that is.
He was almost a Ponzi scheme scheme of Investments, that’s what I saw where he would start a business and get it going for a while and then, as it started, to fade off a little bit.
He’D start another business, and you know he was in so many different closed, clothing store liquor store and then he started the uh, the resort up in marble and uh when it was under his name.
His dad ran it for a while and the family lived there and it was a wonderful place for them.
There’S wonderful stories about how much the family enjoyed it, but but unfortunately there wasn’t a lot of business conducted, probably a good balance sheet business being conducted and as a resort uh as a no pun intended Tony had to keep on fighting her educate or had to Start another business to to finance his arrears on taxes, uh construction bills.
I mean I mean I you could just go through the newspaper and it was like every few months.
You know there was bills that weren’t paid.
It was unfortunate because he really felt strapped and wouldn’t say anything to his parents.
He was a wonderful son and and cherished his parents, and I it was hard.
I mean, I wonder how much he regretted he never said a word about it and to the press or the media that I found.
He never said.
Oh Dad ran the business into the ground or we shouldn’t have done this or we shouldn’t have done that or shouldn’t have put another.
You know another floor on the hotel, but they did and etc, etc, but he he never said that, where I I never saw him bitter toward his family or anything like that.
Do you think that contributed to his early death, all the financial burdens and the faculty? He never seemed to have a day off just to relax and enjoy himself sure sure he did never see, but he liked the pace he liked that New York City peso.
He he was, he loved the nightlife.
I mean he loved the nightlife uh.
He and Rita loved the nightlife they loved going out.
They befriended Sullivan Winchell Wilson uh.
They loved falling in into all their gossip columns um, but I really think he just he just uh a lot of bad Investments chased after him.
I.
I really think that you didn’t say: did Sam Goldman help him and there really no one there to guide him in that sense.
Well, Sam was involved in some Sam was involved with a clothing store.
I know that right, so I think Sam helped a little.
I don’t know exactly you know: Sam kept cards close to the vessel a lot of times he didn’t say much either to the press and he after Tony started speaking he even backed off more, but I I just you know.
I know the answer.
Your question is, I don’t think he he did that much for him from financially from a financial perspective I mean, maybe he pulled back a few percentages on a fight or whatever, but I I that never surfaced that I saw yeah it’s sad that I mean these.
You know you look at a guy.
Like Joe Lewis and Lewis said I just overspent my income.
He said Mike Jacob said to me to put 50 of every dollar I made in a bank account for the IRS, and I didn’t no.
I just kept spending and spending because I thought it would last forever in the course yeah and Tony did he was always talking.
I mean you see that in the book he’s always talking.
Oh, maybe I’ll open this over here or maybe I’ll get involved a promotion business somewhere in the midwest or down south and uh.
I I think it what it ended up being.
Is he kept on? Like I said, he’d start one business.
He started failing get another business to help finance that business when the other business started.
Failing get a third business to finance that and then and then the Marlboro situation.
I mean that just aided him financially and uh.
He was so lucky because he really got himself out of all of it when he got when he, you know teamed up with Joey Adams, because those guys started charging.
They got big money.
I mean I put a list in there.
I mean not that they were.
You know, Martin and Lewis, but I but I put in there some of the salaries that these guys got and they did very well for themselves and Tony said at one point that he was out of Hawk.
Essentially, thanks to teaming up with Joey Adams – that’s incredible, you know, I’m unreal, I mean, and, and they had they were so good at building connections.
They really were yeah.
They, they were a great team, but they come out of hot must have been tremendous.
You know relief to him what you know when I’m wondering is at the time that he fought boxing.
I I guess, since the carpanche Dempsey fight was controlled by the mob and only the killer.
Madden was the guy until 32-33 and did – and I know that McLaren, for instance, McLaren’s manager, pop Foster, was childhood friends with Madden, so Madden didn’t take money from McLaren but of course, Force McLaren to keep fighting long pass when McLaren really wanted to keep fighting and Did they affect in any way canzenary um, I mean he would have had to have dealt with him in some way because they controlled the sport yeah exactly I mean being in and and I talk about it, it starts coming up in the book when I start Talking about some of the things Sammy Mandel faced in Chicago, where he was getting death, threats, Etc, when he was fighting canzanari um Adams alludes to the fact that you know that they’re always figures waiting outside uh the showroom to meet and and talk to Tony um Yeah, I think there were some element in that uh.
It didn’t surface to me as much through my sources as maybe it did through other people’s, but you know it wasn’t like Avital when I was writing about Avital.
I couldn’t ignore it when I was writing about Willie Pap.
It surfaced because it was in the in the papers and a lot of it, and I had to cover the macri murders, for example right, but uh it didn’t it didn’t surface as much and as much as now had Tony fought 10 years later.
I could have, it could have been totally different, I think, but did they have a hand? I don’t think he could avoid.
I don’t think anybody who fought as many times in Madison Square Garden could have not had a hand in something as Tony Tommy Tony just fought so many times.
I loved your book on which I have on avettel and I the the thing with tell and in Cantona you know, people today don’t realize, like they’ll, say: Sinatra played mob on clubs.
All entertained back then, was owned by the mob because they were the only ones during the Depression with the income, as you know, with the disposable income to keep it running.
No one else could Financial losses, so you, you know you had to deal with them and I mean Barney Ross dealt with Capone on a very low level, but McLaren dealt with only Madden you just you know you had to.
There was no way around it and I think you know in some ways it was good.
It just didn’t seem as strong as it did 10 years later, when, when the mob just owned Fighters, you know we had Saxon and gabling.
We know all the stories of what these guys face.
Then you know it.
Maybe it was hidden more.
I I don’t know I didn’t surface as much did I know it was there.
Yeah did I know uh there were some mom members up at Tony’s Hotel up in Marlboro yeah yeah.
I knew that, but I just didn’t see that impact as much on his life as it was on other Fighters.
Uh like like a towel yeah.
I know that uh with guys like that, it’s uh in the book I read Anonymous and I tried to contact the author.
He just passed away British author.
He said that in his book that um a lot of times back then in the 20s and 30s it was competition between the gangsters, so they really wanted to see which fighter was the better fighter rather than although there were fights that were definitely fixed.
But there was a story about Charlie Phil Rosenberg Ray arcel with training him and he was supposed to.
He was fighting for the bantamweight title and he just he.
He they couldn’t keep him away from the women and he kept eating too much food, and so only Madden grabbed him and said.
You’Re gon na stay in my apartment on the side and and Phil Rosenberg Charlie Phil stayed there with our cell and brought brought rosenberg’s mother in to cook, and he made the way but Madden thought well.
You know he’s going to lose because he’s been out every night, so he bet a couple thousand against him and Rosenberg won easily and ourselves said to Rosenberg you better get out of New York for a bit six months.
It’S gon na kill you.
I think I remember I uh, I think I know in this book uh the battle I mean one singer lost the fight to Canton area, his battle against Jaime Kaplan and uh.
It was kind of an interesting interlude.
I put it in the book because you know some people thought singer, dumped a fight and and to see that Kaplan bet so much money on singer and was furious at the fighter.
After the fight I mean Fury said they had a fisticuffs and they wanted nothing to do with each other, and I covered that whole the Dynamics of all that and if singer, I think singer just got caught with a punch but yeah, and that happens yeah I Mean because I mean you know, I mean you know that whole story so but uh oh yeah, put that in there specifically because somebody said well, he probably dumped the fight if he, if he lost in 36 seconds like he did at Kansan air, and I just Think he he was just caught with a punch in that case, especially knowing what happened afterwards and and how bad he wanted to to beat the Daylights out of Kaplan and their whole fight there and how Kaplan then had the audacity.
You know what you know.
I mean singer, wanted his contract back and Kaplan, wouldn’t give it to him.
So I cover all the Dynamics.
They didn’t realize it.
It was probably a lucky punch, so yeah, but people don’t realize even at featherweight canzanari could hit like a Welter or super welder.
He had a phenomenally heavy hands, he could do damage to a lot of guys.
He had heavy hands and he had small hands.
He had custom, you know, Goldman was always trying to get.
He didn’t like the bigger gloves.
So Goldman would try hard always to get.
You know the cusp, as many custom-made mitts into the picture as possible, because Tony’s hands were so small, but Tony could pack a punch, a big time punch when he wanted to yeah it’s it’s interesting.
How you know in your book that he had guys heard and he he didn’t put them away? You know he he he showboated and and took his time winning out of points decisions, and you know sometimes Fighters want the work but other times it.
You know when, like when McLaren fought cancer the second time and had him hurt, he wanted to punish him.
You know he he could have let his hands go much more, but he wanted to keep him around punishment and punish him.
It was canceled everything when he showboated was that just really showing off or was it just? I wanted to work – or I just wanted to embarrass this guy, because you know a lot of guys like Langford even years before, who had to put up with stuff at various Fighters and purposely punished Fighters is to prove their manager or someone else wrong.
I I wish he didn’t do it especially early on I.
I think it would have been a lot better if he didn’t.
I think I think he it became part of his personality.
Initially the show buddy and everything did it and then so that it gradually.
He pulled back a little bit, but it was real bad at the beginning.
You know – and I was when I’m right when I’m researching all this.
I couldn’t believe that he would take the attitude he was taken in the ring and making fun of certain individuals, but it slowly gradually got pulled back a little bit, which was good, which I think helped him in the long run uh did he hold back yeah.
He pulled uh, he got the one that comes to mind is: is Johnny Dundee when he fought Johnny Dundee.
I mean the first few rounds, I mean the crowd was going nuts saying, you know you guys got ta fight, I mean you’re, not fighting he’s pulling punches.
Of course Dundee.
He hadn’t been in a ring for a long time and canzanari had and and the two ended up being best friends too, I mean they would go out and burn the Midnight Oil constantly both of them, so he didn’t want to hurt him really.
This is one of his idols very much very much, as was Leonard well, you brought up the name, Benny Leonard and uh boy, that name surfaces for he was an idol of so many fighters.
I wish I wish he had lived longer to realize just what a wonderful impact he had on boxing.
I really did I mean to die at 46.
.
A lot of those guys from that era died.
Young I mean Barney Ross died in 67 at a young age, but Benny Leonard, you know I mean lost all those money in in depression was forced to come back and I don’t know if it’s true or not, but McLaren was saying to him I’ll help.
You out, I don’t want to hurt you yeah.
I believe that McLaren would say that you know I don’t.
I don’t want you to take this fight.
I don’t want to do this to you, but then again Foster said to him what Goldman said to Marciano but Lewis.
If you really love him, get him out of there, quick, don’t torture, him wow! You know I.
I can see McLaren saying that, though I can based on what I because he said he said certain things in the past that you read about even about canzanari.
He didn’t want to beat the cantoners.
He could have done canzanari a lot worse, but he beat him, though a pulp, the second flight fight, because he was ticked off at the first one right and uh.
I don’t know how much the wife comments about the wife if they were true played in it, but uh McLaren did that to everybody, but he didn’t give canzanari near a whooping that can’t that McLaren had done to some of the other people in the past.
So you go through the list, so I think it was a little easy on Tony.
I think Tony made out better than than most people, but McLaren was a great fighter.
I never I would have you know if I was a fighter or if I was a manager, I would have told him to fight McLaren once but never get my rematch well.
He was like Joe Lewis.
He would just Savage you.
He did it petrol and and um I mean there’s a name: Billy Petro, the Fargo Express they had the best names back.
Then it’s unbelievable to me that more people don’t know him that he didn’t have a world title and and then you’re reading in your book about cancer and getting ready for another fight and golden puts him in with petrol.
Just to keep him going like warm-up fight.
A warm-up fight with Billy petrol are you out of here.
I know I know and, and I believe, if you go back and I’ve been asked, this question: when was the peak or what was the best fight cans in Kansas area ever fought? It was with Billy in 1932.
The 32 fight he was canzanari was never better.
I mean in that fight.
Everything I read was like.
This was the best fight canzania canzanari ever gave, and that’s one I wish I would have seen because because people ask you know what was it you know was it Berg was it you know? Was it Ross? Was it Amber’s? I think it was Billy because that set that fight in 32.
uh was amazing.
Now that was a good fight.
Chris Dundee told me that the first time he fought Jackie kidberg got the decision, but he said cans and everyone.
The fight he said Burke had out wow or Jimmy Johnson.
I think it was behind him and he said Chris said I was at that fight.
No one’s going to tell me kid.
Burke beat him yeah.
I’Ve heard that I’ve heard it not from Dundee, but I’ve heard that perspective and I believe that I believe I’m not a big Chris Dundee fan for some of the things he’s done in the past.
But but I certainly respect him and you know everybody loves Angelo, and you can add me to that list too.
I don’t think, there’s anybody nicer or was anybody nicer, and I spent a lot of time talking to him in Canastota and um Angelo Dundee’s sacred man uh.
It was a gift reminds me, and I’m so lucky, because I’ve had a chance to meet some of these people and spend time with them.
Talk to them.
Ask them questions about everybody, and it’s been great over the years.
Well, I have to, I was lucky: I met him when I was 13 when I went down to Maplewood Gardens to see Jose.
Napoli’S is fighter fight, Clyde gray for the title wow, my father.
Let me stay after and I met Angelo and you know I’m talking to him and he said you want to meet the big guy and he never called Muhammad Muhammad.
He called him.
The big guy and Ali came out and I just looked up and cried: oh wow, I’m 13.
, I’m not you know.
This is my hero.
My whole bedroom’s got photos of Ali.
I mean you’re not supposed to meet your hair on 13 and and I just looking up and then I worked with him in the movie Cinderella Man and for the first couple weeks.
We sat there and watched black and white films and one of the films was canzenari and kid chocolate and and uh.
He just said: yeah boy.
If you didn’t see Kansas, you never saw the real thing.
It’S got a good fight that was a great fight and what I couldn’t believe was the kid cans and everyone’s to fight.
There’S no doubt about that, but kid chocolates crying after and it’s upset oh yeah.
How can you be upset? He clearly beat you it’s.
It’S not debatable, but he had never had that happen and then uh not like that and that that one that one fight was incredible.
The film’s incredible watching them, both fight and tearing to each other, is incredible.
Lou ambers actually hitched a ride, uh uh, while he he went on the train.
I don’t know you know, I don’t recall the whole story off top of my head, but I put in the book, but the Ambrose was actually in the crowd and watched.
The fight and choco was a another figure, who’s, a fantastic career and a great fighter, very underrated and the two of them.
They could have a battle between the two of them love fashion, and that was the one thing they always shared to.
Each other is like who dressed better.
You know because canzoneri had, I think he said, 52 suits at one time and wow man.
Chocolate was a sharp dresser too, and always looked great and uh, but that was incredible fight.
It’S on YouTube.
You can catch most of it, but but that’s a great fight and and the killer the killer look is what if canzaneri made the 130 pounds and got the other and got the uh, the junior lightweight title right and then it would have four.
You know I mean that would have been incredible and people forget people forget that yeah yeah.
I don’t think they realized at that point: Kansas the best fighter on Earth pound for pound and that’s a bold statement when you consider all the other great Fighters.
But you know from 125 you’d have to say up to 135 or 140.
he’s the best.
You know, and I know rare cell someone asked for yourself.
They said it was the only time Marcel got angry.
That is it true that Benny Leonard had six fights or Joe Gans or different guys, Amber’s or canzanari, and he said not fix in the way you think of it today he said it.
It was fixed in the sense that someone had to say to them.
If you get in the ring with Joe Gans or or canzanari or Amber it’s a McLaren they’ll promise not to kill you within one or two rounds.
They’Ll.
Let the fight go six, seven eight rounds, they would they would.
I buy that and I from everything I’ve read.
I agree with that because he said it was a tech yeah.
It was a terrifying Prospect to look over and see Tony canson there in the other Corner thinking this guy’s three division world champion.
You know I’ve got 70 fights, but and after around thinking I I can’t fight this guy.
This guy’s way out of Miami Yeah Boy, true boy, true, and I said, and every time I think, of Tanzania.
Okay, so maybe he goes over the peak of his performance, but then to get in a ring with uh Barney Ross.
I know some people have been hard on me.
They think I’m have a vendetta on against Barney Ross.
I do not Barney Ross is incredible.
Incredible fighter he was a war hero and uh and Ross I mean I put in put in the book that that Ross was somewhat hesitant to fight canzaneri a third time, not because he was scared and that’s a misinterpretation.
And maybe I didn’t make that clear.
Ross said numerous times he didn’t want to fight Kansas because he couldn’t figure him out because every time he got in the ring every time and he did a series of Articles – and I read them all – and he said I would get in one minute – he wouldn’t Use the left jab second round he just danced around and made me lead third round.
He led every every every situation is like he couldn’t Ross, couldn’t get a grip on him and that’s why he didn’t want to fight.
It was too much work too much work to fight canzanario.
A third time had nothing to do with with Ross not being able to beat him or nothing to do with Ross.
Being scared.
Ross is a gifted fighter gifted fighter and deserves all the accolades he’s got.
I don’t think it came across in the book at all that you were empty.
I think you’re just making a point yeah, you know.
How can you fight a guy? That’S not the same type, not only every fight, but every round it’s just too difficult.
It’S like Ali and Ken: are you can’t figure it out? Why bother with it? It’S very true: if you can’t get a read on a guy and then opposite to that you look, you know you’re reading about canzania going through it and all of a sudden, you see a name like like Johnny jadick.
You know pop up and saying to yourself: how could he be canzanary twice jadick just had you know in the same way, and you know you love baseball as much as I do.
In the same way, a pitcher gets a batter and can get him out constantly.
Jade, it could always find a way, a hole in canzanari’s defense and take advantage of them, and we know that from baseball right and that some pitchers they just couldn’t get certain pitters just hit the Daylights out of them yeah.
There were some guys there.
I think it was um uh mantles said.
If you had to go against Robin Roberts, or there was some other person he would just throw up, and when you watched him play against Colfax and the Yankees you you know they.
There was no argument like they are today with hitters co-facts of throw strike.
Three a man will just turn and walk away.
Why argue? Okay very true, very true.
We share an interest for the for the Blue Jays.
Oh yeah yeah.
I used to own um a bar in Syracuse, where AAA Blue Jays, where I’m getting off the boxing circuit, but I just want to let you know that they used to hang out in the bar a lot of the early 90s blue jay boys yeah back in The 20s and 30s you know boxing baseball and horse racing.
Were these Sports? Oh yeah, Tony love, the horses horses.
A lot of people did Willy Willy loved the horses.
A lot of I mean Dempsey.
Of course I love the horses.
I mean they love.
They love we’re, putting a wager on always it’s a thrill.
No, we have.
We have a ton of questions here.
Scrapbook boxing is a gentleman who writes in all the time said that he has cancer every nine all time on on the great list and wow, and he says not only a great fighter but a magnificent gentleman now he says the last bell boxing Mark.
I am based in the UK and I’ve read your book between the robes at Madison Square Garden.
Can I just say what a fantastic book that is and how much I enjoyed it.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much, I’m so grateful and I’ve been.
I write about you know a kid around.
There’S a guy.
I go to a lot of music shows and, as a guy said Mark you know you should be writing about country music.
You shouldn’t be writing about boxing, but I go back.
I mean I.
I went back to him and said you know: people like McGraw or Taylor.
Swift, you know, Brad Paisley they’ll have hundreds of biographies written about him, a man like avatel, very few.
You know a man like katel or atal and Amber’s uh.
I enjoy writing about these guys.
I enjoy writing about the things I really believe in the Madison Square Garden book.
Thank you so much.
I wrote about the ring.
That’S in Canastota and the history of the ring uh.
That’S there and uh the story behind it and how the ring is essentially a petri dish for our culture and – and that was the basis of the book and not much a fantastic book, and I got to tell you not much bigger than a patriot Jason.
I I probably shouldn’t say this: I was there beside the ring with Angelo and Angela said, take your shoes off and I was smart enough to know not the smartest guy.
Obviously, but I was smart enough to know when Angela said something I would just say.
Yes, sir, and do it now get in a ring, I said Angel.
There’S these huge signs, you can’t touch the ring, you can’t get just getting it and I step in the ring for one set.
Oh and he says, take three steps forward and I did where are you now? I said I I said: I’m set a ring right so now get out put your shoes on you.
Imagine Ali had to fight Frasier like that Ali who danced and needed a big ring in three steps or less Frazier was on him rounds.
Can you imagine that a guy wants? Well, it gets you.
Doesn’T it I mean yeah, you felt it.
You know what it’s like: yeah, it’s it’s.
It was just unbelievable and all the history in that ring – and we were talking about – I mean you – have such a wide diversity of books, but the great thing about a tell book and Amber’s book and canzanarias you’re bringing them – and this gets emotional with me, you’re.
Bringing them back to life you’re, putting Flesh on them you’re, bringing them into the into this Century, you’re saying to people this person matters, you have to know about him and that’s one of the things I love about you most among many is that you’re you’re saying You know there’s nothing on this guy, that’s not acceptable to me.
The world wants to know about this person.
Thank you very much and I got ta say I mean even with with the Embers I mean, I got emotional at the end of the book.
I was all tears, I know what demand I mean I walked.
I mean this is how crazy I am.
I mean I went to his hometown, not that it’s that far away it’s three hours, three and a half hours but uh, I walked every step.
I saw his house, I saw the church where he worked out and you know I went to the grid his family grave.
I visited his grave of his spiritual advisor.
You know I haven’t done that yet to go to Marlboro, but that’s a side trip.
I’M gon na have because these guys mean that much to me they really do and I got involved with this historical Societies in the towns, and you know I hear from these people I hear from members of the Italian family I hear from members of you know: Did the Amber’s Family that and it’s just such an honor, to have the opportunity to bring these guys to life, though it means something to me.
It really really does you know and uh, and that’s why I write that’s why I write what I write about.
You know you won’t see.
Probably the more you don’t see me probably do a book on Mayweather, not that he doesn’t deserve many because he does, but but I’ll stick to some of these other guys.
The quiet guys that nobody they’ve kind of slipped between the cracks because because they deserve it, Kenzie deserved it.
I’M glad to see there’s another Canton area book.
I hope, there’s more yeah Angelo said to me.
I told him.
I was working in a book about Muhammad and um.
He said um there’s already a million books in Muhammad write about Canadian Fighters that were world champions that no one knows about or remembers.
He said write about Johnny, culon yeah, that’s a great one right there and and write about lubric.
He said write about other guys.
He said Ali’s got a million books.
You don’t need to write any more in alley, blue Connecticut boy, you know yeah! Definitely I mean you know, I see a question pop up.
Yes, the ambers and server were cousins.
Absolutely we didn’t know that yeah they worked in their.
You know: Lou worked with them uh when Dempsey did uh Dempsey was in charge of some training; they wouldn’t help them.
I put in the Amber’s book, but uh and Marty was a good fighter until the Graziano fight right so but uh but uh they were cousins.
Uh and Lou helped them a lot, yeah no question about it and then Marty was handled by Al whale too too.
So was a Welter yeah that was poor, matchmaking that essentially ended horrible yeah and that’s and that’s another issue matchmaking.
You know what makes you wonder.
Sometimes I mean I, I know you go to fights and I go to fights too and I’ve seen Commissioners really give some of these guys help or some of the matches that they make and a good and good good good good people will yeah.
I hope I hope they’re more selective in the matches.
It helps it helps the sport well for yes and for a short time for a couple years, I worked for Lennox Lewis here in Toronto when he had his company Global Legacy.
Boxing and so you’d have certain guys in Toronto.
I’M not going to mention, but they’d have a fighter that was 10-0 and you match them with a guy who was who was maybe um, uh uh, uh tan and seven who’d lost his last five fights and they go.
Do you have someone easy and they give you a name and I would and then or you’d give them another name? Okay, this guy’s three and fourteen uh, no someone easier and then I go to Lennox and Linux would just say: forget it tell them they’re not on the card anymore good for him yeah.
I don’t want to put up with that.
You know I mean and that’s how people get hurt very true.
I like Linux, a lot.
I had a quick story here as I I was uh stay in Canastota first, and I was that Conestoga for his induction staying at a hotel and he was three rooms down for me.
He stayed in Syracuse.
He didn’t stay in at turning stone or in Canastota, but we had to act some nice conversations with him.
I really liked Linux yeah.
He was great.
I was I was there that year he was um.
He had some wonderful stories uh.
I there was a time here: um he shares a birthday one or two days apart from shuallo, so there was a private parting form at a club for the rapper Drake who lives in Toronto and they had lennox’s or George’s um cake out there, and there were A lot of people celebrating and then the people running the club brought a big cake out for Lennox and Lennox his eyes open wide and he rented them.
No, no, no, no, no get in the kitchen.
This is George’s night.
No, no! Don’T do this don’t spoil this, please don’t put it away candles out, throw it away, put it back in the Box.
No, this is only georgian’s night, not mine, please so he yeah a very classy guy.
You know: okay Graziano began his pro career as a welterweight before moving up to middleweight.
He had boats with Harold green.
That’S true um it.
I know it’s an impossible question to answer.
Um.
You can’t rank when you ranked the greatest Italian fighters of all time, because there’s hundreds that were fantastic, oh God, rank right up one or two very much.
I’M honored that I was able to well.
I mean I’ve written written, a few uh biographies and some I mean I love being from Connecticut.
I love Willie Pap.
Of course I do.
I love blue ambers, you know in Canton area, I’ve done I’ve done, five biographies on Fighters and three of them have been Italian and maybe it goes because my kids are Italian, I don’t know – or my wives were Italian – I don’t know but uh.
The Italians had some great great Fighters and, and God bless because I love most of them – you know they gave.
I can you know, there’s a lot of great Jewish Fighters.
There’S a lot of great Irish Fighters right.
You know – and I just I just want enough time to to bring these all these people to light, and let people hear about some of them like Amber’s in cantoners and realize how you know, but I naturally, I put cans in every way out there without questioning It’S I mean he’s one of the greatest Fighters, regardless of his ethnicity.
Every two have lived very true.
You can’t have a top 10 list of greatest Fighters.
This is another thing I wanted to bring up and it has to make you laugh on Facebook and other forums.
Each of the greatest fighters of all time and the greatest puncher they’ll say is – is Tyson Fury and greatest popular? Is this guy and you’re thinking?
Contact The Hosts