AIR DATE:
EPISODE: Episode 1
Join us in this special episode of Ring Talk with Lou Eisen as we sit down with the multi-talented Adam J. Pollack, a true aficionado of the sweet science. Not only is Pollack a renowned boxing historian, but he is also a referee, judge, and publisher with his own law firm. Despite his numerous roles, he still finds time to immerse himself in the world of boxing and share his knowledge with enthusiasts.
Pollack’s passion for boxing history began at a young age, fueled by his fascination with old-time fights on video. Unsatisfied with the information available in existing books, he took it upon himself to dive deep into primary sources, unearthing the most detailed and accurate accounts of historical bouts.
In 2006, Pollack published his first biography, shedding light on the life of the first gloved heavyweight champion, John L. Sullivan. Since then, he has continued his journey through boxing’s rich history, chronicling the ring exploits of champions such as James J. Corbett, Bob Fitzsimmons, James J. Jeffries, Marvin Hart, Tommy Burns, and Jack Johnson, among others. His acclaimed “In the Ring With” series has earned rave reviews for its meticulous research and vivid storytelling.
Throughout the episode, Pollack shares his insights into the early boxing pioneers, marveling at their endurance, toughness, and skill. His writing not only provides readers with a comprehensive understanding of these legendary fighters but also challenges conventional perceptions and sheds new light on their careers.
Beyond the ring, Pollack’s day job takes him to the courtroom as a defense attorney, demonstrating his dedication to justice both inside and outside the squared circle.
Don’t miss this opportunity to explore the rich history of boxing with Adam J. Pollack on Ring Talk with Lou Eisen. Like, comment, and share this video to celebrate the legacy of these boxing pioneers.
Transcribed
[, Music, ] everything, [ Music, ] hi, I’m Lou Eisen welcome to ring talk uh.
Today we have a fantastic show for you.
We have a guest.
I’Ve been waiting a long time, one of my heroes in the sport of boxing Adam J Pollock.
The J stands for just brilliant, because that’s absolutely what he is he’s a member of the boxing writers, association of America.
You should be some writers, association of America he’s one of the top boxing referees and judges in the entire sport he’s a former coach and he’s an attorney living in Iowa City Iowa, and I love attorneys all my bro.
All my cousins and relatives are attorneys.
Adam was a guest lecturer on the career of John L Sullivan for the White Hall lectures series at the Flagler Museum in Florida, Mr Flagler, by the way, was part of Standard Oil 100 years before and also an interviewee in the documentary film on James J Corbett.
The gentleman prize fighter, which was never waited narrated, excuse me by Liam Neeson and Adam’s book on James J Carver, is the best book ever written on James J Corbett.
In fact, Adam’s book on everything Champion is the best book ever written on that champion.
Adam has written and published in the ring with John L salvin in the ring with James J Corbett adopted Simmons Fitzsimmons book brought me to tears and I was really upset when it ended.
I wasn’t ready to let go.
It was a friend.
It was more than a book and in the ring with James J Jeffries in the ring with Marvin Hart.
No one knows anything about Marvin Hart, but when you read Adam’s book, you’ll know more than anyone else, except Adam, of course, in the ring with Tommy Burns, and this is an interesting point.
Canadians almost know nothing about Tommy Burns, you know, and here’s Adam a brilliant.
A genius writer and boxing historian, who went to look up Tommy Burns, and this is an unbelievably brilliant book and that’s a cosmetic Thunder statement uh in the ring, was in part one the rise and in the ring with Jack Johnson part.
Two, the rain black man versus the world – and I mean this book – will just it’ll, take your breath away and his most recent book, which Thomas Houser raved about.
In fact, Thomas Hauser who’s written about Muhammad Ali Raves about all of Adam’s work, is Jack in the ring of Jack Dempsey.
Part one the making of a champion and it’s available at Barnes and Noble amazon.
com and win by KO Publications on their website, which he owns and he’s published.
Many other fantastic authors and it’s a thrill and a privilege.
It’S an extreme privilege to welcome to the show Adam J Pollock Adam great, to have you here.
Thank you so much for having me, and that was uh very kind and over generous introduction.
Well, thank you.
I don’t think so for a person as brilliant as you you’re, incredibly modest, and I I find that and and a lot of people that I that I’ve met that are incredibly brilliant Dempsey and I never met the MC courts.
But I mean people like yourself.
You just have this streak of modesty, and I guess you just keep your head down and keep writing.
What was it in you originally when you started writing about we’re going to get to the Dempsey book in a second? But when you started writing about Dempsey and all these Champions, what was it inside you that made you do it? Was it you weren’t satisfied with the information or the books that were out currently at that time? Yeah, I think that’s a good way to say it is.
I felt like uh.
There was more out there to be had, and you know what what had been done previously could be improved upon and – and I I set out to do it and people seem to like the books, and so I kept doing it well more than liking the books.
I mean people adored the books, I mean your writing is similar to that of David McCullough and Michael bets loss and Doris Kearns good one.
I mean your words are definitive once you write about them.
No one else can write about them because there’s they can’t do it as well as you can with Dempsey the question I’ve been waiting all week to ask you Adam, is what is it about Dempsey that makes them such an enduring character? Even today, it hasn’t held a title since 26 97 years ago and yet he’s still a global phenomenon he’s still known throughout the world.
People still love the name, he’s still Americana, he’s still part of world history, Sports industry, American history.
What makes them so endearing? I guess you’d have to read the books to figure that one out um.
You know there was a lot of things that helped Dempsey um.
I mean think of a young Mike Tyson.
How that reinvigorated a lot of uh interest in boxing a few, if you hearken back to the 80s, when Mike Tyson came out it just there’s a huge boost of energy to the sport for many years as a result of him and Dempsey was like Mike Tyson Before Mike Tyson, he was this young, you know uh killer, you know just came out to fight blasted a lot of guys out really quickly and and just was ferocious and he reinvigorated interest in the sport, and you know he kind of coalesced at a time when Boxing was getting bigger and bigger, and getting more pressed coverage.
Um the gates started, getting bigger and bigger, he was the first Million Dollar Payday, you know, put first million dollar gain, Etc.
So you know it just it just captured the Public’s imagination, one of its biggest fights before we won.
The title was the 18 second demolition of Fred Fulton.
Is there any film that exists prior to the Willard fight of Dempsey in the ring? You know? None! That’S been found that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist somewhere, but just nobody knows where it is.
I I I’m pretty sure the Fulton fight was filmed um.
The question is what happened to the films? Obviously, it weren’t very long right, um, I’m pretty sure some of the films were shown to uh the military members of the military.
Obviously also, what would hurt back then was uh the nitrate films disintegrated very badly.
They weren’t preserved very well also the um.
The Interstate Commerce Act that prevented the interstate transportation of fight films, helped limit their Pro proliferation.
Although people tended to violate that law, uh and increasingly with impunity as Dempsey’s fights became more and more famous and generating more income, it was just too much money to turn down, so they started violating the law and transporting them anyway and yeah.
I know with Jack Johnson they they that rule came in because of Johnson.
But when I spoke to Steve Locke, whom you knew the liquid Steve lot, he said the Johnson Burns fight and said there there is.
He saw the film where Burns is actually knocked at a campus, but it was edited out.
They got rid of it, they didn’t want people to see it and he said because of that it was just very difficult.
You know after that, as he was saying to get films anywhere throughout the United States.
Although people were doing it um.
Would you say it’s fair to say that Dempsey and Babe Ruth were the reason for the big money in the 1920s or was it dense himself? Um well, Dempsey, Dempsey, made Babe Ruth look like a popper uh.
The amount of money made was phenomenal.
It was just unheard of uh.
You know, um Dempsey was making more on one fight than Babe Ruth made in several years of playing baseball um.
It’S not even close so um, you know the 1920s was a.
You know a boom in general, but you know I don’t.
I don’t think you could put that many rear ends and seats.
You know in any other sport at one time for the kind of prices that they were charging and also generate.
The kind of you know Revenue they were with the films unless you’re, just a phenomenal star, and so as big as Babe Ruth was.
The truth is, Dempsey was bigger um.
One thing I do want to allude to is the debt, the Johnson Burns fight films, that fight was filmed in its entirety.
I do believe – and I think that the filming worked on in their entirety initially um.
There are some claims that the the file was edited.
I, I guess, that’s possible, but I think more likely the film’s disintegrated over the years or weren’t, or they played certain parts of the film so many times that they, you know they disintegrated and so that you know certain parts of the films just don’t exist anymore.
Right, I don’t know that they, you know intentionally edit edited those parts out.
I I I have some doubts about that.
Okay, I’m just repeating what Steve Steve lot was saying, but yeah you could never.
I I would, if they, you know, I’d, love, to see the complete film, but as you’re saying it’s probably a lot of it because of it was it was down to nitrate.
It disappeared so hard to find a complete copy of the film it’s frustrating at times.
When you’re watching it that you’re only getting pieces of rounds rather than each round full yeah, I mean that’s a sad, probably it’s wonderful that we can still look at fights from 1908 and even even you know, partial rounds or you know selections.
It’S still the flavor of the strengths and weaknesses of the various Fighters, so it’s wonderful, but unfortunately they didn’t preserve uh very well and and nitrate film was also very flammable, as well a lot of them burn now.
Would you say, Dempsey made the times of the times made Dempsey? I mean it’s a little a bit of both right.
If he wasn’t phenomenally talented um, I don’t think he would have been as as big as he was.
I think boxing was craving someone like him to some degree as well, but you know he people, I mean, let’s look at it this way like when he when he drilled Willard – and you know it was one of the most brutal things anyone had ever seen and Willard was highly respected because he had beaten the great Jack Johnson.
You know he was You Know: Jack Johnson was 230 pounds Lightning Fast.
Tremendous skills pounded on Willard for 20 rounds and and Willard never went down.
So Willard was seen as a you know: Iron Man huge guy, six six, you know 235 240 pounds he’s a big, dude and Dempsey just went through him like nothing, so it just it just made people go, oh my God, and it got.
You know garnered a lot of interest in his career.
What’S the beating that Willard took as boxing’s Premier story and is that the worst beating you’ve ever seen of fighter tape, you think in the history of film fighting, including uh, the second Lewis Schmeling um yeah? That’S always really hard to say: I’ve seen a lot of beatings.
Over the years, um there’s been, there’s been a lot of brutal fights.
You know he probably suffered less damage in three rounds from damson and then some guys suffer in you know 12 or 15 rounds.
Um and you know that maybe they don’t get knocked out or they get knocked out late, but just the the overall cumulative damage that they suffer and round after round after round does more to destroy their their minds or brains their careers.
So it’s hard foreign so like I’ll tell you one of the most brutal fights I ever saw was Riddick Bowe versus Andrew golotta yeah, particularly the second fight.
It was such a brutal brutal.
I don’t think either one of them were ever the same again.
You know no, no, absolutely and certainly having metpo it affected him mentally.
After the fight I mean that was a vicious beating, yeah um, with with um Willard.
There was a book that came out on Willard in the last couple years and it purported to show a showed a photograph of a pristine face and said this is what he really looked like, but after the fight.
But when I did Cinderella Man, I was privileged.
Angela Dundee introduced me to Bud shelburn and he sat fourth row with his father was head of Paramount films.
So he was there and – and he said you, you wouldn’t recognize – will it that his nose was broken, teeth were knocked out.
He said people were at ringside, we’re reaching into the ring to grab the teeth that Willard had lost, and you know there was a point where his father put his hand over Bud’s face because he was saying it was just he’d, never seen a human.
Take a beating like that it was like he’d, been attacked by a gang.
Well, I mean Dempsey did pulverize him very badly.
I mean dropped him seven times in the first round, but Willard got up and continued and fought two more rounds and actually did okay.
I mean he was still getting pounded on, but he actually nailed Dempsey a few good ones here and there and he was trying his best um.
I think they over blew how badly he was hurt.
In that fight I mean he was very badly hurt, but I you know boxing: history has a way of getting more and more colorful and fanciful.
As time goes on right, even Jess Willard himself was like look.
I wasn’t really that badly hurt.
I’M fine.
You know.
I I you know, I’m good you know, and but there were people who said yes.
Definitely he got some teeth knocked out because back then they didn’t really wear the kind of mouthpieces we wear.
Today I mean they may not have worked mouthpieces at all, let alone any mouthpiece, not until Ted kid Lewis yeah.
So so you know, did he get some teeth knocked out? There’S there’s verification in the newspaper reports that, yes, he did with his face.
You know crushed and broken bones and broken ribs the way they say.
I don’t think so.
Now, there’s there’s no real evidence of that.
Um was his face.
You know pulpy and a bit bloodied up.
Yes, I mean he’s getting hit by you, know a massive puncher who’s wearing you know five or six ounce gloves and getting just teed off on.
So you know these things happen, but you know it wasn’t anything that, like you know, he needed reconstructive surgery for or anything like that.
Why do you think Jack Dale currents is manager by the way when did Kearns and Dempsey when and where did they hook up? It appears to be somewhere in 1917.
.
I’D say, you know, early to mid 1917 um is when Kearns uh and he started working together.
I think Kearns loaned him some money and basically said hey.
I think you’ve got some potential you need to.
You know you need to work on some of the things you know polish up, your offense work on some of your defense, but I think you got real raw potential and you know let’s work together and eventually they did and before him he had a sketchy guy.
In New York, John, the Barbara Riesling, who tried to set him up with a fight with Sam Langford – and you tell us about that, how could Dempsey skipped out on that? Well, you know that’s another interesting thing, I’m not so sure.
That’S true: um, okay, um Dempsey claimed it in his final autobiography, but he never claimed it before that and the the OtterBox, the autobiographies.
He did you know years earlier, didn’t mention Langford um.
He he mentioned other guys and in fact even even the other guys.
You mentioned, may not have been the true guys that he was considering uh being put in with um.
If you look at the actual primary source newspaper reports of who riesler was looking to put him in with it’s not like, it’s not Langford, it was guys.
Like Frank, Moran and um, Ed gunboat Smith and actually the the the most likely uh guy um, well you’ll read my book, yes, absolutely and and um.
I look forward to reading that.
You know, but what you’re saying you bring up a very good point that that um, it’s lost you for a sec here in the screen, but um Dempsey.
I mean boxing.
That happens all the time where things get embellished, so it’s frustrating sometimes because you’re not sure what the actual truth is, which is what’s so great about your books.
Is that you, you know you’re able to clear it up and get the actual factual thing.
Oh, we got you back Adam okay, yeah.
So what you’re saying about about that? How how boxing gets embellished over the years um? I have to tell you a short quick story.
Um when I was at the hall of fame, I was in the lunchroom once with Angelo Dundee, my mentor and we’re walking out with Carmen basilio and Karen sees um, Emile, Griffith and and uh, and this says to him get out of the way.
Nancy boy and griffith takes a swing at the Celio and hits Angelo basilio takes a swing at Griffith and hits Angelo, and by the time we got outside the building, it was Griffith or basilio used the n-word.
These guys squared off and had a fight.
You know were fighting for 10 minutes.
It was like a four second thing, so I can well understand what you’re saying about the fact that you know things like that get embellished over time.
So it’s not even likely.
Then I guess that Langford was one of his potential opponents, but he said after that that was the guy that he feared was that just to why would he say something like that to us to swage his guilt at not fighting black Fighters, or is it just? He was just a kind person that way.
Yeah I mean yeah.
You can always speculate on what’s in a person’s mind, but you know obviously, at that point at Langford it was passed, he knew Dempsey knew, Langford was a great fighter and yeah Dempsey.
You know could sometimes be humble and self-effacing and back then it was a much more lauded quality to be humble and uh.
I could see Dempsey just saying something like that.
Like oh, you know, I was, I was afraid of Sam Langford, that you know because, like he, he was doing a tip line for to that night.
Four line foot I think at the Polo Grounds or Yankee Stadium.
He was the one that escorted him in, but he certainly saw a Langford fight.
Yeah yeah, you know well we’ll think say something about Sam Langford, as Sam Langford was very high on Dempsey as well during his career, usually when they interviewed Sam Langford about Dempsey.
He said very nice things about about Dempsey and he would say you know: Dempsey Dempsey’s, the best in the world he’ll beat anyone, and maybe that also may have influenced Dempsey and saying nice things about Langford years later, because Langford was very high on Dempsey.
Well, this brings up an interesting fact: the Harry Welch fight that never happened, Dempsey and you know, invited anyone feasted on taller Fighters and it really was Kerns that didn’t want to fight.
Do you think Dempsey would have gone through the fight against Wills? It’S hard to believe he would have had any fear of wills at that stage in Will’s, career or any state, because he did great against Hollow Fighters.
Well, that’s an internal debate about um and that you’re gon na have to read the book.
The two books on that uh, I’m working on the third now um.
If you read the books, you’re going to get a lot of different perspectives on who avoided who and why and what thwarted that fight and was Dempsey, afraid was Karen’s, afraid was record afraid.
Was it politics Etc? Was it economics there’s a lot to it? It’S it’s I’m gon na I don’t wan na spoil it, but there’s a you know: I’m gon na lay it all out the pros.
The cons, the arguments for against every argument – and I I just basically let the reader decide what what they think the truth is well.
There was a Canadian magazine in the 70s.
We could still have an article on Larry, Gaines and Gaines, apparently was brought in for a day or two to be a Spartan partner and Doc.
Kern said to him: if you were white uh, a drop dancing doll with you, which I I don’t believe for a second that he said but but um.
They said that you know guys like games and other black Fighters are kept away from Dempsey.
But I I just find it hard to believe because, unlike Sullivan who didn’t fight, it only fought white guys and there were great Fighters Peter Jackson, his time, Dempsey’s skill level wise was so far.
Wouldn’T you agree with so far above everyone else.
Well, that’s tough.
To say, do I think his skill level was so far above everyone else, not necessarily, but I think he had a certain brand of speed and explosive power that, even if he was less skilled than some of his opponents, it didn’t matter.
You know as soon as he hit him.
It was over right.
It’S like that old saying that gets credited to Tyson, but I was told that Lewis said it.
First, everyone’s got a plan until they get punched in the face.
I mean Dempsey, smart defensively, though, as well because after the schmelling for schmelon fight, he went to Lewis’s camp and showed him what he could do in certain situations I mean Dempsey had a brand a brand of skill set that was tailored for Effectiveness.
For him to be effective, given his talents and his style, you know he he may not been the most brilliant defensive specialist in the world, but he had a good brand of Defense.
He had forward, he had side outside footwork.
He had good head moments.
So I decide to have, you know, turns and dips and weaves to where, when people would hit him, they weren’t hitting him as effectively plus.
He had also had an Iron Jaw right, but back then it was more about Effectiveness, not about necessarily just point scoring.
It was about doing damage and and and we are you going to knock a guy out eventually and so like James J Jeffries, who also said look I you know, I get hit sure I get hit, but I make sure they don’t hit me in a place Where it’s going to get me, you know knock me down or not or stop me, so he knew how to get hit and roll and ride with punches, but then slide forward off of that and then come at his opponent and hit him hit him right back And he’d actually use them, throwing a punch as a way to open themselves up for his counter-attack as he’s aggressively moving forward, and that’s something that also Mike Tyson was very good at.
He was a specialist at it, and people appreciated it and that’s a lost art in today’s boxing for a lot of Fighters.
Yep and also Marciano Marciano was great at it.
Joe Frazier was great at it, so you know the less an impact of the punch by rolling with the punch.
Yes, there’s some Fighters recently, though, like James Tony and Bud Crawford, who are almost like a throwback to that era in terms of their defensive skill yeah.
I mean you know, look at every every artist got great Fighters that you know uh.
We can debate about whether they were better but back then or they’re better now, but the truth is every era’s got some great Fighters that there’s some great fighters from yesterday could fight today and there’s some great Fighters today.
That could fight in yesteryear and you just have to adapt to the different conditions, but great Fighters are great Fighters and they find ways to win with Dempsey.
I’Ve read so many times the name Rachel Solomon has come up.
That was his paternal grandmother.
Is that correct? I don’t know: oh okay, it said he had Jewish blood in him that his father’s mother or grandmother was Rachel Solomon, but I’ve never seen any proof of that.
I’Ve just heard the name uh.
The name mentioned.
No, I’m not aware of that.
Oh okay.
As far as I’m aware, General Sullivan was Irish of Irish ancestry.
As far as I know, okay uh, like the original Jack Dempsey – oh well, you know so I mean who are we talking about? Are we talking Sullivan or are we talking about? Oh no.
No! We’Re talking about Jack Dempsey, oh Jack, Dempsey, um.
There was a rumor that he did, but I don’t know that that was ever proven.
Um.
I think Dempsey had uh more of the Irish European um.
He had a touch of of Native American as well on both sides um, but I’m not aware of anything that would demonstrate that any uh Jewish ancestry, okay um, would you say that Dempsey’s greatest victory was to fight with purple or to fight with uh Willard or Another fight, in other words, when you look back the most amazing comeback or not come back.
Excuse me fight is the most amazing Victory.
Would would it be the Willard because he was the underdog or to be purple because purple dropped him and then knocked him out of the ring people just finished at that time or another fight? Perhaps I mean I think it’s just this totality of work is.
Is you know he mowed down most of the top contenders in 1918 and you know, was destroying them and and people just admired and appreciated what he was doing because he’s fighting guys with 50 60 70.
You know Pro fights and stopping them in one or two rounds, so people you know couldn’t even believe their eyes and yeah Weller was a huge strong guy and even after, like several years off after the Dempsey fight, Willard came back and won some.
You know good fights and uh now proved that he was a pretty tough guy um and even even in losses you know showed he was a real fighter um.
So that was a big fight.
I mean at the time the carpontier fight was huge, Carpentier sure you know, look it uh.
Nowadays, we we talk about how great a fighter is and then they go and lose a fight, and we talk about.
Oh, they were overrated.
They were nothing.
You know just because you lose a fight, doesn’t mean you’re, not a really good Fighter.
Um carpontier was a really good fighter.
He was very well respected and you know before the fight.
A lot of people thought he had a legitimate chance of beating Dempsey, just because Dempsey mowed through him doesn’t mean he wasn’t a heck of a fighter.
So you know the the right hands that in hooks that carponte hit Dempsey with them in the second round nine times out of ten in his career, carpontes would have scored a knockout.
You know most of the guys he hit like that he dropped if he couldn’t drop.
Dempsey Dempsey had an Iron Jaw, but does that mean that you know Carpentier wasn’t a heck of a fighter? You know? No, you know it was that you, you don’t generate the first million dollar gate, because people think it’s a total mismatch.
Some people did, but people were very intrigued by the fight and Lewis was a great fighter and and carpanchi got there.
First then, the carpanche break his right hand on on Dempsey’s jaw.
Yes, he did so, but I don’t think that it would have changed the result, even if he hadn’t broken his hand.
Well, was it too Dempsey used to soak his hands in beef, brine and Juke Pine Tire gum and for his jaw just he did all these things.
That Fighters don’t do today to toughen his chin up and and toughen his skin up on his hands.
Yeah, I mean you know some of those things, maybe of a questionable Effectiveness, but you know yeah.
He did a lot of that kind of stuff uh.
But scholberg said that uh in the Willard fight is an address room, for he was only eight to ten years old, that’s his father, but he said Willard’s trainer was there and he said that Willard said uh trainer said that Dempsey’s wraps and gloves were closures.
They were fine and you see him entering the ring.
The photos of him with just the wraps.
Where was this just saying that his hands are plastered? Parrots Gil Clancy told me one time, that’s ridiculous, because he said if you had plaster of Paris, you couldn’t lift your hands and if you did and hit somebody you break every bone in your head.
Did this? Where did this come about? Was this this current trying to make money for that, or was it Willard looking to save face for such a bad, beating? Well, Willard’s, not even the one that came up with that claim it was.
It was made by some people that may not even seen the fight, but they just couldn’t believe you know they read stories about how badly Willard had been, you know beat up, and they couldn’t believe that he could only be you know, be stopped in three rounds And so you know they said well, he must have had loaded loaded gloves, but you know they didn’t stop and think about the fact that Dempsey was a explosive punch or a fast starter been mowing through the whole heavyweight division quickly and Willard.
Hadn’T fought in three years, so he probably wasn’t at his absolute sharpest and so Dempsey did what Dempsey does and the truth is.
Dempsey came into the ring without his gloves on he had his wraps on so everyone.
He was right there for everyone to examine his raps um.
There’S, there’s, there’s uh article prime minister’s articles that indicate that Dempsey’s raps were examined by Willard seconds.
Willard himself shook Dempsey’s wrapped hands in the, but you know so.
I think it’s.
This is a total myth.
Uh but people just sort of speculated like oh, he couldn’t have done that to Willard unless he had loaded raps, and so you know, and even Jimmy DeForest years later, his trainer said.
You know that yeah.
That loaded rap story is just total garbage.
If anything that would have made Dempsey’s hands heavier and that’s not what we were trying to do to beat Willer we weren’t trying to beat him with power.
We were trying to beat him with speed and and to weight his hands down with you know something heavy like plaster that would have been counterproductive.
So so that’s not something we would have ever.
You know thought of doing at all and we didn’t need to.
I have to tell you my father would go to the Canadian national exhibition in Toronto every year and in the 1960s Willard would come up every year and he’d be in a booth and he’d give a talk.
This is 63-64 and he would he would take.
My father spoke to him for like a 30 seconds, but he had a piece of barbed wire and he said this is what Dempsey had in his gloves and my father said, which really annoyed Willard.
I thought it was plaster of Paris and Willie didn’t like that.
He just turned away, and then years later, Jack, duck Kearns, say in Sports, Illustrated got paid to say that the gloves are in fact loaded because he needed the money yeah.
So you know, like you know, people say things for money all the time and and you know I don’t think, there’s any any proof of of that claim and I think Kearns had some sour grapes towards Dempsey um, which the books will go over.
One of the reasons why but uh you know back to your discussion of Dempsey’s great fights with ferpo um.
You know it was a phenomenal fight.
It was considered like the best fight of all time, at the time that Dempsey beat Furbo, because it was just an awesome War.
They just basically just went to town on each other slugging away with bombs, and it was just a Non-Stop slug, Fest and people just love the fight.
You know both of them down multiple times and it made Dempsey bigger than ever.
So you know, maybe that should be considered his greatest Victory.
I don’t know, but it was certainly his most exciting and it garnered him tremendous respect and anyone who suspected the Dempsey loaded his gloves didn’t believe it after that, because they saw what they did.
He did a huge you know strong, furpo, um and and even Jeff Willard after that fight, he said yeah.
Now I see how Dempsey did what he did to me, because basically he just witnessed Dempsey due to ferpo what he did to Willard.
In fact, Willard lasted longer than ferpo did purple got knocked out in you know.
The first minute of the second round Dempsey actually went through.
I’M sorry, Willard actually went three full rounds with Dempsey so that fight kind of showed well or something where he’s like yeah.
I get it now.
This guy is just you know, just an explosive fast starting guy, and he can’t you know he just he just can’t avoid him and he’s gon na hit you with bombs yeah.
I I that’s one of the great things about your book, because I did not know that Willard had said that about after the furfl fight.
One of the things that came out of the purple fight was the fact that purple said that he should have won, because Dempsey was out of the ring a few seconds and you’re supposed to get back into the ring uh under your own ability.
Without the help of whoever the writers at this point, push him back in was that rule in place at that time in boxing in New York so well, the facts are just disputed.
Um most of the writers said, Dempsey beat the 10 count um.
In fact, the films make it appear that he got in there like almost instantly like he was with, and a lot of the writers also said he got back within like four to five seconds.
It was like he went out and he just climbed right back on.
In so and there’s some people that try to make you know, look it there’s a lot of yellow, yellow journalism.
People like to make you know fanciful stories and good copy and try to create controversy that sells papers, but the vast majority of the writers said uh.
He got in back in the ring pretty quickly.
There was some debate about whether he had any assistance.
Some people said he had Aid.
Some people said he didn’t uh.
Some people said it was more like Dempsey, falling falling into the lapse of writers and writers.
Sort of putting their arms out and trying to like push him off of them because he’d right into their faces, and it’s more like an act of self-preservation but like the the fact is, thank you grabbing the ropes climbing back on through and getting back into.
The ring and and continuing on immediately pretty quickly, okay yeah, that that it’s interesting to me of the scenario of uh, the first Cooper alley, fight or clay fight, and everyone says you know: Cassius Clay had four minutes or half an hour to recover.
But I signed into a few of Henry Cooper.
He said he got an extra 15 seconds, maybe 20 at the most so people, you know over time.
It’S he had a half an hour.
He had a week and a half in the Bahamas, but it’s it’s Cooper said no.
He said Muhammad had 10 15 seconds.
That was the difference that that’s all it took.
So you know as you’re saying the Seattle journalism that um uh.
You know that keeps popping up.
One thing I wondered about Dempsey is in looking back at the mobs control of boxing.
They didn’t really get into it before his carpanche fight, because the money wasn’t worth it to them, but only the killer, maddened.
Somebody three on really controlled boxing and how did Dempsey circumvent? That was that through currents, because Kearns was definitely connected with the mob, because you could see that with his when he had Mickey Walker and Archie Moore, how did Dempsey was he able to go out on his own and not be affected by them? Or was he affected by them? I’M not aware of any uh Mob, uh uh affiliation in his career at all uh.
I’M, not I’ve not seen any primary source evidence uh for it.
Okay, I’ve read that Capone came to him, but those stories are apocryphal.
I mean Capone came and offered to fix the fight for him and with tiny and Capone this and and that, but there’s no real evidence.
I guess, apparently the Philly gangster was the one who got to fight along with uh Russell pelts, told me um Taylor.
I think it was: is it Herman Taylor, the promoter from Philly that helped move the fight to Philly from New York, the the tiny fight, because he wouldn’t fight Wills, so they had the New York State athletic commission would let him fight there? Okay well now you’re getting in on my third book, which hasn’t been published yet but uh.
That’S all going to be discussed in the third book yeah.
So boo, boo Hoff was a character in uh [, Music ].
It was somewhat perhaps involved in the first Dempsey tunny fight and to be continued there yeah there there’s.
There was a little controversy over that and that’s going to be discussed in the third book.
Um that it was more vis-a-vis honey than Dempsey was, was Hoff’s involvement in the fight right that half allegedly had a contract with Tony and they’re wind up being some litigation and and some controversy in the newspapers over that and lots of money.
Well there.
That was the dispute video on the money right.
Do I think what will um? Let me get at him back.
I think one of the things we can do is mention that the phone the extent is thrown off sleep mode um.
That would be good, but one.
What I heard was the fact that that um yeah your phone goes on sleep mode.
I think sorry about what’s happening or something okay, it just says here your phone’s going on sleep mode, so I’m not sure uh uh yeah, so I mean who knows.
I know Roger Khan wrote that the mob was involved, but Bert sugar said to me.
That’S completely false: the fight was on the level and Dancy just didn’t listen.
So this brings up the other question which will be in your third book.
Dempsey said that if he had gone to the neutral Corner in the second fight, the battle of the Long Count immediately that he believes Tommy would have beaten a cow.
Was that him being modest? Or did he really it’s hard to believe? He really believed that.
Oh, that was the big debate and you know it helped make Dempsey more of a legend, because people thought he got robbed and a lot of the people.
The big Dempsey’s fans were like yeah, you know.
If there hadn’t been a long count, Dempsey would have knocked him out, finished him off and he would have regained a championship and it helped.
You know, create some Dempsey, lore and aura.
You know, and and sometimes when people think you’ve been wronged in some way.
You can kind of write off under the sunset even bigger than you were before sort of like you know, a lot of people thought George Foreman deserved to beat chin and Briggs and sort of that’s his last fight and he kind of rode off under the sunset With a lot of people on his side feeling that he should have still been champion and got robbed or whatever, but I mean the truth is: do I really think he was going to stop Tony? Even if you know the county, dude four or five seconds lasts.
Uh, no, I don’t not be not based on what I’ve seen on the films and, in fact there again this is you’re going into my third book now which hasn’t been published yet, but uh stay tuned.
There’S there’s more there’s more to that long count than meets the eye, and I think Dempsey was inevitably going to give tony some extra time because there’s a lot of different ways that Dempsey kind of screwed that one up but we’ll talk about that later right.
Okay, I was gon na, I was just gon na mention Dave Berry, because the thing was, it done, work for bubuhoff and it’s you know, and I know this is your third book coming up, but it mentions how you know when Dempsey goes down in the eighth Round Barry’s right there to start to count, he doesn’t tell me to go to neutral corner, but I I just hard to believe that was deliberate.
It seems more.
That was just human reaction.
Well, I mean there’s different ways of looking at that um.
You have to understand that one.
There is a neutral corner role, but there isn’t a mandatory account like we have today right as soon as you get up the fight immediately resumes so some some might say that Dempsey was foolish for getting up so quickly because, yes, he went down, but he got.
He got up within a second so by getting up within a second it kind of like, I think it threw Barry off, because the question is: does he send him to the neutral corner role? You know send them to the news recorder and see it’s counting or suspend account the way he with honey.
But then again, why do I need to count Dempsey’s now up? Let’S just let the fight resume so there’s that moment of you know he was kind of coming in and then he kind of just decided to back away and let the fight resume, because there’s no mandatory account right.
That’S a great point.
So, in that sense, Dempsey’s His Own Worst Enemy, because yeah, so the real question would be is: if Dempsey had stayed down, would Barry have forced? Would he have suspended the count and forced honey to go to the neutral Corner before taking up the count and we’ll never know exactly now? A very various accounts.
Excuse me of Dempsey when he fought Fireman Jim Flynn and got knocked out that he was starving.
He had to walk five or ten miles to the to the arena or to the city for the fight, but his wife at the time Maxine.
His prostitute said that he had thrown the fight hard to believe Dempsey would throw the fight, but maybe if he was starving enough perhaps but when they had the rematch, he had no problem with Flynn.
Do you think Dempsey threw that fight um? That’S an eternal debate.
Um I’d put forth the arguments for him, throwing the fight and and against him throwing the fight, and you know I kind of let the readers decide um.
Well, that’s one of the many great things about your book right that you let the readers decide, you give them the truth and these facts and they and and they decide do you think personally, that he threw the fight or are you just presenting the facts and Saying you decide um, so I present the facts of what what makes it look like a legit knockout, and I also present the facts of a lot of different people.
Who were there and said that that fight was fixed um, including his own wife, who said he fixed the fight while she was still married to him? It wasn’t like she said it years later after she was divorced from him.
She was still his wife and it was two months after the fight um.
She was going to a San Francisco newspaper writer, saying my husband threw that fight um.
So you know, but Dempsey at the time said no.
I didn’t she’s just upset at me.
You know, for various reasons and she’s, just trying to hurt me um, but years later, there’s interviews with a lot of people involved with the fight that they that they had information before the fight that was fixed and and and there’s allusions to potentially Dempsey.
You know in his own way admitting that he’d fix the fight that he he regretted doing it, but he did it for the money because he was so poor and his family was in and Dire Straits at the time and he had to come up with some Monies you know quickly and he was offered a good amount of money for him um at the time to do it.
What will be his wife’s motivation for saying that? Is it because she was divorcing him at the time or no? They didn’t actually get divorced for another almost two years: okay, but they were separated um, I think they’re.
You know there may have been brief unit reunifications at various times, um.
The second book in the ring with Jack Dempsey, part two 1919 to 1923 – goes into that a lot.
A lot of a lot came out in the newspapers at the time of uh Dempsey’s uh draft dodging uh, trial and uh.
You know, while those charges criminal charges were pending, the newspapers did more investigation.
They found a lot about about her.
They they found out a lot about the allegations that she made against him, as well as the of the allegation regarding the fixed fight against Jim Flynn.
Things came out in the papers at that time in 1920 uh, which was you know two to three years later, but and also she testified at the trial, which you know some salacious details came out in the papers previous to that and um even during the trial.
That’S when it came out that she basically admitted under oath that she was a prostitute, um yeah I mean it’s all in the book.
I don’t want to spoil it.
You know you’re making me spoil around here.
Well, it’s a huge book.
I mean I don’t.
I don’t think you can spoil it you’re, just letting people’s appetites, for I mean Dempsey, was branded a slacker because he was wearing the patent leather shoes in that famous photo and um Shipyard, but Dempsey really wasn’t a slacker.
I mean his family were his dependents.
He had to support them.
Was that correct? Well, so, at the time there were various exemptions, uh from military service and um yeah.
He claimed those exemptions and they they granted his exemption.
Uh years later, various people were just still upset that he hadn’t voluntarily joined, and his wife said he was a slacker and had engaged in a conspiracy to avoid the draft that got.
You know that led to criminal charges against him for what she was acquitted, uh.
In fact, once the case was given to the jury, they acquitted him very quickly.
Um he had a pretty solid defense and um.
You know.
Oh, I go into the trial.
You know at Great length and you’ll see what the testimony was.
You’Ll see it with the evidence was, and you can make up your own mind, but even though he was found not guilty, uh people don’t realize.
This is because we’re talking about what a great big figure Dempsey is, how beloved he is at the time he was not beloved um.
He was thought of as a draft Dodger and a slacker for years.
Even after he he was acquitted.
He was actually kind of a a load loathe figure, even though people loved watching him fight.
There was this interesting dichotomy or an oxymoron, or you know whatever.
You want to call it where they loved watching him fight and he was fighting because they saw him as a draft Dodger, so they wanted – and you know so he never really kicked that that that image.
It’S it’s an interesting thing because at that time around that era, Fatty Arbuckle was acquitted for Virginia repay.
I think it was or whatever her name was, he was accused of raping and they admitted repay and her Handler admitted they did this to a lot of other men.
They were accused him that Arbuckle was in the hotel suite but was not in a room and actually had never met her, yet it ruined her career.
The people didn’t care and, like you’re saying this followed Dempsey, although you know looks like perhaps it wasn’t true, but I guess people today don’t understand the fact how big you know.
This was the first big, The Ward and all wars so for Dempsey not to participate.
I guess being the heavyweight champion of the world, while other people had to would have been looked on a scans by so many people and and that’s something that the book hits on.
Uh is just how upset people were at Dempsey for not going into the military.
I mean it was like this theme throughout the book, there’s a lot of saltiness and bitterness towards them, even at the same time they liked him personally and they loved his style.
They they really.
It really bothered a lot of people that he hadn’t hadn’t joined up.
In the military, it’s sort of, like it kind of gives you a little moment of pause to understand why Muhammad Ali slash Cassius Clay was so low that the time in in the 60s, when he he wouldn’t join up.
And – and you know, I guess if you really want to see just how America you know – saw that patriotism as very important as the heavyweight champion or a top Contender joining up voluntarily.
It was such a big deal to them.
You could kind of look at Dempsey’s life and career and that’s sort of a harbinger of of how load Ali was uh for not joining and because they really disliked Dempsey.
A lot of people did because he didn’t voluntarily join uh.
Regarding that photo.
You mentioned with the uh the leather patent leather shoes that was, that was obviously not him working um.
So so one of the ways you got around working uh being in the military uh there was something called a work or fight order that if you’re not fighting, you had to be working in an essential industry.
That was that would help towards the war.
And so you know, one of the things you could do would be to like be a welder or you know, work building, ships or something of that nature, and so one of his claims was that’s what he was doing when the reality is.
If he did do that, it was probably very limited in time um.
He really was just a professional boxer at the time, but in his defense he said that the military had asked him to do that for recruiting purposes, so they staged these photos at the military’s request and he said, look whatever they asked me to do.
I did they asked me to save these photos because he was a top top Contender at the time and that that would help Garner publicity for the the recruitment war effort Recruitment, and so he these photos were posed, but it wasn’t at his request.
It was at the military’s request, he did it for them.
You know, and he also argued that um he was uh donating a lot of his purses.
That’S another thing that people don’t want to sort of acknowledge about him.
Is he worked? He fought for free a lot of times.
He donated several of his purses um, you know and he fought for nothing uh so including including against Willie Meehan, the fight that he lost the four round decision um.
He said he was the injured going into that fight, but because he was doing it to earn money for the military and for the soldiers in Sailors Relief Fund.
He didn’t want to pull out of the fight, even with a badly injured hand.
He was actually, in his hand, was actually broken going into the fight and um he said look, this is this is for the military.
I want to make the money and it wound up making.
You know generating well over twenty thousand dollars that he didn’t make a dime off of that.
So you know yeah.
He had a lot of good arguments on it on his side.
He’S like hey.
I still did my part.
Well, it’s yeah! It’S interesting when you look at it sort of relates to Joe Lewis, because Lewis under different circumstances, but he volunteered immediately to go into the army.
I guess, which is why a lot of you know part of his team part of Lewis’s, Roxborough and and black and and uh Jacobs.
They were made sure that Lewis volunteered right away because they’re always looking out for Lewis’s image to make sure that you know this was a patriotic loyal American, but you bring up a fantastic point with Jack Dempsey that I mean in the second world war he Fallen.
I believe he volunteered and was in Okinawa and and and uh it apparently from what I understand Angelo told me and Freddie Pacheco Muhammad’s Doctor Who met damson when he was young, but he couldn’t say anything to him because he was so Starstruck.
He couldn’t.
He tried to talk.
He couldn’t get the words out said it really.
Even in his later years, it bothered Dempsey that he was called the slacker that he never really got over the hurt of that because he said it just wasn’t true yeah many years later in the World War II, he joined the Coast Guard, and I think that Was you know psychologically, I think his way of of saying Hey.
I want to do my part because yeah, I think it did always bother him those accusations.
Now.
This is sort of a silly question because it’s been asked about everyone, but did Hollywood, rune, Jack Dempsey, Estelle Taylor, who that jacked up Kearns did not like the currencies wanted to keep Dempsey on the straight narrow.
Just keep fighting keep making money.
Did he you know he had three years off did that was I guess that was really what that really hurt.
Him heard him career-wise and skill-wise because he didn’t really care at that point.
Yeah I mean that again, that’s going to be my third book on Dempsey and I’m going to in great detail what was going on, not only in Dempsey’s life and career during the three years that he was sitting on the shelf and not fighting, but also, what’s Going on in boxing and the world and with other contenders, you know Harry Wills, Gene Tunney Harry grab, all of them.
You know: what’s cool, I’m gon na paint the picture for everyone and you all can make a decision about what what ruined Dempsey you know, but at the end of the day we all have to take personal responsibility for our own decisions.
But you know there’s reasons.
There’S a lot of reasons for Hawaii.
He sat out as long as he did and I’ll lay it out there you can.
You can decide what you want to believe.
I know that um there are several several times where, when they’re all having dinner together in currents verbally laid into Estelle Taylor, Chris Dundee said, if that was my wife and someone had done that I’d kill them.
You don’t talk to someone’s wife like that, but Kearns was what I guess: Frasier called it scambuga he he was a rogue, but he was successful.
He knew how to get along in the boxing business.
Is it true that he served a summons to Dempsey while Dempsey was in the ring? I it wasn’t while he was in the ring, but it was.
It was before the the first honey fight that, yes, he did Sue him um for his share of the other purse and uh that was, you know, Dempsey had to deal with a bunch of litigation before the uh, the first honey fight, which again the book goes Into right, it’s it’s! You know it’s hard to believe when you read about it, that from what I’ve read and correct me if I’m wrong, if it’s true or not, that the person should be paid to the manager to Kearns and he’d, give Dempsey his purse.
But often he considered the whole thing his money and he would gamble it away or whatever and give them parcel of the money out to them.
So he wasn’t there a point where Tech’s record just said: you know you’re getting screwed here you should so Dempsey would take the money and then Rick or Kearns would be furious, but Dempsey there’s no reason to be furious.
You’Re getting your percentage.
As a Greek, I mean yeah that that’s tough.
To answer I mean I, you know Dempsey and ferns for many years operated without a written contract.
They they basically had a pretty darn good, amicable relationship from 1917.
All the way through you know, past 1923, 1924.
um.
Obviously that changed, but they they got along well enough – that uh they didn’t even need a contract um.
They they were operating on a 50 50 split, which today we would.
I don’t think a 50 50 split go ahead.
Sorry yeah! We lost you, so you said they’re operating on the 55th.
They were operating on a 50 50 split and at some point they signed a before the ferpill fight.
They, the New York State, athletic commission, uh, forced them to sign and file a formal contract and uh.
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