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EPISODE: Episode 1
Join Lou Eisen on Ring Talk as he takes us back to April 17th, 1909, for one of the most intense heavyweight fights in history – Joe Jeanette vs Sam McVea. Discover the strategies, drama, and legacy behind this unforgettable bout. Don’t miss this week’s episode!
Ring Talk
Lou Eisen
Boxing history
Joe Jeanette
Sam McVea
1909 heavyweight fight
Classic boxing
Fight analysis
Boxing legends
Heavyweight boxing
Transcribed
[, Music, ] foreign [, Music, ] – and this is written, talk and welcome to this week’s edition.
I’M just going to adjust the camera here.
Just a teeny bit uh today we’re going to talk about a fight that was recommended last week, uh.
Someone said why don’t you talk about this fight, and so we are it’s: the Sam McVeigh fight, the heavyweight fight between Joe Jeanette that took place April 17, 1909, 114 years ago in Paris, at the Cirque de Paris and outdoor stadium.
The referee was Emil Metro and it’s it’s an interesting fight, because a lot has been written about this fight, which is which has been untrue, uh primarily by Matt Fleischer.
I have a um.
How do I say it? I not that I have a problem with fellatio.
Well, I guess I do a lot of what he’s written has just been embellishments.
So, for instance, when he wrote about the I think about this last night, he wrote about the Great Canadian fighter, Jack or George Ditson, who was the first black man to ever win a world title and he just fabricated his background.
He could have called uh the records department, you know uh birth and death certificate and the census Department in the province of Nova Scotia, but he didn’t so.
He made up this thing where George Dixon’s, you know father was a white British sailor who brought George Dixon up from Mississippi and that’s simply not true.
Dixon was important to 1870.
, the British weren’t in the United States in 1870.
In the War of 1812, his family, his grandparents, were brought up as one of 13 families to to africville and then and then at that point uh.
His father, um Samuel, was born and then met a young African Canadian woman years later and they had children, of which George was won, one of them, but um this isn’t what Fleischer did he just made it up? So if you read Netflix here and Gilbert odd Gilbert odd was a British writer, a very good British writer, slicer popularized to sport all over the world with his magazine Ring magazine and books and that most of the books he had weren’t were not accurate, but that He wrote, but the thing about gam Bernard of course was when I was a kid.
His were the only books you could get in Canada, you couldn’t get other very rarely.
Could you get other boxing books in Canada unless they were really really old? So both these men wrote that there were 49 knockdowns, 49 round fight and and that uh 37 knockdowns excuse me.
So they said that McVeigh knocked uh, Joe Jeanette down 26 times, which never happened and McVeigh was knocked down 11 times I mean Faye wasn’t knocked down ever in that fight, so to say that it’s just ridiculous but uh they wanted to spice it up.
How do we know what they said was not true? Well, we know, because we have the Contemporary reports from French reporters who were there.
They mentioned um uh Joe Jeanette, going down four or five times.
You know during the fight four five six seven, maybe but didn’t go down.
You know 26 times and Nick Faye wasn’t excuse me.
It wasn’t knocked down at all.
So uh Joe Jeanette was born August 26.
1879.
In New Jersey.
He lived a long.
Life died July, 2nd 1958 at 157 votes.
He won 79.
He knocked out 66 opponents.
He only lost nine.
He had six draws, one no contest and 62 no decisions which was common back.
Then you know if one fighter couldn’t score knockout, it was considered her in no decision he had 62, which is more than some Fighters these days have in their entire career uh.
When you look at a guy like Sam McVeigh, McVeigh, didn’t live long May 17.
1884 to December 23rd night uh 1921, but they was born in Oxnard California.
He died at the age of 37 from pneumonia and his best friend in boxing Jack Johnson paid for his hospital care and paid for his burial and paid for the headstone um.
If they had 112 boats, he won 78 and knocked out 60 people.
He only lost 18 13 draws and he had three no contests.
We don’t know it would take some research, it could be done and maybe it has been done.
I’M not aware of it.
How many of the losses Jeanette had and McVeigh had that were primarily wins but were held against them because of the color of their skin um? That’S a difficult question to answer and it’s a difficult question, because most of the time, black Fighters with this kind of skill only thought each other.
They rarely were allowed to fight top white Fighters and so McVeigh and Jeanette ended up fighting Sam Langford and other guys.
Harry Wills, you know 10 15 times each it.
It was quite common.
So, as I said, this fight took place on a cold windy day April Outdoors April 17, 1909.
In France.
It was for the world colored heavyweight championship, and this was uh supposed to be a fight to the Finish and Joe Jeanette was the favorite three to four to one favorite.
When you watch film of Joe Jeanette fight, especially you could see it.
It’S a good fight between him and Sam Langford, it’s very modern style.
Where he’s sticking that jab and then he’s leaning back when you’re trying to hit him and he’s good at covering up he’s good at blocking shots, he’s good at rolling with shots.
Excuse me he’s good at rolling with shots and good at slipping shots good at sliding shots.
So he’s he’s he’s a really good technical boxer.
Sam McVeigh was not that kind of guy Sam McVeigh was a walk-in face.
First, brawler and McVeigh was the kind of guy that would take two or three punches from you, if not more just to line his because his were much stronger punches.
In fact, when you watch them side by side, you’d think McVeigh was just shorter.
He wasn’t he’s five.
Ten and a half Jeanette was five ten.
So it’s a soft.
Maybe someone can answer this question uh for me, but um.
I swear I’ve seen this fight on YouTube or some other platform of these guys fighting and now I wasn’t able to find it this past week, which was rather frustrating.
So this was a finished fight this this was uh.
There was no set amount of rounds if it ended in five.
It ended in five if it ended in 80, it ended in 80 and it was quite common back then to have in 1905.
finish fights fight for guys.
You know whoever went first, whoever won my knockout.
Excuse me, uh, whoever went by knockout, you know won the fight.
The last man standing was the winner and they fought for 30 000 frames, which is about six thousand dollars, and that was a lot back.
Then.
In 1909 and whoever won the fight got the money, the loser doesn’t get money, so you know you had to win the fight, I’m sure Jeanette, which was common back then, would have given some money to Sam McPhee.
Although McVeigh was broke for most of his career and died, panelists uh there were about 2500 fans in attendance, and you know in France I mean Faye was treated as a god.
He was treated as a boxing God.
The king of France and all black Fighters retreated well there.
They they were stunned at how well they were treated as opposed to how poorly they were treated in the United States and Canada.
So you know a guy like Sam langford’s walking on a sidewalk in France with some of his friends and his manager, and he sees a white man walking towards him and and just out of habit.
He steps off the sidewalk onto the street bows his head.
I’M sorry, sir, and the guy puts his the white man puts his hand on lying for children and says you don’t have to get off the street.
For me, I’m no better than you we’re equal.
Please please, sir, you know don’t apologize to me and he lying for couldn’t believe it he’d never encountered that before neither had had um Jack, Johnson or or although Jack Johnson didn’t care, Joe Jeanette or Sam mcvade, they were used to the n-word being called that every Day all day, wherever they were, especially when they’re in the fight context in Arena and so being treated, that well was just something that was completely foreign uh to them.
So it was a very cold evening and people call this the greatest fight that ever happened and really it was sort of two fights in one, because what you had was you had uh for the first 40 rounds.
It was mostly Sam McVeigh charging in and just pounding Jeanette’s body and then bringing it upstairs.
Mcvay was um, but there’s a fight with with him against battling Jim Johnson.
You can get that in YouTube and it gives you a small, very small snippet.
He was incredibly strong, big shoulders and you could tie him up, but he was really Adept at getting his arms free.
He put his head under your chin to make your head a Target and then he would hit you with left, hands and right hands and you’re.
Seeing this that that there were times where, against battling Jim Johnson, where Johnson hit him flush, two or three times and McVeigh just smiled and kept walking forward, it had virtually no effect on them.
There was another time in close where McVeigh threw a short right hand and missed and went down just from the power of his own punch from missing, so they had fought before this wasn’t the first time uh these guys had fought.
This was the third or five fights between Johnson and McVay and uh.
John won the first one by 10 round decision.
Mcveigh won the second by 20 round decision and Jeanette won this one, of course, in 49 rounds and then the fourth one was a 30-round draw, and the fifth was a 12 round draw.
I just can’t imagine fighting 30 rounds in a fight and then having somebody you know it’s a draw.
I mean three minute rounds, that’s 90 minutes of brawling and you know no, no winner has been decided, that’s rather frustrating so they met on this night and uh.
As I said before, they were 48 three minute rounds and uh.
They said 27 knockdowns occurred in favorite McVeigh during the first two thirds of the fight.
Um McVeigh was very strong, and so he penned he was constantly on the move against Jeanette.
You know it’s interesting in a boxing match where you can think and I’m not thinking from a fan perspective now, but from a fighter perspective.
This is what I’m going to do.
This guy likes to come forward.
So when he’s coming at me, I’m going to hit him I’m going to walk him and do a punch, but I got to keep circling him to force him to reset and then the fight starts and as Joe Lewis said, originally everyone’s got a plan until they Get punched in the face, so what happens? You know the fight starts and you’re thinking? Well, I’m going to do this, I’m not going to do that and the minute the Bell Rings.
You take one step and the guy’s already in your face he’s already there hitting you and you weren’t planning on this.
You were planning on moving and your Corners yelling move to the side, turn them turn them and you’re trying to turn them.
But you can’t turn him he’s got his arm up like that or his shoulder and he’s holding you in place while he’s pounding you and and while you’re trying to get out of there, he’s already rung your bell.
This is 10 15 seconds into the fight.
So your plans go out the window and this is what happened.
You know Jeanette knew how McVeigh fought he knew he was a come forward.
Brawler, that’s the kind of guy he was so what he did was he thought I’ll just come forward.
You know I’ll I’ll.
Let him come to me, excuse me and then I’ll just slip and slide.
You know I’ll I’ll Parry shots.
Um says here.
One of my streams is having a connection issue.
Some of your streams having connection issues stand by fixed okay, great, thank you so um glad.
We got that out of the way, so there’s McVeigh, pounding away on Jeanette and Jeanette’s doing everything he can to keep McVeigh away from him.
He’S hitting him and and he’s hitting him to the body, but you know McPhee’s body is, is like a metal jacket.
You know it’s, it’s it’s really ripped.
So what are you gon na? Do he’s hitting him in the body and it’s not slowing him down and Jeanette’s against the ropes and he’s taking shots, he’s getting hit in the head he’s getting whacked and you know in the chin, he’s getting hit in the side of the head.
He’S getting wobbled and he’s hanging on to vape, but McVeigh is so strong.
He just has to flex his shoulders and you know Jeanette can’t hold on to him and he’s thinking.
What am I going to do this? I can’t do this.
I can’t take a beating like this for how many rounds I mean he’ll he’ll, stop me and they were both in phenomenal condition.
They were both used to Long fights, so the first round ends and Jeanette’s in his corner and he’s you know very intelligent man.
Very successful after boxing you know, ran his own gym, but also had a taxi and limousine service very well liked and Jeanette is thinking.
How am I going to stop him? He’S he’s strong, I mean hitting him in the arms I’m hitting him in the stomach because in 15 to 20 rounds he said I’m about to be around that he’s.
Just giving me too much of a beating.
So what’s happening is he’s he’s pounding him and Jeanette’s thinking.
I got ta slow him down.
If I can’t stop his legs, you know by hitting him to the stomach.
Although he’s still going to do that, I got ta bind him.
That’S the only way I can do it and so Jeanette starts to focus uh on mcveigh’s face and so he’s just jabbing.
Him he’s constantly circling to his lap and he’s taken Alicia’s shots, but he’s jabbing to mcvade’s, face and mcvay’s, not making any attempt to slide and slip the shots or block them he’s willing to take two three four shots in a rogue to his eyes, because he’s Going to come in with an overhand right, that’s going to rock Like a Rock Jeanette and drop him, which is what happened, and you know he.
He gave um a phenomenal beating a full body.
Beating beat him in the ribs.
You know hit him in the chin and every time Jeanette went down.
You know he he didn’t just take a knee.
He was stretched like he was getting up.
Blinking his eyes didn’t know where he was taking a breath, but he knew to take the full nine count, use the ropes to get up and then McVeigh would charge him to get rid of him.
And you know they said there were at least six to ten times when Jeanette was a punch or two away from going out for good.
But the bell rang and then, when the next round started, Jeanette would just run forcing McVeigh to come after him and while mcphates coming after him face first Jeanette’s whacking him in the eyes all about the eyes, whacking him in the nose and he’s thinking.
This is the only shot I got.
I can hit him in the body he’s still doing that at times.
But it’s you know it’s like hitting a radial tire.
It’S not doing any damage.
I can hit it all day, long, I’m not going to hurt him in the body and so gymnastics, and it was smart in its part, all he’s thinking now is I’m gon na I’m gon na whoop this guy, but I’m gon na whoop him by by blinding Him that’s all I can do.
I got to make a terrible day for him that way so um, we know from the French sources that were writing about the fight that it was a brutal fight and the knockdown thing before the weren’t even remotely close to number knockdowns that Gilbert odd and that Fleischer recorded because they added knock down and uh Jeanette was sprawled on the canvas he got drops numerous times, but not 27 times, but he got dropped a lot of times and he just he I I don’t know.
How do you get dropped that many times and continue getting up, but he did he kept getting up? He would take the nine count and he would get up and it’s likely they said he went down five times in the 19th round alone.
Now here’s the interesting thing but getting knocked down when you get knocked down um, it saves you for more punishment.
So one of the comments about Muhammad Ali has always been.
You know he was the toughest guy.
They were stepping the ring and that’s true, but they said if he’d got that if he’d been down, if he’d gone down a lot more, he would have saved himself from being on the ropes absorbing so much punishment, and that holds true for a lot of Fighters.
But Jeanette and a lot of Fighters would go down in the bare knuckle era deliberately to avoid punishment, but not Jeanette.
Jeanette got knocked down numerous times.
As I said in the 19th round, five times alone, he got dropped and he managed to get up now.
These days he would stop the fight, but not back then, and people were just they would gasp at his ability not only to recuperate and come back fighting but to stand against the ropes with his arms up and take 15 20 30 40 shots to his to His sides to his head just keep getting pounded and they thought if they was going to kill him, he’s got to do something and he would try to hold McVeigh.
But you know his arms are getting tired, because McVeigh was just leaning against him and wrestling with him, and you know breaking his arms freed to hit him and he’s hitting he’s hitting him left hooks to delivery sitting.
Um Jeanette, you know uppercuts, hitting him to the side of the head which just combobulates, disoriented fighter and uh he’s buckling his knees throughout most of the fight, but he’s doing it and doing it and you almost get a sense during the fight that you know you’re.
Looking at McVeigh and you’re thinking this better work, because if you keep doing this and he keeps staying in there with you – eventually you’re not going to have anything left to do this anymore.
And so you know one of the most widely publicized stories about the fight occurred in the New York Times, and they said it was the best fight ever in France.
Since the John L, salvin Charlie Mitchell fight the 39 Round draw at Chantilly in 1888, which is a fight that when they got Sullivan and Mitchell, got there, it was like 62 degrees and by the time they got into their boxing trunks.
It was like 50 degrees and they were fighting in 40 degree weather and then they were arrested after the 30-round drop and they agreed to a draw because their lips were purple.
Their hands were blue, they were just frozen stiff.
How they didn’t die from the wedding announced um all accounts of the McVeigh Janette fight, say that McVeigh had the better of the fight for 40 rounds.
You know before Jeanette really rallied.
So that’s you know.
120 Minutes two hours I mean it’s it’s like saying today.
It would be like watching a fight where a guy gets hammered for 11 rounds, he’s just against the roads, he’s taken a beating and in 12th round he comes out and turns to tide and wins the fight that rarely, if ever happens, I’ve seen it only happen.
You know I’m in my 60s and I’ve only seen that happen a couple times once with my friend Mike Weaver, when he fought Big, John Tate and Tate won the first 14 and then Weaver caught him in the 15th round of about 15 seconds left.
You know left hook right hand and Tate was out cold, but that’s where you know laurent.
till was beating.
The hotel was beating uh Jake LaMotta.
We discussed that fight about a month ago, lamanna caught him with 13 seconds left in the fight and dropped him and ended up winning with only three seconds remaining in the 15th round.
So that’s what makes the sport so great, because you can’t turn away and say well, this guy’s will need a fight.
It’S over I’ll go look at something else because a lot of times in boxing you know you go look at something else and you missed what happened now.
Um Jeanette was taking a tremendous punishment and at that point, as he’s taken his punishment, they’re saying to him uh, you know his Corner saying maybe you want to you know you did your best.
Maybe you want to call it a day, because the 21st and 22nd rounds were really the worst rounds of the fight for Jeanette, because he’s throwing shots to McVay and and mcfades slipping them he’s ducking under them mostly, and because he knows he knows uh Jeanette’s targeting His eyes and mcveigh’s coming underneath and he’s hitting him to the belly, he’s hitting him in the arms, but he’s Landing.
Two three four five punch combinations in the head and Jeanette’s trying to hold on as he tries to hold on and vape breaks the whole.
You know, steps back, hits him with the left, uppercut right, uppercut, right hand and and Jeanette goes down and didn’t just go down accidentally where a fighter goes down and he started smiling and looking at his corner, I mean he hit the canvas with a thud.
A lot of times and he’s lying there with his arms splayed and the referee is counting and he shakes his head and he just keeps getting up and McVeigh.
It had to be frustrating to him because he’s thinking you know at this point in the 21st round.
This is the fifth time I’ve dropped this guy and I didn’t just hit him with a fluke shot or a counter shot and he wasn’t off balance.
I hit him with everything I had.
You know.
Mcveigh came into the fight and he weighed 201 pounds.
He probably about 205 206 and um Jeanette, weighed a lot less at 195.
, so McVeigh had had to wait.
He was a two heavyweight, he was pounding on him and he was able to drop him without much problem and um McVeigh put in extra time in training, and he did a lot of extra running in training.
A lot of extra sparring and a lot of extra calisthenics, so he was ripped, he was muscular and he was in shape.
He was ready to go 50 60 70 rounds if he had to and he he um.
He seemed to show absolutely no regard or respect for Jeanette’s punches.
I mean he just brushed them away like a surface nuisance.
Just you know get out of here, and you know: McVay was had been knocked out by his best friend Jack Johnson they’d fought before, and it was a dull fight because they were friends but going to the 15th round.
Johnson’S manager at the time said to him.
Unless there’s a dramatic finish, it’s likely, you won’t get paid and so Johnson just went out and knocked him out and and when you watch Johnson beat James J Jeffries one of the corner, man in Santa Fe, so they were very close and they hung out together.
Um a lot – and I think part of that’s because you know two black men in a profession which is racially slanted against them, they’re both tremendous races but also like they never asked Johnson.
For anything he never asked him for money or for help with anything.
He was just his friend and Johnson.
I think, appreciated that you know the there were four four great Fighters: black Fighters.
I mean they’re a lot more than that, but the most well-known at heavyweight were Sam line for the Canadian Jack Johnson, from Texas, Sam McVeigh, from Oxnard, California and of course, Joe Jeanette from New Jersey, and you can also add Harry Wheels.
Excuse me into that.
So they fought each other a lot and they had to endure a lot of racism, but each man took it in a different way.
Johnson, when he people would yell things out at him, would smile that was his way uh to deflect it didn’t like it, but he would smile and then he would take it out on his opponent and so when his opponent’s corner uh, for instance, when he fought James J, Jeffries and James Corbett, the farmer champ, was calling him names and using the n-word.
You know during the fight when he would hang on to Jeffries Johnson would say you know, I’m just going to take it out on your boy here, the more you call me that the more he’s gon na get more teeth he’s going to lose.
I’M just gon na kill him.
You know if you want to help him shut up and Corbett was so phoning at the mouth literally with racism.
He couldn’t stop himself.
Langford was a guy who would read what they wrote about him in the papers.
This happened in Britain, one time where they said that you know you had a yellow streak.
Langford had the yellow streak.
Black boxers are supposed to have the yellow streak and the writer that wrote it about him wrote some vicious things about them.
So Langford positioned his white opponent, right above where the writer was sitting in the first row and knocked him out cold into the Latin to the guy’s lap and then stuck his head through the ropes and said: hey, hey, mister, how’s, that for a yellow streak and That was how he answered.
You know when another cornerman of a white fighter was yelling things out of John or Langford came out of the seventh round in touch gloves and the other fighter said.
What are you touching gloves for you only touch gloves in the last round and Langford said that’s right, son, but for you this is the last round and then knocked him out so that that would happen guys like Jeanette, wouldn’t even acknowledge people like that Jeanette was Well, educated well spoken and just didn’t like putting up with that, so he ignored it.
Sam McVeigh didn’t like it either, but there wasn’t much he could do about it.
So he focuses him and she’s more on taking it out on people in the ring, and when these four men fought white Fighters, there was a tacit agreement, maybe not so tacit, but there was an agreement beforehand that they wouldn’t go out and kill them within the First one or two rounds: otherwise it wouldn’t get anyone white or black, to get in the ring with him, because their talent effort was so high.
And so it would have to be seven or eight rounds with half the pass.
And then they would say to a guy like McVay or Jeanette or Langford Johnson.
Okay, you can go use your real skills now and do what you want.
The other problem, of course, is when you make these agreements.
People don’t always live up to them, so Langford in particular, but all of them had one standing rule.
I will agree to not knock you out in our 20 round fight.
I will let you go the distance we’ll put on a good exhibition for the fans.
They’Ll never know the difference, but if you break the agreement and really try to go after me, then I’m gon na hurt you, and this happened quite a bit.
There was a fighter, uh lineford was fighting and it was another Black Fighter that had an agreement.
The guy was terrified of Sam, but in the fourth or fifth round Sam was just joking around and the guy really hit Sam in the chin, hard and hit him again and when the round ended.
Sam said that Joe Woodman is trainer.
He’S got to pay for that and the trainer said: okay, you’re right, he broke the rules and went out the next round and knocked him out, and this happened with Joe Jeanette and Sam McVeigh and Jack Johnson.
A lot of those guys, Johnson and Stanley ketchall had an agreement.
It was going to be a 20 round.
Fight and Johnson would have retain the title and catcho wouldn’t try to hurt him because he’ll drop them in the 12th and Johnson said you know, you broke the agreement and then knocked him out and very next punch and knocked out 12 of his teeth, which she Can be seen on tape wiping off his gloves, so the black Fighters back then, the African-American African Canadian Fighters would only take so much garbage from someone before it was like.
Okay, that’s enough! I’Ve done my job.
I did what I was supposed to do.
You didn’t you broke the agreement.
Now you got to pay, these guys fought each other.
So often they knew each other well, so they were always looking.
You know, and a guy like McVay and and a guy like Jeanette, had already fought each other several times.
What are they going to? Do? I mean you know: um Jeanette knows Memphis going to come in and start throwing shots.
He knows McVeigh is going to come in and Target his head and Target his arms and his body, and it’s just going to keep throwing shots like automaton endlessly until I go down for good, so I have to stop and the way I can stop him is To move and keep moving around the ring forcing him to reset forcing him to use his legs.
Of course, the problem is, is that in the first part of the fight, McVeigh is not allowing him to move.
Mcvay is cutting off the ring so well that there’s nowhere, Jeanette can move so everywhere.
He moves he’s taken tremendous shots, he’s getting buckled.
All the time.
He’S getting staggered, however, he’s still targeting mcveigh’s eyes.
He still opens the cut later in the fight.
I I don’t know how late in the fight – I guess fifth, it wasn’t really that late.
Fourth, fifth round opens the title for one of mcvay’s eyes, and he just keeps aiming for that for the rest of the fight he’s aiming for both eyes.
You know he’s punching him on the eye continually hitting with left hooks to deliver right hooks to the body.
The body shots don’t seem to be doing getting anything, but the punches to his eyes ice had a joke.
You know Jeanette doesn’t know if his plan is going to work because he’s he’s taken a hell of a beating and if you watched a fight with battling Jim Johnson um or with Sam Langford excuse me, you see how Jeanette fought he was a modern fighter.
He’S circling around using that left jab and when the other guy Jabs, if throws a shot, he leans back like Ali, would, and that would work.
But McVeigh was so quick and was on him the whole time that that was hard for that kind of.
For me, for Jeanette’s defensive style to work, all he could do was stick to his game plan because he thought that’s the only help I have.
I can’t stand here and Slug It Out with this guy because he’s too strong for me, so I have to figure out another way same way: Ali did with Foreman in Zaire.
I got to make him shoot his load.
I got to make him Tire himself out.
So what he did with McVeigh was he just kept targeting the eyes he kept moving and kept moving McVeigh would trap him, but he kept moving and he thought, even if I make him move an extra two or three steps.
I’M still gon na Tire him and force him to reset and and fight gets down to these incremental points where you’re on the ropes and this guy’s hitting you with everything and you’re thinking.
If I can just do one thing that would help me out one thing and you know maybe if I can just get his arm off me, move two or three steps to my left.
Then he’s got to turn and move more to catch up with me and then, as he’s coming in I’ll catch him with a jab and a right hand to the eye – and I haven’t won this round, but it’s having an effect.
He not only is his cut.
Worse but his eyes, starting to swell and you get near 38 39 40 rounds both of mcvay’s eyes are swelling.
So at that point, Jeanette, no, it’s 40 rounds.
It’S two hours of fighting Jeanette knows that you know he he’s having trouble seeing now and within the next several rounds.
He won’t be able to see at all he’ll be blind and he can’t fight blind.
He can’t just stand there and keep taking punches like that.
So that the papers described it as a clash of styles and that’s exactly what it was, because you had Jeanette Lewis’s, superb defensive master, who, who was moving all around using angles, trying to dance away, trying to get McVeigh to Lunge, to reach, to open himself up To get countered and and um Jeanette was countering him quite a bit, but McVeigh took the shots to the body into his chin.
Very well and uh.
You know it.
Just uh McVeigh was smart because from the beginning he targeted Jeanette’s body.
He knew Jeanette was a dancer.
Internet was going to a great defensive fighter, was going to keep moving and he thought I wanted to get him to stick in one place.
So, by doing so, by doing he did that by hammering him to the body continually over and over and over and Jeanette’s legs were going on.
I mean how much more could Jeanette take and when he knocked him down, he would flatten him and they could not believe the audience would literally gasp, who think well Jeanette’s not getting up from this.
But somehow he grabbed the ropes and he’d pull himself up and shake his legs to get some life back in his legs.
Um McVeigh landed some incredibly vicious shots to Jeanette’s.
Chin Jeanette took them.
He went down from some of them and he also slipped some of them, but the ones that got him really shook him.
They said his entire body shook like he had a shiver, and you know he.
The only thing in jeannette’s favor at that point was the fact that his counter punching was quick and accurate.
He did not miss, he would always Target mcvay’s eyes and it worked.
I mean you know you get by the 39th 40th round, one in mcvay’s eyes.
I think his left eye was completely shut.
His mouth had shredded now this is an interesting point.
Fighters didn’t wear mouthpieces back then mouthpieces came in.
You know six, seven years later with Ted kid Lewis, the fighter from Britain who was the world welterweight champ.
He was the one that wore him out these first time ever before they ever done that against Freddie, Welsh and Welsh’s Corner complained, you’re not allowed to that’s an unfair Advantage, so we had to take it out, but later on became customary.
So you know he’s not only getting beaten McVeigh in the face and in the eyes, but his lips are shredded.
You know and they’re losing teeth and none of the papers offered any accounts of 38 knockdowns as have been claimed before.
It’S inconceivable that a fight would have 38 knockdowns and either fight.
It would survive over 40 rounds.
That just wouldn’t happen.
It was just an embellishment and ironically, of course, this fight made no embellishment or needed no embellishment.
The other thing too, as I mentioned earlier, was a lot of times.
Jeanette would get dropped and he’s trying to beat the count and the counts.
Eight, you know seven eight and he just lifted his top half he’s moving slowly he’s not going to make the count and then the bell rings, and that’s just a fluke of luck.
That happened to him four or five times where he wasn’t going to make the count he couldn’t get up and then his Corner comes and drags him up and uses water puts ice on his testicles, smelling, salts and revived.
Revives him for uh for the next round, and then you get into the 40th round and 41st round and with you know, Miss Bay is still going.
Mcveigh is still going full kill against him.
You know he’s still throwing punches, but now he’s missing a lot and he’s not missing a lot, because he’s punching wildly he’s missing a lot because he can’t see and because these guys were so tired, what they would do is their Corners would would blow into balloons.
Inflate a balloon and then in between rounds, put the thing in their mouth and give them oxygen that way and that helped pump them up and uh both these guys.
You know we’re reeling through the first 42.
43 44 45 rounds, they’re both in there.
How? How I mean the question is how the Jeanette make it through, because you would think if you can’t beat the count and the bell saves you and your Corner’s got to drag you there.
You know back to your corner your corner and have to drag you there and they’re, giving you pouring water on you ice on your testicles.
If you smelling salts and you come out, you still hurt.
It’S still only going to take a couple shots to put you away for good, but somehow he managed to take them.
He managed to slip them.
He managed to block them to Parry them to grab on to uh McVeigh anyway, good he was just fighting for he was just fighting for survival.
You just think I just don’t want to lose.
I don’t want to get knocked out and then, as the fight goes into the 42nd, 43rd 44 mcvay’s other eyes right eye swelling down, and now you got a guy like this and you can’t see so he comes out for the 45th.
You know from rounds 1 to 40, it’s Sam McVay.
You would give him a 40 round to nothing a lead and then from 41 to 48.
It’S all Jeannette because from 41 on he can’t see like they simply can’t see out of his eyes and he’s doing his best.
You know he’s got slits where his eyes are, but as they close for Good in the next several rounds, he’s just a Sitting Duck and Jeanette now doesn’t have to move around.
Jeannette can stand directly in front of him and just Hammer him to the face.
He’S pounding him to the face and he keeps pounding to the face for the first round: 42nd.
43Rd.
44Th.
45Th.
You know and now McVeigh is exhausted.
You know he went all out for 40 rounds for two hours and for the last five rounds, he’s taking nothing but a beating to his face and plus the body punches, have added up 46 round 47th round and the 48th round.
You know Jeanette did a smart thing.
He would.
He would alternate he’d hit him in his belly.
You know bring his arms down and then pound them to the face, but to make sure the guard against McVeigh throwing a wild shot lunging at him.
He just kept moving from side to side while he was doing it and near the end of the 48th round.
Mcveigh’S hands are down, he just can’t.
I don’t know why direct him to stop it, but he’s blocking every shot with his face and after the 48th round McVeigh goes to his corner and he says I’m done I I you know they said no, no, you can go on.
He said I can’t.
I can’t see him.
I I literally can’t see a single thing.
I don’t know where he is you’re talking to me and I don’t know where you’re standing and his eyes are shut.
His nose is busted, and that was it.
You know he walks over he’s.
Guided over to Jeanette’s corner – and he says I quit – I quit Joe, you win and it was a great fight um.
It was a business thing because there was no enmity between them.
They generally liked each other and there’s only Langford who didn’t like Johnson and the thing with Jeanette was, of course everyone loved Joe Jeanette, so I’m sure Janette.
You know the rumors were that he gave him some the prize money.
I wouldn’t doubt it.
Uh Jeanette was loved by everyone and when I say that I mean Jeanette, originally, he was ostracized by his family and by his wife’s family because he married a white woman.
But in time both families became close because everyone loved Joe Jeanette black people, white people, whoever you were skin color religion, nothing mattered.
Joe Jeanette was a classy guy that was well loved by everyone and he did well during his career.
He did well after his career and he would help people out white or black didn’t matter what your religion was, especially during the Depression when people had a hard time and he he was running a gym full time and had a Taxi Limousine Service.
He was happy to give people money, he didn’t lend it to them.
He gave it to them.
He helped everyone out and white or black, and everyone just fell in love with him.
So you won’t find anyone that had anything bad to say about him: McVay, uh.
Never really got paid much during his career and when he died he was still an active fighter in his late 30s, but he was penniless, which is like Jack Johnson had to pay for his burial in New York and and um his uh headstone.
There was a running battle between Sam McVeigh and Sam Langford.
They were friends, but every time they saw each other they’d give each other a key.
Now this it’s hard to explain this.
Without it wasn’t a bigoted thing.
Both men were black one’s Canadian, the other’s American, but Santa fe’s often been called the ugliest man in boxing history.
I don’t think so.
What do I know? I’M not a good looking guy, but but um that was a joke between McVeigh and Langford and Langford was called an ugly guy.
So because – and a lot of that I think, was built into the racism of the day, because when you see cartoons and caricatures of them with big huge thick lips, I mean it’s all viciously, bigoted in races.
You know exaggerated features and um Langford would always look at him and say no, no Sam.
You keep that key.
You know that belongs to you.
That key was made for you.
I may be ugly, but you hit every branch on the Ugly Tree on the way down to the ground.
You even hit branches that weren’t there, so this was an ongoing joke between the two, although they liked each other.
You know and Langford liked everyone that he thought he only had a problem with Jack Johnson, because Johnson agreed to fight Langford after their after he beat Tommy Burns.
He has signed a contract contracts meant nothing to Johnson.
He was going to fight him at the National Sports Center in uh, London, England, and he skipped out on it and uh Langford, never forgave him for that.
Um Jeanette went on fighting for a bit more and he was never given a shot at the title.
He deserved that, but this was 1909 Johnson won the World Language title the year before and he drew the cover line because he knew who the best fight is in the world were African-American and African Canadian.
So he he’d already beaten McVeigh.
He fought Jeanette and he’d lost to him, but he’d also beaten him.
He didn’t want to take a chance with a tune and there’s a revisionist history about when he fought Sam Langford people say well.
You know, Langford knocked him down.
Langford didn’t knock Johnson down Johnson knocked him down about five six times.
Langford’S manager, Joe Woodman, said that he knocked him down years later to save face, but this was only 9 for his 20th Pro fight.
It was Johnson’s, I think, 75th Pro fight, but Johnson could still see how good Langford was going to be and just stopped him for thereafter, though, he did beat him um.
As I said, Jeanette lived a long time.
He died in 1958.
Two years before I was born and he he um okay Alistair.
This was the show you recommended the Jeanette help Braddock trained for Joe Lewis, no um.
If so, that shows how relevant modern style was.
That was actually in the movie I was in.
I was there Cinderella Man, they show that Ron.
Canada plays Joe Jeanette, but the person who trained two people trained him uh Jim Braddock one was Sully Seaman, who was the former featherweight champion of the world and he trained him and also um Tommy loughran, who who had beaten um uh? Oh okay, I’m presuming you met train Braddock for Max bear.
You said Joe Lewis.
Well, these guys trained him for Max bear to win the title.
Um and I think Whitey bimstein was one of the guys who helped train Braddock for Joe Lewis, but but it didn’t make a difference.
I mean Braddock knocked Lewis down in the first round, but Braddock was arthritic, but even so that Joe Lewis was the he was.
The greatest fighter pound for pound that ever lived and so Braddock and baron, Sharkey and schmelling, could have been in the other corner.
He would have knocked them all out that night.
No one beats Joe Lewis on on a good night when Lewis is at his best.
Like in the second smelling fight or in the Braddock fight, no one beats Joe Lewis.
No one in the history of boxing going back 300 years could be Joe Lewis, that’s how good he was, and so what surprised me out there is when I watched Jeanette fight, uh Sam Langford, how Jeanette’s using the exterior of the Rings using the ring perimeter and He’S jabbing and he’s making he’s making Langford lunge at him with right hands now Langford later shortened, it up um and thank you and you’re very welcome and Langford learned to shorten up the shots, and so he could catch up to Jeanette.
Excuse me later on Jeanette, but Aleister you bring up a good point.
Jeanette was a modern fighter.
In the sense he was very smart.
He was always thinking, and you know when you watch broadcaster fights today, they’ll say well, he’s already got him thinking and if he’s thinking he’s already beat, that’s not true, Ali was thinking against form it.
I you know, I can’t dance against him.
He’S too good at cutting your ring off and I’ll be exhausted.
There’S got to be another way.
I can beat him and Jeanette would look at each fighter whether it was Sam McVay, whether it was Sam Langford, whoever he fought and think to himself before the fight and during the fight.
You know there can’t just be one way to beat this man.
I got to be able: there’s got to be two three four ways to beat him and you can’t really decide on which, until you see how the other man’s gon na fight you and so Jeanette knew with the way McVeigh fought just barging in straight ahead and With his power, I can’t square up against him.
He’S too strong.
I have to get away from him.
I got ta, keep hitting him to the body, it won’t have an effect, and for a long time, and by the time it does have an effect.
I may not be around still so I got ta somehow.
How can I stop him from Landing these Sledgehammer shots go after his eyes.
If I can take away his eyesight, then you know his.
His accuracy goes down to nothing and I get breather, and then I start to start the first time listing ever got caught.
You know angel said, go after it go after the cut except Muhammad go after it and he targeted the cut and he opened it up and he opened it up more and that’s what the fighter does and the minute mcveigh’s eye starts to close one of his Eyes in the fifth or sixth round, not close, but it’s swelling and 10th 12th 15th round it’s progressively swelling and he’s going great, so he’s just you know, out of the fact is equilibrium, so I got to go after it more and now he’s thinking now I Got ta Target the other eye and it shows you how great McVeigh was to have one eye by fifth.
Sixth, seventh, eighth round closed and the other eye is still swelling he’s still coming at him and beating the life of Jeanette.
You know you’re talking fifth sixth round and he’s still another 35 rounds of punishment.
Jeanette’S got to take before we can turn the fight the tide of the fight in its favor.
Even with one good eye, McVay was still able to dish out 35 rounds of phenomenal body and head punishment and Jeanette didn’t seem to show the after effects of it for the rest of his life.
As I said, you know he died in 1958 July, 2nd two years before I was born and uh.
I know Angela Dundee and Chris Dundee told me wonderful stories uh about him and unfortunately, McVay died at a young age from pneumonia and uh.
He you know back then, today, Fighters, if you know like in a way the monster, hurt his hand supposed to fight Stephen Fulton, so he’s gon na have to take six months eight months, whatever off, let the hand heal, but he’s got enough money behind him.
He can afford to do that and get the medical help he needs and live comfortably back.
Then Fighters couldn’t do that.
If he’s in fight you didn’t eat, so McVeigh was Indigent.
At times he was poor living on people’s couches.
You know living outside a homeless person because if he wasn’t getting paid, he had no money on him and no one ever taught these guys.
Not not.
I’M not, and I’m not saying African-American Fighters any Fighters any athletes.
There was never one because so many of them came from you know not just broken homes but poor homes.
So no, no one ever said this is what you do.
You take.
This amount to live – and you put this in an annuity – or you do this with this this.
So when your career, it’s over, you still have money, one of the few who did that was Lennox Lewis, who got a banker and was worked with this banker.
And now Linux has a lot of money because he was smart to save his money and not waste.
It and stuff austere McVay was so powerful.
I read that he challenged Willard immediately after he beat Johnson and well.
It declined.
I’M not sure if McVeigh is Asia at the time, but I think a prime McVeigh takes that easily yeah.
I I agree with you.
I think McVeigh would have taken Willard out in two or three rounds.
I don’t think it would have lasted that long um.
I know that the fight didn’t happen because at that point, when will it won there was this it’s funny to call the gentleman’s agreement, which is the figure it’s week.
These guys are a gentleman and these people um we’re not going to let another African-American man um go after the world heavyweight title and McVeigh was a good guy.
He was friendly to everyone.
He never hurt anyone.
You know this was a God-fearing man and he never ended up drunk going after people or smoking or whatever it’s just a great fighter, and there was no way they were going to allow Willard to beat him with regards to Willard and Jack Johnson Jack Johnson was 37 and he wasn’t allowed to train properly, he’d, been hounded by authorities from Mexico in the United States and still went 26 rounds in 104 degree heat also because the Johnsons, because of Willard’s size and the heat Johnson, who was a classic counter, puncher, had to lead Which he didn’t like to do, and so by Leading he used more of his energy.
He was exhausted and but he was legitimately knocked out, but you’re right McVeigh was just a heartbreaking story, as was Jeanette and Sam Langford all and Harry Wills.
All of them could have been the heavyweight champion of the world.
The only thing they needed was a chance and the white people back then uh were bigoted and vicious and racist – and you know by that time you know it just wasn’t going to happen and by the time they were allowed, African-American African Canadian Fighters for a lot Of the challenge for titles, it was almost too late because even with Joe Lewis, the mob was firmly in control, and so they lost a lot of their money to the Mob.
Guys, like Ike Williams, ended up with nothing, not a Cent, and he was fighting for 80 grand to fight.
You know same with Johnny Saxton same with a lot of guys same with Lewis, although Lewis overspent his money, um anyways.
That’S a great story today suggested by Alistair, I’m glad you joined the solster um.
If you have any suggestions out there for other fights you’d like me to discuss from boxing’s glorious past, please let me know or let Eric know and please go to my sub stack page Lou, Eisen, uh, Dot, substat.
com and I’m in the middle of a four-part five-part Series about the history of the mafia and organized organized organized crimes control over boxing plus, I just posted a a long article on the great Sam Langford.
My name is Lou Eisen thanks for watching ring talk, alster! Thank you.
As always, it’s lovely to talk to you and please come back next week.
Tell your friends and we’ll see you again soon enjoy the rest of your weekend, and summer is going to be here soon.
I’M Lou Eisen enjoy the rest of your day.
Bye, bye,
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