AIR DATE:
EPISODE: Episode 1
This week on Ring Talk with Lou Eisen, we look back at one of the most iconic fights in boxing history, the Muhammad Ali vs. Ken Norton III fight for the world heavyweight title. Lou will break down the fight and discuss how the two fighters were able to battle for over 15 rounds and how the fight forever changed the sport of boxing. He will also discuss the aftermath of the fight and its long-lasting impact on the sport and its fans. Don’t miss out on a fascinating discussion of one of the greatest fights of all time. Tune in to Ring Talk with Lou Eisen now!
#TalkinFight #RingTalk #MuhammadAli #KenNorton #BoxingHistory #BoxingLegends #BoxingFights #WorldHeavyweightTitle #September28th1976 #SportsofLegends #LouEisen #FascinatingDiscussion
Transcribed
[ Music ] foreign good afternoon, I’m boxing historian and writer and author, and this is ring talk and today we’re going to discuss one of the most uh controversial fights and heavyweight boxing history, at least Muhammad Ali’s third fight September 28, 1976 at Yankee Stadium.
I watched it at closed circuit on closed circuit TV here in Toronto, at um at Maple, Leaf Gardens – and I you know Ali was my hero since I was six I’m 62 now and I I have to tell you and I love dolly in my mind.
He could do no Rob, but I think Norton won the fight when I watched that fight.
I remember looking at my father thinking nor would want to fight, I mean he dominated Ali and Ali said as much years later, but you know there’s such a wide Divergence of opinions when I’ve watched that fight literally thousands of times at that time.
In boxing in 1976, Ali was big money and just to fight Ali from 64 to 76.
Even if you lost and chances were, you were going to lose um.
It made your career.
You made a ton of money just from fighting Ali and unfortunately for Ali um.
He had his title and his prime years stolen from him by the federal government, the American government and the corrupt state commissions, primarily in New York state and the criminals.
The Mobsters that ran the the sanctioning bodies Forrest refused to go into uh the American Army in the 60s and and go to Vietnam.
The real reason they took his title and all that away was because uh Ali was a black man and he had changed.
He had dared to change his religion to Islam and change his name, and they weren’t going to allow that they wanted their United States to people around boxing who were overwhelmingly white and criminal.
Wanted and conservative wanted to uh have Ali, like all their other black Fighters, become appliant.
It wasn’t that the fighters wanted to do that.
It’S that you did that or you got physically hurt, so even in the 60s.
So Ali is the champ to take his title away, he’s off for four years and he comes back.
He has two fights against one against Oscar bonavina and the other Quarry uh Angelo Dundee wanted him to have three or four more fights, but he had no money.
He was destitutes and he had to pay off a lot of legal bills, so he takes on Frazier in the first fight.
Outlands him by a wide margin, but still loses gets knocked down in the 15th round gets two and a half million dollars for the fight.
So he continues on and he fights and he keeps fighting and and uh.
He comes up in 73 in San Diego.
He takes on a guy named Kenny Norton that no one in the country had heard Norton was a California fighter.
Who’D had I think, 16 fights under his belt, he’d lost one and he um wasn’t given much of a chance and Ali didn’t really train for it, because, sadly, looked at him on tape and looked at his record and thought this guy can’t be me, he’s relatively A novice and Angela Dundee didn’t want the fight, because Norton had sparred with Ali several years earlier, and Ali had trouble with him because of Norton’s odd boxing stance and his crab-like defense Norton had a herky-jerky motion and Ali had a very as all fighters against Norton, Except George Foreman had a very tough time: timing, Norton and Dundee Angela thought.
You know it’s just better to avoid him at all, but they fought Norton broke as John the second round Ali.
You know at that point had to change the way he was fighting.
The fight, but the real, almost as much, if not more than the broken jaw in their first fight, because we’re going to speak about the third fight today.
It’S the fact that the main reason why he had the great Eddie futch, you know one of the greatest trainers in the history of the sport.
So you know Eddie Foote just started out carrying Joe Lewis’s bag to the Brewster gym in Detroit in the early 30s and fudge said to know he said: listen, you have a two inch reach Advantage.
You have to use it.
You have to get off first, meaning you have to out jab Ali everything from Ali came off his Jab.
That’S that’s! What set the pace for Ally is his right hand came off as jab.
Also Ali threw a tremendously quick counter right hand, which is how he dropped, listen and so many other Fighters.
So he said if you could disrupt Ali’s Rhythm by taking away his jab, you can beat him and that’s what Norton did and so Ali’s fighting the fight and Ali admits.
He didn’t train well for the fight if at all, and he gets his job busted in the second round, and I remember asking him years later: did you know your job was broken and and I and he he said what do you think and I said well, You had to have known your child is broken.
I mean the pain, the fact that you couldn’t use it.
You know you can open or close your mouth you’re in serious pain and he said you’re not as dumb as you look and I said actually Muhammad.
I’M way dumber than I’m look as dumb, as you think I am by looking at me, I’m that many levels Dumber which he laughed at and so his jaw heals he fights Norton in a rematch and he beats him.
So a lot of people like George Foreman uh, think that Norton won all three fights.
A lot of people did against Ali and Ali won the second fight by Split Decision.
He lost the first one by split decision, but Norton didn’t complain after the second fight.
He said no, I think it was an honest decision.
I give Ali credit for coming back and and his corner and his management and, along with Norton, didn’t complain about the decision they they enjoyed, not enjoyed it.
But you know fighting Ali meant your life was changed.
Now you can Norton began appearing in movies.
He began modeling all that much more money Ali gave him a career.
He was making three four five grand a fight, and after Ali he was making hundreds of thousands of dollars a fight, and so him and Ali were always friends and their careers go on.
You know, Foreman beats Frazier and Foreman destroys Norman in two rounds.
Ali beats Foreman in a huge upset, and then he has the Thriller in Manila in 1975 against Joe Frazier, which I always thought well, I would never say to Muhammad was the perfect time for him to quit.
The problem was for Ali, is they stole four years? The government stole four years.
It was prime years from him so because of that, how do you tell him you should quit now? He spent the second part of his career, trying to get those years back and the first part of his career and his first Incarnation from from 61 to 67 his feet.
His foot speed and his his legs and his hand speed and his lateral Mobility were incredible.
You couldn’t catch him, it was so quick and when he came back, uh um Bud showberg the great writer who wrote The Harder They Fall and and um on the waterfront said that Ali had lost his death.
But it was a significant step that he lost, because with that extra step, he he was Untouchable.
He was on another planet.
He was among the gods, but now that he lost his step, he was still a great fighter.
He just wasn’t way above everyone else and then second go around Ali had to show people another trait, which was he was the toughest single heavyweight fighter ever to have lived, and unfortunately that ended up working against him physically, but he had no other choice.
He would show flashes, it was former Brilliance, but he just couldn’t do it anymore with his legs, and so we flagged snorting the first time he fights him the second time and loses the main thing about when he fought Norton.
First time he had Eddie fudge and Eddie fudge had the training camps.
He had people into specifically imitate Ali, he would be in the ring of Norton and he would say to the Spartan partner, throw the jab so he looks his hands here.
This is what you do to avoid it, and then you can bat it away like this and then come over with your right hand, or you could slip under it.
Fudge was in the ring the same way Angela would do with Muhammad and show him what to do, except, of course, of Muhammad.
You couldn’t tell him what to do.
You could suggest something or you’d compliment him on something, and then he would do it after and so in the second fight fudge: wasn’t there, you know, for whatever reason, Eddie futch was not in Norton’s Corner third fight September 28.
1976.
It was a fight that should not have happened, I believe, because Ali should have retired after the third Frazier fight.
That was the single, toughest fight I’ve ever seen in my life that went 15.
It almost went 15 rounds Frazier quit after the last round and he through into town because he thought Frazier would have died when I asked him years later at the hall of fame.
If he thought he made the right decision, he was dead serious.
He said I’ve seen, seven men die in the ring son, and I wasn’t about to see my eighth and I he said to Joe.
You have too much to live for.
You’Ve got children, you love grandchildren.
Soon, it’s not worth losing your life over a prize fight and most people don’t know.
Frasier entered the fight blind on one eye.
He fought his career blind Illinois and he had diabetes and high blood pressure.
So he got he put up the most incredible fight.
I’Ve ever seen, But at least he’ll prevail and Ali who’s always trying to regain his youth to gain the years that were stolen from him, which is you can’t do because there’s no such thing as a time machine.
You can’t go back in time to do it.
He kept fighting and thought why not fight Norton, a third time and Ali.
You know by the time he fights Norton the third time Ali born January 1742 was 34 years old.
I’M 62.
34 year old to me would be a kid, but in boxing terms and Ally, had you know 40 or something fights after he came back.
That’S you know he had a lot of wear and tear in his body.
Norton started out in.
He was born in Illinois, family moved to to California.
He joined the Marines became a marine Champion, an AAU champion, and he turned Pro because he was broke when he left the Marines.
He was in the Marines for five years.
He needed his money and he wasn’t making much money a couple thousand each fight and the thing about uh different one big difference between Morgan and Ali of course was the fact that Dorian didn’t have the amateur pedigree that Ali had Ali.
Had.
You know well over to almost 300 amateur fights Norman at like 24 amateur fights in total he was 22-2, but he was a big man.
He was physically Ali Grew From A light.
Heavy into a heavy Norton was physically a big guy.
He was known as the black Hercules, the Adonis, and he appeared in the mandingo movies.
When you see this new movie Creed coming out in the commercial and the show, Michael B, Jordan and the other actor and they’re cut, you know how muscular they look.
They looked flabby compared to how Ken Norton looked in real life.
Lauren was unbelievably built and Angelo called him the bull moose.
Now I want to say when I met Norton, I I thought this guy’s got to be six seven.
He can’t just be six three nicest kindest person.
He was just such a great person and and uh he loved Ali, and I said you weren’t angry after the third fight he said I was upset, but not at Ali.
I was upset with the judges, not that League.
He said Ali gave me a life.
You know I would have had to move back in with my son with my father until I fought Ali the first time and after that my money went up.
I was able to support my family, so he said I’ve always loved that League personally, and he knows that in fact, long after the careers were over, Norton was in a car crash.
That’S why he talked the way he did in his later years and he’d gone off.
The freeway Ali heard about it in New York chartered a plane and flew to San Diego and when Norton woke up from his coma Ali was holding his hand.
So wasn’t personal at all was business.
Now we come to this third fight in Yankee Stadium.
It was an interesting day September 26th.
It was a cold windy.
Blustery day the police were on strike, so they had to get higher private policemen and security.
A lot of people got in free, everyone got mugged just about her, had their pockets picked and um uh, one of the one of the reporters that said just take to the other reporters.
The younger reporters take what you need, because everything else you’re going to get pickpocketed, don’t take your wallet, don’t take anything else.
Take your press pass, take a piece of paper and a pen.
That’S it because your wallet, your watch, anything else will get stolen and he was right.
So this fight remains extremely controversial to this day and there are a lot of people like George Foreman, whom I adore said that you know if they fought 100 times normally would win 100 times.
Everyone thinks that Norton won this fight, and and most people do.
I did when I saw it originally, but I’ve watched it several thousand times since then.
Yes, I’m a boxing junkie and I’m not.
I still think Norton won, but there’s some big, very big ifs now in boxing Angela Dundee always said.
To me ifs, don’t count, you can’t say if this would have happened, then that would have happened.
You could only go by what did happen.
That’S the way history works.
You know, as he used to say, if the West had gone into Germany in the early 30s and got rid of Hitler.
There would be no second world war, but they didn’t do it so, with Norton and Ali the fight starts off and Ally wins the first four rounds, he’s dancing he’s dancing.
He his speed, never left him he’s outlining Norton he’s not hurting Norton, but he’s live in good shots he’s winning the rounds, wins the first four four round fifth round Norton, just storms out in Corner’s alley on the ropes and gives him a full body beating hits Him to the to the to the liver to the kidneys he’s bringing shots up to the head.
You know, Ally comes back.
Has it been around in the sixth really lays a beating on Ali in the seventh? So if you’re looking at this now after seven rounds right, you could say that it’s it’s, you could even say it’s.
It’S four rounds to three or five rounds to two for Ali.
That means there’s eight more rounds to go so if Ali’s won.
Five of the first seven rounds that means to win the fight.
He only needs to win three of the next eight rounds.
So it’s not it’s no longer.
You know a 15 round fight and look at it in a different way.
After five rounds, it was scored.
Four rounds Ali one round, Norton, that’s a 10 round fight Ali needs to win four of the next 10 Rounds and he could still come out ahead.
Oh the fight on Ali’s dancing, but Ali’s.
We don’t know how well Ali trained before the fight Harold Conrad, by the way, the movie, The Harder They Fall, the character Humphrey Bogart played.
It was based on Harold Conrad this boxing promo uh publicist very famous man.
He was a publicist for Bugsy Siegel and he he um.
He was promoting Ali and he couldn’t find Ali uh the night before the fight, because I wanted to do interviews and he got a key to Ali’s bedroom.
His um hotel room went in and there was Ali in bed.
He said with several girls, I don’t know if that’s true or not, but he just said you know I just can’t.
I can’t believe this you’re fighting Norton, who wants to take your head off and you’re doing this and apparently he said, I’m not worried about him, I’m in shape.
So I I don’t know if that happened or not.
That’S what I read um.
It may be true, it may not so Ali.
You know I was entering the ring.
He’S got Angelo Dundee there, but Norm doesn’t have any fudge and that’s a big problem because he’s getting the wrong advice from his Corner.
His corner is telling him what to do and what not to do so, you know being Guided by Eddie Fox you also guided um Joe Frazier.
You know makes a really big difference.
So Norton you know, is going up and he’s beating all these different people and that style of his that Archie Moore, crab-like defense and you can never see where Norton’s punches were coming from, because if it’s herky-jerky style it gave Ali Fitz it gave Ali problems Norm.
Could land on Ali and Ali couldn’t time him? In fact, Ali said and George battles said that the hardest guy they ever had a time had the most difficulty with was Frasier.
Now we missed a lot of punches and all three fights of Frazier, because Frazier is always bobbing and weaving, but he was usually going from side to side and that’s very hard to time, especially when it’s a smaller man.
Norton went side to side, but he went up and down.
He went on angles.
He was such a uh, a Herky jerky motion.
He was almost impossible at the time, even though he was a big man.
He was a big Target.
Ali just had a lot of problems with him, and so Ali had times where you know.
If he could get his jab going and get shots off, he could land punches and punches, but he couldn’t stand there and pot shot him as he would like to do.
At times, Ali loved doing that you couldn’t do if Norton he was just you know, don’t it was just too difficult to figure the hit not for Foreman, but against Ali he rose to the top and so they’re fighting four rounds.
Five rounds, um sixth rounds seven rounds and watching the fight now Jerry Eisenberg, the Hall of Fame writer, brilliant writer.
He was the one who said about the third Ali Frazier fight they’re, not fighting for the heavyweight title of the world, they’re fighting for the heavyweight title of each other, he’s watching the fight and he’s thinking.
This is a boring fight, and not only that, I I didn’t, I mean it was at times a boring fight, because Ali laid on the ropes he didn’t have the legs and I think after the third freitian fight he was done as a fighter, but who’s going To have the right, I certainly didn’t, and who did no one did have the right to tell the great Muhammad Ali.
You should call it a day, so they put all this money in front of him.
Plus all the people in boxing are saying: if you go, the sport dies, you got to stay so Norton knew coming into the fight that he was fighting more than just an aging alley.
He was fighting the legend of Ali.
He was fighting Ali’s accomplishments and Ali’s place not only in fistic history but in world history and Norton thought he was well ahead, so he had parts and rounds where he would really go after Ali, but he also had other parts where he took it easy.
You know and let Ali expend his energy, the rule of thumb back in 1976 was and for the Hundred Years previously and a little time after 76 was if you’re going to beat a world champion by a decision.
You have to dominate them every round and put them down a couple times, but you have to beat the hell out of them all every all three minutes of every round and lump his face up close his eyes.
You have to make it such a one-sided beating that the judges cannot take it away from you and that didn’t happen.
Norton-Dominated parts of the fight did he dominate every minute of every round.
No did he lump up Ali’s face? No it’ll give him the worst beating of his life.
No, he he dominated parts of the fight, but he certainly didn’t dominate entire fight.
Did he dominate enough of the fight to win the title? I thought he did, but that wasn’t the way it was ruled at the time so Norton’s doing his best he’s hitting Ali to the body he’s hitting on these overhand rights that Ali’s having trouble blocking you know, Norton had a longer reach, so normally throw these arcing Right hands and Ali would have his hand up, but the punch would come behind the glove hit him and on the side of the head here, which is very discombobulating.
Norton landed.
A lot of shots Ali proved that he had the best jaw in all of boxing history, because no one hit him like that.
Foreman hit him.
Some phenomenal shots in the flanks and in the chin and Ali took him and said.
Is that all you got so he’s talking to Norton the whole time he’s flurring in different parts of different rounds? So you know it looked like after the eighth round you know Norton’s winning it looked like Ali had the first four and then you could say: Norton won the next three to four rounds, so it it’s it’s pretty even Ally’s winning around here there Norton seems to Be winning more rounds during the whole fight, and you know Ali always got up to face certain opponents, but the opponents definitely got up to face him and Norton was one of those guys.
This meant everything to him.
You know this was this.
Was a personal competition? Competition excuse me between him and Ali.
He wanted to prove that there was no way.
You know this old guy can beat me it’s my turn.
It’S my chance.
I’M gon na reign as the heavyweight King and I’m going to take it from Ali and Ali had done all this talking pointing out Norton’s flaws and Norton’s mistakes.
All the psychological warfare Norton just said you know they asked him at the press conference uh.
Do you have any um? Would you like to come up to the Deus here and you know he’s sitting down today, it’s come up to the mic and he said: what’s going to be your main target in this fight? What’S your strategy, your goal and he walked over to Ali and he puts a a burlap bag on his head, which Ali let’s stay on for Comic effect and then took off and Norton just said.
Well, he talks a lot so my uh, my goal for this fight is going to be his head.
That’S my strategy.
It was right, you know that’s what he was trying to do and he whacked out in the head many times.
Norton was supremely confident.
He said his legs are gone, Frazier took anything left uh.
All he could do now is just stand there and take a woman so, and I intend to give it to him.
This is my time to shine.
I’M the younger man, I’m the better fighter, he’s done and I’m going to show the world and throughout the fight, I’m watching the fight at Maple, Leaf, Gardens in closed circuit and I’m going like this.
I’M going come on, my hobby get going get going and I would say my father: he lost that amount.
He lost that round.
My father say he can’t keep giving rounds away like this, and I – and I said I know, he’s – got to start putting rounds in the bank, but my father said you have to also understand that the audience is entirely Pro alley and he said that has to Affect the judges, the judges, of course, are supposed to be objective, right.
Lots and judging is supposed to be objective, but I’ll judge is a human they’re subjective and they bring their personal biases into each fight and they knew whether, where their bread was buttered, but still, I think you know, Arthur McKinney uh, Harold leiterman is magnificent judge and I believe Barney Smith was the other one.
He you know they all.
It was a close fight.
I mean it was a very close fight and they had a close fight so rounds where you think well, maybe Ali did enough to pull it out.
You’D find out later Ali did win that and then you had Norton, I think Norton took that round and you look at their scorecards and nothing did take them out.
But the mistake, the Fatal mistake that Norton made to the judges, but not in the eyes of the people watching other than the judges is he didn’t, have that good, a corner without a reflection.
So after the 13th round or 14th round his Corner said you’re winning the fight don’t take a chance, don’t get caught Ally could still punch.
You can’t see a guy who’s, six foot three to quarter 225 pounds in well-coordinated, can’t punch Ali.
You know hurt Martin several times in all their fights.
However, Norton gave away the 15th round, he wouldn’t engage, so all Ali had to do is show a minimal amount of offense and so going in after 14 rounds.
The fight on two cards – Arthur mccandy’s card and hero 11, was dead even seven rounds, a piece and on the other card, uh Barney Smith had a 7-6 alley with money so that car could have gone either way.
So 15th round decides to fight.
Now, when Natalie gets up Angelo Dundee said you need this round.
This round ties to fight.
You know you, you could tie it or win it with this round.
You cannot lose this round and keep your tight and Ali knew that that’s all they wanted to hear.
Didn’T need to be told anything else and it dominates around Norton’s running Ali is the aggressor and, of course, after the fight, nothing smiling and everyone’s sitting there myself.
So many people thought well Norton won, he he beat the great alley and the scores come back and Letterman all the pre.
The previous two fights have been split.
The solution, this one for Norton, second one for Ali and this fight was an anonymous decision.
So when you hear that I went uh, oh you know, I got a chill going down my spine, my stomach’s dirty.
Oh, no, not an unanimous decision.
They’Re not going to do this to Muhammad! Please don’t and it was.
It was uh judge, Harold Letterman scores to fight eight seven for Muhammad Ali referee, Arthur Tammy scores to fight eight seven and there’s that long pause Muhammad Ali.
So it’s over and then judge Barney Smith scores.
It uh eight rounds alley one even six, Norton the winner by unanimous decision, Muhammad Ali and Norton, is crying.
He just turns his head puts his head in his hand crying when the fight ended, because I was speaking to him and Angelo about this.
You know Norton turns to Ali he’s, put you know UF in this and UF, and that it’s just the adrenaline at the moment I kicked her and and they can’t take it away from me, I beat the hell out of you, I’m the Champion you’re, nothing now And Angela, you could clearly hear him to take, turns to him and says: f, f, you you know and when they announce it, Norton’s stunned his crime, it’s just Pride and Ali’s scene leaving the ring, and this is why you have to love Ali because he was Ali was extremely magnetic.
What happened is at the press conference.
He said I want to thank the judges uh.
They were very kind to me.
I thought Kenny fought the better fight.
I I clearly thought after the fight the penny won and years later, when he was asked about it 1524.
.
He said no Kenny won that fight without a day he won the third fight, and, and so it can give Norton the title.
But at least you can respect someone like Ali, you know Norton who loved them just said.
Well, you know that’s one of the reasons why I love him.
He was honest.
He admitted he lost the fight and Ally’s own eyes.
He lost a fight.
He was grateful for the decision, but his Norton said to me.
He said it’s not just The Fighter, the man I’m fighting, I mean if he goes out of boxing all the big money goes.
You know the five million eight million 10 million dollar fights that we’ve seen today.
This all started with Ali all the big money in basketball, baseball football.
It all started with Ali.
So without Ali Norton and every heavyweights fee, all boxers sleep will go back down again and so Ali was the reason for the big money he put asses in the seats and money is the name of the game.
In boxing you have to put Assets in the seats – and I already did that so Norton still had his career after that, but Ali basically didn’t have anything left.
He had the fights of sphinx lose the first one win the second one.
Then he loses to homes.
A fight that never should have happened and then the burger can finally retired snorting goes on to keep fighting and then he, you know he’s awarded the title: when Sphinx wouldn’t defend against him and and then he loses it in his first defense to the great Larry Holmes and then Norton goes on to fight Beyond you know way past his Prime in a very very old Market loses to to um uh, Jerry Cooney, and you know to other Fighters because he just didn’t have anything left.
But when I would speak to Norton people when they would speak to Norton later in his life before he passed away, they would look at him and Norton had a halting speech.
You know his voice was kind of hoarse.
We would ask him a question um.
If you ever think that moving to Los Angeles from San Diego because you’ll get a movie well, I thought about it, but not nothing.
To do with punches was driving on the freeway, as I said earlier, in San Diego after his career, and he fell off, the car went off and the head was in a coma and suffered me back.
He recovered quite a bit put a lot of energy into that and I used to hug him.
I used to love to see him.
I would seem like the Hall of Fame, but I just never got over how physically imposing Muhammad Ali was gigantic, but him and Norton were the same size, but Ali was always smiling and friendly and joking and Norton.
We always had a smile on his face.
But Norton he just not just sail the doorway, he blocked it and one time at the hall of fame we’re out of dinner one night and I was talking to him and I sport.
I spilled some wine on my shoes and it’s just drained emotion from his face and he looked at me, look at the shoes and he said Lou.
I certainly hope you have fifteen hundred dollars on here.
Otherwise, there are a lot of trouble in a world of pain, is soon to descend upon you, and I I turn into Jackie Gleason, I’m sorry and he laughed and he put his hand in the trophies I’m just kidding.
I got him from Payless.
They were like 30.
.
I mean I really because yeah it’s not real leather, okay, but he said he said I had you.
I said I had four strokes while you were talking to me, but a a great person uh.
It was interesting to see him and Ollie together, because I I saw a foreman and Frazier and Ally together and they and each other Frazier didn’t like Ali, even though they made peace within their lives.
Frasier still had a spot and it’s hard for the way out of here.
Uh Norton, as I said, always looked up to Ali the third fight.
I think the first fight between them uh was nerve-wracking because you could tell Ali didn’t know what to do after his.
They always wrote all he could do was he had to protect himself, but still try to win.
Second, fight Ali got into shape, really worked out, really ran a lot of miles, sparred a lot and won third fight everyone’s sitting there in Maple Leaf Gardens, and I think around the world and a Yankees Stadium thought.
How does Ali have anything left after that? Fright fight with Frasier, he said it was the closest thing to death.
You know, 120 degrees, it was completely dehydrated and why would you come back and fight after that? You’Ve got nothing to prove, but he wanted to fight Norton to get a second win to win.
The series and and that’s what happened, um the fight – didn’t, do that well financially because of the police strike and because of the police strike, a lot of people got into the city and so uh Bob Aaron took a bath on the fight.
Uh made some money back on the closed circuit and, as I said everywhere, not just to find something interesting, but the fans everywhere were Pro alley yeah.
So because of that, you know that that had to have affected the judgments, although even in spite of that, the judge’s scorecard still you know we’re extremely close on on two of the judges.
Scorecards Ali won the fight in the 15th round, meaning if nortona won the 15th round, he won, he would have won a split decision two to one.
You know and that’s how close he was, but he gave the round away.
He willingly gave the Roundup, because that’s what he was told to do by his Corner, whereas the smarter man angel, I’m being said, we’re behind.
You got to win this around just to stay, and that was the difference in the fight Ali knew it fought his heart out.
Uh knew how to rally at the end of a round, but he did pull other rounds out to during the fight and because of that winning the 15th round the bat of ice Norton got Natalie did win the 15th round Ali ends up retaining the world heavyweight Title and and still you know, went on it may have been better for him, maybe in terms of physicality, if you had loss, but that would have just burden to keep fighting and ask for what I can fight.
We’Ve been that close, so Ali wins the fight.
Still the World Heavyweight Champion should have retired, but didn’t that was a great night and great fight.
You can get it on on uh YouTube.
Jerry Eisenberg thought it was a boring fight but uh to me it was always exciting when Aloo fought because anytime he got hurt or hit or you look like you thought he may be losing.
It was a very scary thing for me and office fans.
All of his fans would sit there like this and when we start jumping alley, I believe like come on, pull it out.
You can do it and uh Ali proved to be.
You know incredible that night.
He knew when to turn it on new one to turn it off and according to the judges, they won the fight.
You got to give him credit uh, you have to rate him as one of the greatest heavily champions of all time.
I still think the greatest heavyweight champion of all kinds, Joe Lewis, but uh Ali’s right up there with him.
My name is Lou Eisen.
This has been another episode of ring talk.
We hope you enjoyed it join us next Sunday and go to my sub stack page Lou Eisen, uh, uh, dot, dot substack.
com, where you’ll find it’s called um Once Upon a Time the price range and you find wonderful pieces and articles and great Fighters and fights from Boxing’S glove, it’s about.
Thank you, enjoy the rest of your weekend.
See you next week, foreign
Transcribed
[ Music ] foreign good afternoon, I’m boxing historian and writer and author, and this is ring talk and today we’re going to discuss one of the most uh controversial fights and heavyweight boxing history, at least Muhammad Ali’s third fight September 28, 1976 at Yankee Stadium.
I watched it at closed circuit on closed circuit TV here in Toronto, at um at Maple, Leaf Gardens – and I you know Ali was my hero since I was six I’m 62 now and I I have to tell you and I love dolly in my mind.
He could do no Rob, but I think Norton won the fight when I watched that fight.
I remember looking at my father thinking nor would want to fight, I mean he dominated Ali and Ali said as much years later, but you know there’s such a wide Divergence of opinions when I’ve watched that fight literally thousands of times at that time.
In boxing in 1976, Ali was big money and just to fight Ali from 64 to 76.
Even if you lost and chances were, you were going to lose um.
It made your career.
You made a ton of money just from fighting Ali and unfortunately for Ali um.
He had his title and his prime years stolen from him by the federal government, the American government and the corrupt state commissions, primarily in New York state and the criminals.
The Mobsters that ran the the sanctioning bodies Forrest refused to go into uh the American Army in the 60s and and go to Vietnam.
The real reason they took his title and all that away was because uh Ali was a black man and he had changed.
He had dared to change his religion to Islam and change his name, and they weren’t going to allow that they wanted their United States to people around boxing who were overwhelmingly white and criminal.
Wanted and conservative wanted to uh have Ali, like all their other black Fighters, become appliant.
It wasn’t that the fighters wanted to do that.
It’S that you did that or you got physically hurt, so even in the 60s.
So Ali is the champ to take his title away, he’s off for four years and he comes back.
He has two fights against one against Oscar bonavina and the other Quarry uh Angelo Dundee wanted him to have three or four more fights, but he had no money.
He was destitutes and he had to pay off a lot of legal bills, so he takes on Frazier in the first fight.
Outlands him by a wide margin, but still loses gets knocked down in the 15th round gets two and a half million dollars for the fight.
So he continues on and he fights and he keeps fighting and and uh.
He comes up in 73 in San Diego.
He takes on a guy named Kenny Norton that no one in the country had heard Norton was a California fighter.
Who’D had I think, 16 fights under his belt, he’d lost one and he um wasn’t given much of a chance and Ali didn’t really train for it, because, sadly, looked at him on tape and looked at his record and thought this guy can’t be me, he’s relatively A novice and Angela Dundee didn’t want the fight, because Norton had sparred with Ali several years earlier, and Ali had trouble with him because of Norton’s odd boxing stance and his crab-like defense Norton had a herky-jerky motion and Ali had a very as all fighters against Norton, Except George Foreman had a very tough time: timing, Norton and Dundee Angela thought.
You know it’s just better to avoid him at all, but they fought Norton broke as John the second round Ali.
You know at that point had to change the way he was fighting.
The fight, but the real, almost as much, if not more than the broken jaw in their first fight, because we’re going to speak about the third fight today.
It’S the fact that the main reason why he had the great Eddie futch, you know one of the greatest trainers in the history of the sport.
So you know Eddie Foote just started out carrying Joe Lewis’s bag to the Brewster gym in Detroit in the early 30s and fudge said to know he said: listen, you have a two inch reach Advantage.
You have to use it.
You have to get off first, meaning you have to out jab Ali everything from Ali came off his Jab.
That’S that’s! What set the pace for Ally is his right hand came off as jab.
Also Ali threw a tremendously quick counter right hand, which is how he dropped, listen and so many other Fighters.
So he said if you could disrupt Ali’s Rhythm by taking away his jab, you can beat him and that’s what Norton did and so Ali’s fighting the fight and Ali admits.
He didn’t train well for the fight if at all, and he gets his job busted in the second round, and I remember asking him years later: did you know your job was broken and and I and he he said what do you think and I said well, You had to have known your child is broken.
I mean the pain, the fact that you couldn’t use it.
You know you can open or close your mouth you’re in serious pain and he said you’re not as dumb as you look and I said actually Muhammad.
I’M way dumber than I’m look as dumb, as you think I am by looking at me, I’m that many levels Dumber which he laughed at and so his jaw heals he fights Norton in a rematch and he beats him.
So a lot of people like George Foreman uh, think that Norton won all three fights.
A lot of people did against Ali and Ali won the second fight by Split Decision.
He lost the first one by split decision, but Norton didn’t complain after the second fight.
He said no, I think it was an honest decision.
I give Ali credit for coming back and and his corner and his management and, along with Norton, didn’t complain about the decision they they enjoyed, not enjoyed it.
But you know fighting Ali meant your life was changed.
Now you can Norton began appearing in movies.
He began modeling all that much more money Ali gave him a career.
He was making three four five grand a fight, and after Ali he was making hundreds of thousands of dollars a fight, and so him and Ali were always friends and their careers go on.
You know, Foreman beats Frazier and Foreman destroys Norman in two rounds.
Ali beats Foreman in a huge upset, and then he has the Thriller in Manila in 1975 against Joe Frazier, which I always thought well, I would never say to Muhammad was the perfect time for him to quit.
The problem was for Ali, is they stole four years? The government stole four years.
It was prime years from him so because of that, how do you tell him you should quit now? He spent the second part of his career, trying to get those years back and the first part of his career and his first Incarnation from from 61 to 67 his feet.
His foot speed and his his legs and his hand speed and his lateral Mobility were incredible.
You couldn’t catch him, it was so quick and when he came back, uh um Bud showberg the great writer who wrote The Harder They Fall and and um on the waterfront said that Ali had lost his death.
But it was a significant step that he lost, because with that extra step, he he was Untouchable.
He was on another planet.
He was among the gods, but now that he lost his step, he was still a great fighter.
He just wasn’t way above everyone else and then second go around Ali had to show people another trait, which was he was the toughest single heavyweight fighter ever to have lived, and unfortunately that ended up working against him physically, but he had no other choice.
He would show flashes, it was former Brilliance, but he just couldn’t do it anymore with his legs, and so we flagged snorting the first time he fights him the second time and loses the main thing about when he fought Norton.
First time he had Eddie fudge and Eddie fudge had the training camps.
He had people into specifically imitate Ali, he would be in the ring of Norton and he would say to the Spartan partner, throw the jab so he looks his hands here.
This is what you do to avoid it, and then you can bat it away like this and then come over with your right hand, or you could slip under it.
Fudge was in the ring the same way Angela would do with Muhammad and show him what to do, except, of course, of Muhammad.
You couldn’t tell him what to do.
You could suggest something or you’d compliment him on something, and then he would do it after and so in the second fight fudge: wasn’t there, you know, for whatever reason, Eddie futch was not in Norton’s Corner third fight September 28.
1976.
It was a fight that should not have happened, I believe, because Ali should have retired after the third Frazier fight.
That was the single, toughest fight I’ve ever seen in my life that went 15.
It almost went 15 rounds Frazier quit after the last round and he through into town because he thought Frazier would have died when I asked him years later at the hall of fame.
If he thought he made the right decision, he was dead serious.
He said I’ve seen, seven men die in the ring son, and I wasn’t about to see my eighth and I he said to Joe.
You have too much to live for.
You’Ve got children, you love grandchildren.
Soon, it’s not worth losing your life over a prize fight and most people don’t know.
Frasier entered the fight blind on one eye.
He fought his career blind Illinois and he had diabetes and high blood pressure.
So he got he put up the most incredible fight.
I’Ve ever seen, But at least he’ll prevail and Ali who’s always trying to regain his youth to gain the years that were stolen from him, which is you can’t do because there’s no such thing as a time machine.
You can’t go back in time to do it.
He kept fighting and thought why not fight Norton, a third time and Ali.
You know by the time he fights Norton the third time Ali born January 1742 was 34 years old.
I’M 62.
34 year old to me would be a kid, but in boxing terms and Ally, had you know 40 or something fights after he came back.
That’S you know he had a lot of wear and tear in his body.
Norton started out in.
He was born in Illinois, family moved to to California.
He joined the Marines became a marine Champion, an AAU champion, and he turned Pro because he was broke when he left the Marines.
He was in the Marines for five years.
He needed his money and he wasn’t making much money a couple thousand each fight and the thing about uh different one big difference between Morgan and Ali of course was the fact that Dorian didn’t have the amateur pedigree that Ali had Ali.
Had.
You know well over to almost 300 amateur fights Norman at like 24 amateur fights in total he was 22-2, but he was a big man.
He was physically Ali Grew From A light.
Heavy into a heavy Norton was physically a big guy.
He was known as the black Hercules, the Adonis, and he appeared in the mandingo movies.
When you see this new movie Creed coming out in the commercial and the show, Michael B, Jordan and the other actor and they’re cut, you know how muscular they look.
They looked flabby compared to how Ken Norton looked in real life.
Lauren was unbelievably built and Angelo called him the bull moose.
Now I want to say when I met Norton, I I thought this guy’s got to be six seven.
He can’t just be six three nicest kindest person.
He was just such a great person and and uh he loved Ali, and I said you weren’t angry after the third fight he said I was upset, but not at Ali.
I was upset with the judges, not that League.
He said Ali gave me a life.
You know I would have had to move back in with my son with my father until I fought Ali the first time and after that my money went up.
I was able to support my family, so he said I’ve always loved that League personally, and he knows that in fact, long after the careers were over, Norton was in a car crash.
That’S why he talked the way he did in his later years and he’d gone off.
The freeway Ali heard about it in New York chartered a plane and flew to San Diego and when Norton woke up from his coma Ali was holding his hand.
So wasn’t personal at all was business.
Now we come to this third fight in Yankee Stadium.
It was an interesting day September 26th.
It was a cold windy.
Blustery day the police were on strike, so they had to get higher private policemen and security.
A lot of people got in free, everyone got mugged just about her, had their pockets picked and um uh, one of the one of the reporters that said just take to the other reporters.
The younger reporters take what you need, because everything else you’re going to get pickpocketed, don’t take your wallet, don’t take anything else.
Take your press pass, take a piece of paper and a pen.
That’S it because your wallet, your watch, anything else will get stolen and he was right.
So this fight remains extremely controversial to this day and there are a lot of people like George Foreman, whom I adore said that you know if they fought 100 times normally would win 100 times.
Everyone thinks that Norton won this fight, and and most people do.
I did when I saw it originally, but I’ve watched it several thousand times since then.
Yes, I’m a boxing junkie and I’m not.
I still think Norton won, but there’s some big, very big ifs now in boxing Angela Dundee always said.
To me ifs, don’t count, you can’t say if this would have happened, then that would have happened.
You could only go by what did happen.
That’S the way history works.
You know, as he used to say, if the West had gone into Germany in the early 30s and got rid of Hitler.
There would be no second world war, but they didn’t do it so, with Norton and Ali the fight starts off and Ally wins the first four rounds, he’s dancing he’s dancing.
He his speed, never left him he’s outlining Norton he’s not hurting Norton, but he’s live in good shots he’s winning the rounds, wins the first four four round fifth round Norton, just storms out in Corner’s alley on the ropes and gives him a full body beating hits Him to the to the to the liver to the kidneys he’s bringing shots up to the head.
You know, Ally comes back.
Has it been around in the sixth really lays a beating on Ali in the seventh? So if you’re looking at this now after seven rounds right, you could say that it’s it’s, you could even say it’s.
It’S four rounds to three or five rounds to two for Ali.
That means there’s eight more rounds to go so if Ali’s won.
Five of the first seven rounds that means to win the fight.
He only needs to win three of the next eight rounds.
So it’s not it’s no longer.
You know a 15 round fight and look at it in a different way.
After five rounds, it was scored.
Four rounds Ali one round, Norton, that’s a 10 round fight Ali needs to win four of the next 10 Rounds and he could still come out ahead.
Oh the fight on Ali’s dancing, but Ali’s.
We don’t know how well Ali trained before the fight Harold Conrad, by the way, the movie, The Harder They Fall, the character Humphrey Bogart played.
It was based on Harold Conrad this boxing promo uh publicist very famous man.
He was a publicist for Bugsy Siegel and he he um.
He was promoting Ali and he couldn’t find Ali uh the night before the fight, because I wanted to do interviews and he got a key to Ali’s bedroom.
His um hotel room went in and there was Ali in bed.
He said with several girls, I don’t know if that’s true or not, but he just said you know I just can’t.
I can’t believe this you’re fighting Norton, who wants to take your head off and you’re doing this and apparently he said, I’m not worried about him, I’m in shape.
So I I don’t know if that happened or not.
That’S what I read um.
It may be true, it may not so Ali.
You know I was entering the ring.
He’S got Angelo Dundee there, but Norm doesn’t have any fudge and that’s a big problem because he’s getting the wrong advice from his Corner.
His corner is telling him what to do and what not to do so, you know being Guided by Eddie Fox you also guided um Joe Frazier.
You know makes a really big difference.
So Norton you know, is going up and he’s beating all these different people and that style of his that Archie Moore, crab-like defense and you can never see where Norton’s punches were coming from, because if it’s herky-jerky style it gave Ali Fitz it gave Ali problems Norm.
Could land on Ali and Ali couldn’t time him? In fact, Ali said and George battles said that the hardest guy they ever had a time had the most difficulty with was Frasier.
Now we missed a lot of punches and all three fights of Frazier, because Frazier is always bobbing and weaving, but he was usually going from side to side and that’s very hard to time, especially when it’s a smaller man.
Norton went side to side, but he went up and down.
He went on angles.
He was such a uh, a Herky jerky motion.
He was almost impossible at the time, even though he was a big man.
He was a big Target.
Ali just had a lot of problems with him, and so Ali had times where you know.
If he could get his jab going and get shots off, he could land punches and punches, but he couldn’t stand there and pot shot him as he would like to do.
At times, Ali loved doing that you couldn’t do if Norton he was just you know, don’t it was just too difficult to figure the hit not for Foreman, but against Ali he rose to the top and so they’re fighting four rounds.
Five rounds, um sixth rounds seven rounds and watching the fight now Jerry Eisenberg, the Hall of Fame writer, brilliant writer.
He was the one who said about the third Ali Frazier fight they’re, not fighting for the heavyweight title of the world, they’re fighting for the heavyweight title of each other, he’s watching the fight and he’s thinking.
This is a boring fight, and not only that, I I didn’t, I mean it was at times a boring fight, because Ali laid on the ropes he didn’t have the legs and I think after the third freitian fight he was done as a fighter, but who’s going To have the right, I certainly didn’t, and who did no one did have the right to tell the great Muhammad Ali.
You should call it a day, so they put all this money in front of him.
Plus all the people in boxing are saying: if you go, the sport dies, you got to stay so Norton knew coming into the fight that he was fighting more than just an aging alley.
He was fighting the legend of Ali.
He was fighting Ali’s accomplishments and Ali’s place not only in fistic history but in world history and Norton thought he was well ahead, so he had parts and rounds where he would really go after Ali, but he also had other parts where he took it easy.
You know and let Ali expend his energy, the rule of thumb back in 1976 was and for the Hundred Years previously and a little time after 76 was if you’re going to beat a world champion by a decision.
You have to dominate them every round and put them down a couple times, but you have to beat the hell out of them all every all three minutes of every round and lump his face up close his eyes.
You have to make it such a one-sided beating that the judges cannot take it away from you and that didn’t happen.
Norton-Dominated parts of the fight did he dominate every minute of every round.
No did he lump up Ali’s face? No it’ll give him the worst beating of his life.
No, he he dominated parts of the fight, but he certainly didn’t dominate entire fight.
Did he dominate enough of the fight to win the title? I thought he did, but that wasn’t the way it was ruled at the time so Norton’s doing his best he’s hitting Ali to the body he’s hitting on these overhand rights that Ali’s having trouble blocking you know, Norton had a longer reach, so normally throw these arcing Right hands and Ali would have his hand up, but the punch would come behind the glove hit him and on the side of the head here, which is very discombobulating.
Norton landed.
A lot of shots Ali proved that he had the best jaw in all of boxing history, because no one hit him like that.
Foreman hit him.
Some phenomenal shots in the flanks and in the chin and Ali took him and said.
Is that all you got so he’s talking to Norton the whole time he’s flurring in different parts of different rounds? So you know it looked like after the eighth round you know Norton’s winning it looked like Ali had the first four and then you could say: Norton won the next three to four rounds, so it it’s it’s pretty even Ally’s winning around here there Norton seems to Be winning more rounds during the whole fight, and you know Ali always got up to face certain opponents, but the opponents definitely got up to face him and Norton was one of those guys.
This meant everything to him.
You know this was this.
Was a personal competition? Competition excuse me between him and Ali.
He wanted to prove that there was no way.
You know this old guy can beat me it’s my turn.
It’S my chance.
I’M gon na reign as the heavyweight King and I’m going to take it from Ali and Ali had done all this talking pointing out Norton’s flaws and Norton’s mistakes.
All the psychological warfare Norton just said you know they asked him at the press conference uh.
Do you have any um? Would you like to come up to the Deus here and you know he’s sitting down today, it’s come up to the mic and he said: what’s going to be your main target in this fight? What’S your strategy, your goal and he walked over to Ali and he puts a a burlap bag on his head, which Ali let’s stay on for Comic effect and then took off and Norton just said.
Well, he talks a lot so my uh, my goal for this fight is going to be his head.
That’S my strategy.
It was right, you know that’s what he was trying to do and he whacked out in the head many times.
Norton was supremely confident.
He said his legs are gone, Frazier took anything left uh.
All he could do now is just stand there and take a woman so, and I intend to give it to him.
This is my time to shine.
I’M the younger man, I’m the better fighter, he’s done and I’m going to show the world and throughout the fight, I’m watching the fight at Maple, Leaf, Gardens in closed circuit and I’m going like this.
I’M going come on, my hobby get going get going and I would say my father: he lost that amount.
He lost that round.
My father say he can’t keep giving rounds away like this, and I – and I said I know, he’s – got to start putting rounds in the bank, but my father said you have to also understand that the audience is entirely Pro alley and he said that has to Affect the judges, the judges, of course, are supposed to be objective, right.
Lots and judging is supposed to be objective, but I’ll judge is a human they’re subjective and they bring their personal biases into each fight and they knew whether, where their bread was buttered, but still, I think you know, Arthur McKinney uh, Harold leiterman is magnificent judge and I believe Barney Smith was the other one.
He you know they all.
It was a close fight.
I mean it was a very close fight and they had a close fight so rounds where you think well, maybe Ali did enough to pull it out.
You’D find out later Ali did win that and then you had Norton, I think Norton took that round and you look at their scorecards and nothing did take them out.
But the mistake, the Fatal mistake that Norton made to the judges, but not in the eyes of the people watching other than the judges is he didn’t, have that good, a corner without a reflection.
So after the 13th round or 14th round his Corner said you’re winning the fight don’t take a chance, don’t get caught Ally could still punch.
You can’t see a guy who’s, six foot three to quarter 225 pounds in well-coordinated, can’t punch Ali.
You know hurt Martin several times in all their fights.
However, Norton gave away the 15th round, he wouldn’t engage, so all Ali had to do is show a minimal amount of offense and so going in after 14 rounds.
The fight on two cards – Arthur mccandy’s card and hero 11, was dead even seven rounds, a piece and on the other card, uh Barney Smith had a 7-6 alley with money so that car could have gone either way.
So 15th round decides to fight.
Now, when Natalie gets up Angelo Dundee said you need this round.
This round ties to fight.
You know you, you could tie it or win it with this round.
You cannot lose this round and keep your tight and Ali knew that that’s all they wanted to hear.
Didn’T need to be told anything else and it dominates around Norton’s running Ali is the aggressor and, of course, after the fight, nothing smiling and everyone’s sitting there myself.
So many people thought well Norton won, he he beat the great alley and the scores come back and Letterman all the pre.
The previous two fights have been split.
The solution, this one for Norton, second one for Ali and this fight was an anonymous decision.
So when you hear that I went uh, oh you know, I got a chill going down my spine, my stomach’s dirty.
Oh, no, not an unanimous decision.
They’Re not going to do this to Muhammad! Please don’t and it was.
It was uh judge, Harold Letterman scores to fight eight seven for Muhammad Ali referee, Arthur Tammy scores to fight eight seven and there’s that long pause Muhammad Ali.
So it’s over and then judge Barney Smith scores.
It uh eight rounds alley one even six, Norton the winner by unanimous decision, Muhammad Ali and Norton, is crying.
He just turns his head puts his head in his hand crying when the fight ended, because I was speaking to him and Angelo about this.
You know Norton turns to Ali he’s, put you know UF in this and UF, and that it’s just the adrenaline at the moment I kicked her and and they can’t take it away from me, I beat the hell out of you, I’m the Champion you’re, nothing now And Angela, you could clearly hear him to take, turns to him and says: f, f, you you know and when they announce it, Norton’s stunned his crime, it’s just Pride and Ali’s scene leaving the ring, and this is why you have to love Ali because he was Ali was extremely magnetic.
What happened is at the press conference.
He said I want to thank the judges uh.
They were very kind to me.
I thought Kenny fought the better fight.
I I clearly thought after the fight the penny won and years later, when he was asked about it 1524.
.
He said no Kenny won that fight without a day he won the third fight, and, and so it can give Norton the title.
But at least you can respect someone like Ali, you know Norton who loved them just said.
Well, you know that’s one of the reasons why I love him.
He was honest.
He admitted he lost the fight and Ally’s own eyes.
He lost a fight.
He was grateful for the decision, but his Norton said to me.
He said it’s not just The Fighter, the man I’m fighting, I mean if he goes out of boxing all the big money goes.
You know the five million eight million 10 million dollar fights that we’ve seen today.
This all started with Ali all the big money in basketball, baseball football.
It all started with Ali.
So without Ali Norton and every heavyweights fee, all boxers sleep will go back down again and so Ali was the reason for the big money he put asses in the seats and money is the name of the game.
In boxing you have to put Assets in the seats – and I already did that so Norton still had his career after that, but Ali basically didn’t have anything left.
He had the fights of sphinx lose the first one win the second one.
Then he loses to homes.
A fight that never should have happened and then the burger can finally retired snorting goes on to keep fighting and then he, you know he’s awarded the title: when Sphinx wouldn’t defend against him and and then he loses it in his first defense to the great Larry Holmes and then Norton goes on to fight Beyond you know way past his Prime in a very very old Market loses to to um uh, Jerry Cooney, and you know to other Fighters because he just didn’t have anything left.
But when I would speak to Norton people when they would speak to Norton later in his life before he passed away, they would look at him and Norton had a halting speech.
You know his voice was kind of hoarse.
We would ask him a question um.
If you ever think that moving to Los Angeles from San Diego because you’ll get a movie well, I thought about it, but not nothing.
To do with punches was driving on the freeway, as I said earlier, in San Diego after his career, and he fell off, the car went off and the head was in a coma and suffered me back.
He recovered quite a bit put a lot of energy into that and I used to hug him.
I used to love to see him.
I would seem like the Hall of Fame, but I just never got over how physically imposing Muhammad Ali was gigantic, but him and Norton were the same size, but Ali was always smiling and friendly and joking and Norton.
We always had a smile on his face.
But Norton he just not just sail the doorway, he blocked it and one time at the hall of fame we’re out of dinner one night and I was talking to him and I sport.
I spilled some wine on my shoes and it’s just drained emotion from his face and he looked at me, look at the shoes and he said Lou.
I certainly hope you have fifteen hundred dollars on here.
Otherwise, there are a lot of trouble in a world of pain, is soon to descend upon you, and I I turn into Jackie Gleason, I’m sorry and he laughed and he put his hand in the trophies I’m just kidding.
I got him from Payless.
They were like 30.
.
I mean I really because yeah it’s not real leather, okay, but he said he said I had you.
I said I had four strokes while you were talking to me, but a a great person uh.
It was interesting to see him and Ollie together, because I I saw a foreman and Frazier and Ally together and they and each other Frazier didn’t like Ali, even though they made peace within their lives.
Frasier still had a spot and it’s hard for the way out of here.
Uh Norton, as I said, always looked up to Ali the third fight.
I think the first fight between them uh was nerve-wracking because you could tell Ali didn’t know what to do after his.
They always wrote all he could do was he had to protect himself, but still try to win.
Second, fight Ali got into shape, really worked out, really ran a lot of miles, sparred a lot and won third fight everyone’s sitting there in Maple Leaf Gardens, and I think around the world and a Yankees Stadium thought.
How does Ali have anything left after that? Fright fight with Frasier, he said it was the closest thing to death.
You know, 120 degrees, it was completely dehydrated and why would you come back and fight after that? You’Ve got nothing to prove, but he wanted to fight Norton to get a second win to win.
The series and and that’s what happened, um the fight – didn’t, do that well financially because of the police strike and because of the police strike, a lot of people got into the city and so uh Bob Aaron took a bath on the fight.
Uh made some money back on the closed circuit and, as I said everywhere, not just to find something interesting, but the fans everywhere were Pro alley yeah.
So because of that, you know that that had to have affected the judgments, although even in spite of that, the judge’s scorecard still you know we’re extremely close on on two of the judges.
Scorecards Ali won the fight in the 15th round, meaning if nortona won the 15th round, he won, he would have won a split decision two to one.
You know and that’s how close he was, but he gave the round away.
He willingly gave the Roundup, because that’s what he was told to do by his Corner, whereas the smarter man angel, I’m being said, we’re behind.
You got to win this around just to stay, and that was the difference in the fight Ali knew it fought his heart out.
Uh knew how to rally at the end of a round, but he did pull other rounds out to during the fight and because of that winning the 15th round the bat of ice Norton got Natalie did win the 15th round Ali ends up retaining the world heavyweight Title and and still you know, went on it may have been better for him, maybe in terms of physicality, if you had loss, but that would have just burden to keep fighting and ask for what I can fight.
We’Ve been that close, so Ali wins the fight.
Still the World Heavyweight Champion should have retired, but didn’t that was a great night and great fight.
You can get it on on uh YouTube.
Jerry Eisenberg thought it was a boring fight but uh to me it was always exciting when Aloo fought because anytime he got hurt or hit or you look like you thought he may be losing.
It was a very scary thing for me and office fans.
All of his fans would sit there like this and when we start jumping alley, I believe like come on, pull it out.
You can do it and uh Ali proved to be.
You know incredible that night.
He knew when to turn it on new one to turn it off and according to the judges, they won the fight.
You got to give him credit uh, you have to rate him as one of the greatest heavily champions of all time.
I still think the greatest heavyweight champion of all kinds, Joe Lewis, but uh Ali’s right up there with him.
My name is Lou Eisen.
This has been another episode of ring talk.
We hope you enjoyed it join us next Sunday and go to my sub stack page Lou Eisen, uh, uh, dot, dot substack.
com, where you’ll find it’s called um Once Upon a Time the price range and you find wonderful pieces and articles and great Fighters and fights from Boxing’S glove, it’s about.
Thank you, enjoy the rest of your weekend.
See you next week, foreign
Transcribed
[ Music ] foreign good afternoon, I’m boxing historian and writer and author, and this is ring talk and today we’re going to discuss one of the most uh controversial fights and heavyweight boxing history, at least Muhammad Ali’s third fight September 28, 1976 at Yankee Stadium.
I watched it at closed circuit on closed circuit TV here in Toronto, at um at Maple, Leaf Gardens – and I you know Ali was my hero since I was six I’m 62 now and I I have to tell you and I love dolly in my mind.
He could do no Rob, but I think Norton won the fight when I watched that fight.
I remember looking at my father thinking nor would want to fight, I mean he dominated Ali and Ali said as much years later, but you know there’s such a wide Divergence of opinions when I’ve watched that fight literally thousands of times at that time.
In boxing in 1976, Ali was big money and just to fight Ali from 64 to 76.
Even if you lost and chances were, you were going to lose um.
It made your career.
You made a ton of money just from fighting Ali and unfortunately for Ali um.
He had his title and his prime years stolen from him by the federal government, the American government and the corrupt state commissions, primarily in New York state and the criminals.
The Mobsters that ran the the sanctioning bodies Forrest refused to go into uh the American Army in the 60s and and go to Vietnam.
The real reason they took his title and all that away was because uh Ali was a black man and he had changed.
He had dared to change his religion to Islam and change his name, and they weren’t going to allow that they wanted their United States to people around boxing who were overwhelmingly white and criminal.
Wanted and conservative wanted to uh have Ali, like all their other black Fighters, become appliant.
It wasn’t that the fighters wanted to do that.
It’S that you did that or you got physically hurt, so even in the 60s.
So Ali is the champ to take his title away, he’s off for four years and he comes back.
He has two fights against one against Oscar bonavina and the other Quarry uh Angelo Dundee wanted him to have three or four more fights, but he had no money.
He was destitutes and he had to pay off a lot of legal bills, so he takes on Frazier in the first fight.
Outlands him by a wide margin, but still loses gets knocked down in the 15th round gets two and a half million dollars for the fight.
So he continues on and he fights and he keeps fighting and and uh.
He comes up in 73 in San Diego.
He takes on a guy named Kenny Norton that no one in the country had heard Norton was a California fighter.
Who’D had I think, 16 fights under his belt, he’d lost one and he um wasn’t given much of a chance and Ali didn’t really train for it, because, sadly, looked at him on tape and looked at his record and thought this guy can’t be me, he’s relatively A novice and Angela Dundee didn’t want the fight, because Norton had sparred with Ali several years earlier, and Ali had trouble with him because of Norton’s odd boxing stance and his crab-like defense Norton had a herky-jerky motion and Ali had a very as all fighters against Norton, Except George Foreman had a very tough time: timing, Norton and Dundee Angela thought.
You know it’s just better to avoid him at all, but they fought Norton broke as John the second round Ali.
You know at that point had to change the way he was fighting.
The fight, but the real, almost as much, if not more than the broken jaw in their first fight, because we’re going to speak about the third fight today.
It’S the fact that the main reason why he had the great Eddie futch, you know one of the greatest trainers in the history of the sport.
So you know Eddie Foote just started out carrying Joe Lewis’s bag to the Brewster gym in Detroit in the early 30s and fudge said to know he said: listen, you have a two inch reach Advantage.
You have to use it.
You have to get off first, meaning you have to out jab Ali everything from Ali came off his Jab.
That’S that’s! What set the pace for Ally is his right hand came off as jab.
Also Ali threw a tremendously quick counter right hand, which is how he dropped, listen and so many other Fighters.
So he said if you could disrupt Ali’s Rhythm by taking away his jab, you can beat him and that’s what Norton did and so Ali’s fighting the fight and Ali admits.
He didn’t train well for the fight if at all, and he gets his job busted in the second round, and I remember asking him years later: did you know your job was broken and and I and he he said what do you think and I said well, You had to have known your child is broken.
I mean the pain, the fact that you couldn’t use it.
You know you can open or close your mouth you’re in serious pain and he said you’re not as dumb as you look and I said actually Muhammad.
I’M way dumber than I’m look as dumb, as you think I am by looking at me, I’m that many levels Dumber which he laughed at and so his jaw heals he fights Norton in a rematch and he beats him.
So a lot of people like George Foreman uh, think that Norton won all three fights.
A lot of people did against Ali and Ali won the second fight by Split Decision.
He lost the first one by split decision, but Norton didn’t complain after the second fight.
He said no, I think it was an honest decision.
I give Ali credit for coming back and and his corner and his management and, along with Norton, didn’t complain about the decision they they enjoyed, not enjoyed it.
But you know fighting Ali meant your life was changed.
Now you can Norton began appearing in movies.
He began modeling all that much more money Ali gave him a career.
He was making three four five grand a fight, and after Ali he was making hundreds of thousands of dollars a fight, and so him and Ali were always friends and their careers go on.
You know, Foreman beats Frazier and Foreman destroys Norman in two rounds.
Ali beats Foreman in a huge upset, and then he has the Thriller in Manila in 1975 against Joe Frazier, which I always thought well, I would never say to Muhammad was the perfect time for him to quit.
The problem was for Ali, is they stole four years? The government stole four years.
It was prime years from him so because of that, how do you tell him you should quit now? He spent the second part of his career, trying to get those years back and the first part of his career and his first Incarnation from from 61 to 67 his feet.
His foot speed and his his legs and his hand speed and his lateral Mobility were incredible.
You couldn’t catch him, it was so quick and when he came back, uh um Bud showberg the great writer who wrote The Harder They Fall and and um on the waterfront said that Ali had lost his death.
But it was a significant step that he lost, because with that extra step, he he was Untouchable.
He was on another planet.
He was among the gods, but now that he lost his step, he was still a great fighter.
He just wasn’t way above everyone else and then second go around Ali had to show people another trait, which was he was the toughest single heavyweight fighter ever to have lived, and unfortunately that ended up working against him physically, but he had no other choice.
He would show flashes, it was former Brilliance, but he just couldn’t do it anymore with his legs, and so we flagged snorting the first time he fights him the second time and loses the main thing about when he fought Norton.
First time he had Eddie fudge and Eddie fudge had the training camps.
He had people into specifically imitate Ali, he would be in the ring of Norton and he would say to the Spartan partner, throw the jab so he looks his hands here.
This is what you do to avoid it, and then you can bat it away like this and then come over with your right hand, or you could slip under it.
Fudge was in the ring the same way Angela would do with Muhammad and show him what to do, except, of course, of Muhammad.
You couldn’t tell him what to do.
You could suggest something or you’d compliment him on something, and then he would do it after and so in the second fight fudge: wasn’t there, you know, for whatever reason, Eddie futch was not in Norton’s Corner third fight September 28.
1976.
It was a fight that should not have happened, I believe, because Ali should have retired after the third Frazier fight.
That was the single, toughest fight I’ve ever seen in my life that went 15.
It almost went 15 rounds Frazier quit after the last round and he through into town because he thought Frazier would have died when I asked him years later at the hall of fame.
If he thought he made the right decision, he was dead serious.
He said I’ve seen, seven men die in the ring son, and I wasn’t about to see my eighth and I he said to Joe.
You have too much to live for.
You’Ve got children, you love grandchildren.
Soon, it’s not worth losing your life over a prize fight and most people don’t know.
Frasier entered the fight blind on one eye.
He fought his career blind Illinois and he had diabetes and high blood pressure.
So he got he put up the most incredible fight.
I’Ve ever seen, But at least he’ll prevail and Ali who’s always trying to regain his youth to gain the years that were stolen from him, which is you can’t do because there’s no such thing as a time machine.
You can’t go back in time to do it.
He kept fighting and thought why not fight Norton, a third time and Ali.
You know by the time he fights Norton the third time Ali born January 1742 was 34 years old.
I’M 62.
34 year old to me would be a kid, but in boxing terms and Ally, had you know 40 or something fights after he came back.
That’S you know he had a lot of wear and tear in his body.
Norton started out in.
He was born in Illinois, family moved to to California.
He joined the Marines became a marine Champion, an AAU champion, and he turned Pro because he was broke when he left the Marines.
He was in the Marines for five years.
He needed his money and he wasn’t making much money a couple thousand each fight and the thing about uh different one big difference between Morgan and Ali of course was the fact that Dorian didn’t have the amateur pedigree that Ali had Ali.
Had.
You know well over to almost 300 amateur fights Norman at like 24 amateur fights in total he was 22-2, but he was a big man.
He was physically Ali Grew From A light.
Heavy into a heavy Norton was physically a big guy.
He was known as the black Hercules, the Adonis, and he appeared in the mandingo movies.
When you see this new movie Creed coming out in the commercial and the show, Michael B, Jordan and the other actor and they’re cut, you know how muscular they look.
They looked flabby compared to how Ken Norton looked in real life.
Lauren was unbelievably built and Angelo called him the bull moose.
Now I want to say when I met Norton, I I thought this guy’s got to be six seven.
He can’t just be six three nicest kindest person.
He was just such a great person and and uh he loved Ali, and I said you weren’t angry after the third fight he said I was upset, but not at Ali.
I was upset with the judges, not that League.
He said Ali gave me a life.
You know I would have had to move back in with my son with my father until I fought Ali the first time and after that my money went up.
I was able to support my family, so he said I’ve always loved that League personally, and he knows that in fact, long after the careers were over, Norton was in a car crash.
That’S why he talked the way he did in his later years and he’d gone off.
The freeway Ali heard about it in New York chartered a plane and flew to San Diego and when Norton woke up from his coma Ali was holding his hand.
So wasn’t personal at all was business.
Now we come to this third fight in Yankee Stadium.
It was an interesting day September 26th.
It was a cold windy.
Blustery day the police were on strike, so they had to get higher private policemen and security.
A lot of people got in free, everyone got mugged just about her, had their pockets picked and um uh, one of the one of the reporters that said just take to the other reporters.
The younger reporters take what you need, because everything else you’re going to get pickpocketed, don’t take your wallet, don’t take anything else.
Take your press pass, take a piece of paper and a pen.
That’S it because your wallet, your watch, anything else will get stolen and he was right.
So this fight remains extremely controversial to this day and there are a lot of people like George Foreman, whom I adore said that you know if they fought 100 times normally would win 100 times.
Everyone thinks that Norton won this fight, and and most people do.
I did when I saw it originally, but I’ve watched it several thousand times since then.
Yes, I’m a boxing junkie and I’m not.
I still think Norton won, but there’s some big, very big ifs now in boxing Angela Dundee always said.
To me ifs, don’t count, you can’t say if this would have happened, then that would have happened.
You could only go by what did happen.
That’S the way history works.
You know, as he used to say, if the West had gone into Germany in the early 30s and got rid of Hitler.
There would be no second world war, but they didn’t do it so, with Norton and Ali the fight starts off and Ally wins the first four rounds, he’s dancing he’s dancing.
He his speed, never left him he’s outlining Norton he’s not hurting Norton, but he’s live in good shots he’s winning the rounds, wins the first four four round fifth round Norton, just storms out in Corner’s alley on the ropes and gives him a full body beating hits Him to the to the to the liver to the kidneys he’s bringing shots up to the head.
You know, Ally comes back.
Has it been around in the sixth really lays a beating on Ali in the seventh? So if you’re looking at this now after seven rounds right, you could say that it’s it’s, you could even say it’s.
It’S four rounds to three or five rounds to two for Ali.
That means there’s eight more rounds to go so if Ali’s won.
Five of the first seven rounds that means to win the fight.
He only needs to win three of the next eight rounds.
So it’s not it’s no longer.
You know a 15 round fight and look at it in a different way.
After five rounds, it was scored.
Four rounds Ali one round, Norton, that’s a 10 round fight Ali needs to win four of the next 10 Rounds and he could still come out ahead.
Oh the fight on Ali’s dancing, but Ali’s.
We don’t know how well Ali trained before the fight Harold Conrad, by the way, the movie, The Harder They Fall, the character Humphrey Bogart played.
It was based on Harold Conrad this boxing promo uh publicist very famous man.
He was a publicist for Bugsy Siegel and he he um.
He was promoting Ali and he couldn’t find Ali uh the night before the fight, because I wanted to do interviews and he got a key to Ali’s bedroom.
His um hotel room went in and there was Ali in bed.
He said with several girls, I don’t know if that’s true or not, but he just said you know I just can’t.
I can’t believe this you’re fighting Norton, who wants to take your head off and you’re doing this and apparently he said, I’m not worried about him, I’m in shape.
So I I don’t know if that happened or not.
That’S what I read um.
It may be true, it may not so Ali.
You know I was entering the ring.
He’S got Angelo Dundee there, but Norm doesn’t have any fudge and that’s a big problem because he’s getting the wrong advice from his Corner.
His corner is telling him what to do and what not to do so, you know being Guided by Eddie Fox you also guided um Joe Frazier.
You know makes a really big difference.
So Norton you know, is going up and he’s beating all these different people and that style of his that Archie Moore, crab-like defense and you can never see where Norton’s punches were coming from, because if it’s herky-jerky style it gave Ali Fitz it gave Ali problems Norm.
Could land on Ali and Ali couldn’t time him? In fact, Ali said and George battles said that the hardest guy they ever had a time had the most difficulty with was Frasier.
Now we missed a lot of punches and all three fights of Frazier, because Frazier is always bobbing and weaving, but he was usually going from side to side and that’s very hard to time, especially when it’s a smaller man.
Norton went side to side, but he went up and down.
He went on angles.
He was such a uh, a Herky jerky motion.
He was almost impossible at the time, even though he was a big man.
He was a big Target.
Ali just had a lot of problems with him, and so Ali had times where you know.
If he could get his jab going and get shots off, he could land punches and punches, but he couldn’t stand there and pot shot him as he would like to do.
At times, Ali loved doing that you couldn’t do if Norton he was just you know, don’t it was just too difficult to figure the hit not for Foreman, but against Ali he rose to the top and so they’re fighting four rounds.
Five rounds, um sixth rounds seven rounds and watching the fight now Jerry Eisenberg, the Hall of Fame writer, brilliant writer.
He was the one who said about the third Ali Frazier fight they’re, not fighting for the heavyweight title of the world, they’re fighting for the heavyweight title of each other, he’s watching the fight and he’s thinking.
This is a boring fight, and not only that, I I didn’t, I mean it was at times a boring fight, because Ali laid on the ropes he didn’t have the legs and I think after the third freitian fight he was done as a fighter, but who’s going To have the right, I certainly didn’t, and who did no one did have the right to tell the great Muhammad Ali.
You should call it a day, so they put all this money in front of him.
Plus all the people in boxing are saying: if you go, the sport dies, you got to stay so Norton knew coming into the fight that he was fighting more than just an aging alley.
He was fighting the legend of Ali.
He was fighting Ali’s accomplishments and Ali’s place not only in fistic history but in world history and Norton thought he was well ahead, so he had parts and rounds where he would really go after Ali, but he also had other parts where he took it easy.
You know and let Ali expend his energy, the rule of thumb back in 1976 was and for the Hundred Years previously and a little time after 76 was if you’re going to beat a world champion by a decision.
You have to dominate them every round and put them down a couple times, but you have to beat the hell out of them all every all three minutes of every round and lump his face up close his eyes.
You have to make it such a one-sided beating that the judges cannot take it away from you and that didn’t happen.
Norton-Dominated parts of the fight did he dominate every minute of every round.
No did he lump up Ali’s face? No it’ll give him the worst beating of his life.
No, he he dominated parts of the fight, but he certainly didn’t dominate entire fight.
Did he dominate enough of the fight to win the title? I thought he did, but that wasn’t the way it was ruled at the time so Norton’s doing his best he’s hitting Ali to the body he’s hitting on these overhand rights that Ali’s having trouble blocking you know, Norton had a longer reach, so normally throw these arcing Right hands and Ali would have his hand up, but the punch would come behind the glove hit him and on the side of the head here, which is very discombobulating.
Norton landed.
A lot of shots Ali proved that he had the best jaw in all of boxing history, because no one hit him like that.
Foreman hit him.
Some phenomenal shots in the flanks and in the chin and Ali took him and said.
Is that all you got so he’s talking to Norton the whole time he’s flurring in different parts of different rounds? So you know it looked like after the eighth round you know Norton’s winning it looked like Ali had the first four and then you could say: Norton won the next three to four rounds, so it it’s it’s pretty even Ally’s winning around here there Norton seems to Be winning more rounds during the whole fight, and you know Ali always got up to face certain opponents, but the opponents definitely got up to face him and Norton was one of those guys.
This meant everything to him.
You know this was this.
Was a personal competition? Competition excuse me between him and Ali.
He wanted to prove that there was no way.
You know this old guy can beat me it’s my turn.
It’S my chance.
I’M gon na reign as the heavyweight King and I’m going to take it from Ali and Ali had done all this talking pointing out Norton’s flaws and Norton’s mistakes.
All the psychological warfare Norton just said you know they asked him at the press conference uh.
Do you have any um? Would you like to come up to the Deus here and you know he’s sitting down today, it’s come up to the mic and he said: what’s going to be your main target in this fight? What’S your strategy, your goal and he walked over to Ali and he puts a a burlap bag on his head, which Ali let’s stay on for Comic effect and then took off and Norton just said.
Well, he talks a lot so my uh, my goal for this fight is going to be his head.
That’S my strategy.
It was right, you know that’s what he was trying to do and he whacked out in the head many times.
Norton was supremely confident.
He said his legs are gone, Frazier took anything left uh.
All he could do now is just stand there and take a woman so, and I intend to give it to him.
This is my time to shine.
I’M the younger man, I’m the better fighter, he’s done and I’m going to show the world and throughout the fight, I’m watching the fight at Maple, Leaf, Gardens in closed circuit and I’m going like this.
I’M going come on, my hobby get going get going and I would say my father: he lost that amount.
He lost that round.
My father say he can’t keep giving rounds away like this, and I – and I said I know, he’s – got to start putting rounds in the bank, but my father said you have to also understand that the audience is entirely Pro alley and he said that has to Affect the judges, the judges, of course, are supposed to be objective, right.
Lots and judging is supposed to be objective, but I’ll judge is a human they’re subjective and they bring their personal biases into each fight and they knew whether, where their bread was buttered, but still, I think you know, Arthur McKinney uh, Harold leiterman is magnificent judge and I believe Barney Smith was the other one.
He you know they all.
It was a close fight.
I mean it was a very close fight and they had a close fight so rounds where you think well, maybe Ali did enough to pull it out.
You’D find out later Ali did win that and then you had Norton, I think Norton took that round and you look at their scorecards and nothing did take them out.
But the mistake, the Fatal mistake that Norton made to the judges, but not in the eyes of the people watching other than the judges is he didn’t, have that good, a corner without a reflection.
So after the 13th round or 14th round his Corner said you’re winning the fight don’t take a chance, don’t get caught Ally could still punch.
You can’t see a guy who’s, six foot three to quarter 225 pounds in well-coordinated, can’t punch Ali.
You know hurt Martin several times in all their fights.
However, Norton gave away the 15th round, he wouldn’t engage, so all Ali had to do is show a minimal amount of offense and so going in after 14 rounds.
The fight on two cards – Arthur mccandy’s card and hero 11, was dead even seven rounds, a piece and on the other card, uh Barney Smith had a 7-6 alley with money so that car could have gone either way.
So 15th round decides to fight.
Now, when Natalie gets up Angelo Dundee said you need this round.
This round ties to fight.
You know you, you could tie it or win it with this round.
You cannot lose this round and keep your tight and Ali knew that that’s all they wanted to hear.
Didn’T need to be told anything else and it dominates around Norton’s running Ali is the aggressor and, of course, after the fight, nothing smiling and everyone’s sitting there myself.
So many people thought well Norton won, he he beat the great alley and the scores come back and Letterman all the pre.
The previous two fights have been split.
The solution, this one for Norton, second one for Ali and this fight was an anonymous decision.
So when you hear that I went uh, oh you know, I got a chill going down my spine, my stomach’s dirty.
Oh, no, not an unanimous decision.
They’Re not going to do this to Muhammad! Please don’t and it was.
It was uh judge, Harold Letterman scores to fight eight seven for Muhammad Ali referee, Arthur Tammy scores to fight eight seven and there’s that long pause Muhammad Ali.
So it’s over and then judge Barney Smith scores.
It uh eight rounds alley one even six, Norton the winner by unanimous decision, Muhammad Ali and Norton, is crying.
He just turns his head puts his head in his hand crying when the fight ended, because I was speaking to him and Angelo about this.
You know Norton turns to Ali he’s, put you know UF in this and UF, and that it’s just the adrenaline at the moment I kicked her and and they can’t take it away from me, I beat the hell out of you, I’m the Champion you’re, nothing now And Angela, you could clearly hear him to take, turns to him and says: f, f, you you know and when they announce it, Norton’s stunned his crime, it’s just Pride and Ali’s scene leaving the ring, and this is why you have to love Ali because he was Ali was extremely magnetic.
What happened is at the press conference.
He said I want to thank the judges uh.
They were very kind to me.
I thought Kenny fought the better fight.
I I clearly thought after the fight the penny won and years later, when he was asked about it 1524.
.
He said no Kenny won that fight without a day he won the third fight, and, and so it can give Norton the title.
But at least you can respect someone like Ali, you know Norton who loved them just said.
Well, you know that’s one of the reasons why I love him.
He was honest.
He admitted he lost the fight and Ally’s own eyes.
He lost a fight.
He was grateful for the decision, but his Norton said to me.
He said it’s not just The Fighter, the man I’m fighting, I mean if he goes out of boxing all the big money goes.
You know the five million eight million 10 million dollar fights that we’ve seen today.
This all started with Ali all the big money in basketball, baseball football.
It all started with Ali.
So without Ali Norton and every heavyweights fee, all boxers sleep will go back down again and so Ali was the reason for the big money he put asses in the seats and money is the name of the game.
In boxing you have to put Assets in the seats – and I already did that so Norton still had his career after that, but Ali basically didn’t have anything left.
He had the fights of sphinx lose the first one win the second one.
Then he loses to homes.
A fight that never should have happened and then the burger can finally retired snorting goes on to keep fighting and then he, you know he’s awarded the title: when Sphinx wouldn’t defend against him and and then he loses it in his first defense to the great Larry Holmes and then Norton goes on to fight Beyond you know way past his Prime in a very very old Market loses to to um uh, Jerry Cooney, and you know to other Fighters because he just didn’t have anything left.
But when I would speak to Norton people when they would speak to Norton later in his life before he passed away, they would look at him and Norton had a halting speech.
You know his voice was kind of hoarse.
We would ask him a question um.
If you ever think that moving to Los Angeles from San Diego because you’ll get a movie well, I thought about it, but not nothing.
To do with punches was driving on the freeway, as I said earlier, in San Diego after his career, and he fell off, the car went off and the head was in a coma and suffered me back.
He recovered quite a bit put a lot of energy into that and I used to hug him.
I used to love to see him.
I would seem like the Hall of Fame, but I just never got over how physically imposing Muhammad Ali was gigantic, but him and Norton were the same size, but Ali was always smiling and friendly and joking and Norton.
We always had a smile on his face.
But Norton he just not just sail the doorway, he blocked it and one time at the hall of fame we’re out of dinner one night and I was talking to him and I sport.
I spilled some wine on my shoes and it’s just drained emotion from his face and he looked at me, look at the shoes and he said Lou.
I certainly hope you have fifteen hundred dollars on here.
Otherwise, there are a lot of trouble in a world of pain, is soon to descend upon you, and I I turn into Jackie Gleason, I’m sorry and he laughed and he put his hand in the trophies I’m just kidding.
I got him from Payless.
They were like 30.
.
I mean I really because yeah it’s not real leather, okay, but he said he said I had you.
I said I had four strokes while you were talking to me, but a a great person uh.
It was interesting to see him and Ollie together, because I I saw a foreman and Frazier and Ally together and they and each other Frazier didn’t like Ali, even though they made peace within their lives.
Frasier still had a spot and it’s hard for the way out of here.
Uh Norton, as I said, always looked up to Ali the third fight.
I think the first fight between them uh was nerve-wracking because you could tell Ali didn’t know what to do after his.
They always wrote all he could do was he had to protect himself, but still try to win.
Second, fight Ali got into shape, really worked out, really ran a lot of miles, sparred a lot and won third fight everyone’s sitting there in Maple Leaf Gardens, and I think around the world and a Yankees Stadium thought.
How does Ali have anything left after that? Fright fight with Frasier, he said it was the closest thing to death.
You know, 120 degrees, it was completely dehydrated and why would you come back and fight after that? You’Ve got nothing to prove, but he wanted to fight Norton to get a second win to win.
The series and and that’s what happened, um the fight – didn’t, do that well financially because of the police strike and because of the police strike, a lot of people got into the city and so uh Bob Aaron took a bath on the fight.
Uh made some money back on the closed circuit and, as I said everywhere, not just to find something interesting, but the fans everywhere were Pro alley yeah.
So because of that, you know that that had to have affected the judgments, although even in spite of that, the judge’s scorecard still you know we’re extremely close on on two of the judges.
Scorecards Ali won the fight in the 15th round, meaning if nortona won the 15th round, he won, he would have won a split decision two to one.
You know and that’s how close he was, but he gave the round away.
He willingly gave the Roundup, because that’s what he was told to do by his Corner, whereas the smarter man angel, I’m being said, we’re behind.
You got to win this around just to stay, and that was the difference in the fight Ali knew it fought his heart out.
Uh knew how to rally at the end of a round, but he did pull other rounds out to during the fight and because of that winning the 15th round the bat of ice Norton got Natalie did win the 15th round Ali ends up retaining the world heavyweight Title and and still you know, went on it may have been better for him, maybe in terms of physicality, if you had loss, but that would have just burden to keep fighting and ask for what I can fight.
We’Ve been that close, so Ali wins the fight.
Still the World Heavyweight Champion should have retired, but didn’t that was a great night and great fight.
You can get it on on uh YouTube.
Jerry Eisenberg thought it was a boring fight but uh to me it was always exciting when Aloo fought because anytime he got hurt or hit or you look like you thought he may be losing.
It was a very scary thing for me and office fans.
All of his fans would sit there like this and when we start jumping alley, I believe like come on, pull it out.
You can do it and uh Ali proved to be.
You know incredible that night.
He knew when to turn it on new one to turn it off and according to the judges, they won the fight.
You got to give him credit uh, you have to rate him as one of the greatest heavily champions of all time.
I still think the greatest heavyweight champion of all kinds, Joe Lewis, but uh Ali’s right up there with him.
My name is Lou Eisen.
This has been another episode of ring talk.
We hope you enjoyed it join us next Sunday and go to my sub stack page Lou Eisen, uh, uh, dot, dot substack.
com, where you’ll find it’s called um Once Upon a Time the price range and you find wonderful pieces and articles and great Fighters and fights from Boxing’S glove, it’s about.
Thank you, enjoy the rest of your weekend.
See you next week, foreign
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