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EPISODE: Episode 1
Get ready for another intriguing episode of Ring Talk with Lou Eisen as we embark on a journey through the annals of boxing history with a distinguished guest, Clay Moyle. Clay is not only an accomplished author but also an independent historian specializing in the sweet science.
As a member of the International Boxing Research Organization (IBRO), Clay Moyle is dedicated to preserving the rich heritage of boxing. IBRO, founded in 1982, is committed to establishing an accurate history of the sport and compiling comprehensive and precise boxing records. Clay’s work aligns perfectly with this mission, making him a trusted authority in the world of boxing history.
In this episode, we’ll delve into the intricacies of Clay Moyle’s research and writing, exploring the stories and legends that have shaped the sport of boxing. From forgotten fighters to iconic matches, Clay’s work brings the past of this noble sport to life.
Join us as we celebrate the meticulous work of Clay Moyle in preserving the legacy of boxing. Whether you’re a seasoned boxing enthusiast or just curious about the sport’s rich history, this episode promises to be a fascinating journey through time.
Don’t miss this chance to gain insights into the world of boxing history with Clay Moyle on Ring Talk with Lou Eisen. Like, comment, and share this episode to honor the dedication of those who safeguard the stories of the ring.
Transcribed
[, Music, ] hi, I’m Lou, Eisen boxing writer and historian.
I don’t know why we had the picture of last week’s guest up there, Mary Greg.
I apologize to Our Guest today, um uh, but uh.
We will fix that before this actually gets to air uh after uh.
Today we have a fantastic guest he’s one of the first, probably the first person uh, without a doubt that I befriended at the international Boxing Hall of Fame.
He was extremely kind and, and his name is Clay Mo he’s an internationally well-known, admired and respected uh boxing writer and he’s written some magnificent boxing books.
He wrote a book on the wonderful Billy misy and that book got Billy misy into the national International Boxing Hall of Fame.
He also wrote a wonderful book on Tony Zale, the great Tony Zale, the Man of Steel and my favorite book, and I was just absolute.
I was in tears, seeing this in the store was on this man, the Canadian.
It took an American to bring this man back to life Sam lford, and this is a great book and it’s boxing’s greatest uncrowned champion and that’s what Sam Langford is known as boxing’s greatest uncrown champion and if not for the racism of the time he would have Been a world champion, and we are pleased as punch to welcome someone who’s more familiar with Canada than most Canadians themselves.
Mr Clay Moy Lou, it’s good to be here.
Oh thank you.
It’S great to have you.
I was thinking the other day if you were gon na change, your name from cass’s clay moil to Muhammad Ali Mo, but I guess you you stuck that’s a I’ve been using this one for you know long enough.
I think I’ll keep it it’s a great name.
I never like I never like my name, because Lou rhymes of so many things, all my first cousins have the same name because we’re named after my grandfather.
So what made you? What? What was the first thing that when you came across line for the first time, you thought I got ta do something on this guy? What grabbed you yeah? That’S um! You know I really didn’t know much about Sam for the longest time it heard the name but yeah once I started uh reading materials about him and and other Fighters um.
You know I just came up across a wealth of information about his fighting prowess and uh um.
He was such a character, I mean he.
The guy was a real character and had a great sense of humor um, but yeah.
It was all the accolades.
I was coming across from his counterparts.
You know these other great fighters who were uh you just singing his Praises.
You know the more I read about him and learned about him.
The more intrigued I became and and yeah at some point I just was like how come nobody’s ever written a book about this guy he’s phenomenal was phenomenal, um and – and it was obviously such a shame that uh so many people don’t know how great he was As a boxer um, so you know I just decided that uh I’d always kind of wanted to write a book, and I thought I would pick him as my first subject, of course, not realizing what a big job I’d taken on, because, as you know, he he Had over 300 professional fights and a 24y year ring career, so um there was a lot of to cover and a tremendous amount of research, but that’s that’s really why I selected him as a subject was.
I just became fascinated with him.
You know he he’s I.
I love that you mentioned, because I wanted to bring it up his his sense of humor um.
You sent me a lot of your notes it because I was asking you certain questions before and there’s so many fantastic.
I mean the book could have been six to 800 Pages as far as I’m concerned and that it wouldn’t have been enough because there’s so many many Fantastic stories about him and so many hysterically funny quotes that he said that made sense.
For instance, you were telling me about about when they touch gloves like right.
What was that story again? Well, there’s one it sounded like.
It happened on more than one occasion where he went out um.
You know traditionally many boxers before the final round would touch gloves before the round commences and uh Sam went out with to do and he reached out to touch gloves with the fighter.
You know – and it was earlier in in the fight – and you know the fighter – had a got – a very confused look on his face and said Sam.
This is not the ra last round and of course Sam said well, it is for [ Laughter, ], you and, and then knocked him out, of course, that round, but he had that kind of ability, um and talent he was he was.
You know you obviously know very much about Muhammad Ali as a result of your friendship, great friendship with Angelo Dundee and um.
You know Muhammad became pretty famous for early in his career naming the round.
He was going to take a fighter out.
Well, you know Sam was very similar in that regard, and uh essentially was doing that what 100 years earlier, not a 100, but you know yeah, I mean he but long before and right.
There was also you had great stories about how one writer called him yellow, and I think it was England and he positioned the fighter right above the writer and then just knocked him into his lap.
Oh yeah, that was actually uh.
That was actually against Jim Flynn.
Right, it did occur in the states, it was uh and there was that was one one of only two losses.
Sam cover uh incurred over a four or five year period, where I think he was really at his Peak and uh Flynn had, you know, had upset him in a match and then you know went about bragging about it.
Um and this writer uh was very uncomplimentary towards Sam uh, as the rematch approached and, of course it uh caused a lot of ey on the part of Sam and um when that fight occurred.
As you said at some point during the the match, he he maneuvered Flynn over towards, where that Rider Sports rider was sitting near ringside, got into a clinch and directed some comments towards the sports writer to the effect that uh here I I brought I’m I’m about To bring your Champion to uh to you, and you know, Flynn didn’t know who he was talking to.
You know kind of glanced over and next thing you knew Sam knocked him out and uh you know was in the first round, you know so he he basically decided he was gon na put a very bring a very quick ending to this fight and again he Had the ability to do that when he wanted to um he he carried a lot of Fighters right.
He said he was never involved in a in a fix, uh throwing a fight but um.
You know he would carry a number of Fighters.
There was a great story in a 1920 match.
A Memphis promoter had a good crowd that particular day, and he said that Sam came up to him before the fight and uh said.
I noticed you got a good crowd out here.
What what did you want me to do? Did you want me to take him out early? You want me to carry him a few rounds.
You know the that particular promoter.
You know wasn’t in the business of uh operating that way and said you know Sam.
You just fight the way you normally fight, but honestly that was how he fought in.
In many cases he was he was, he was trying to you know, do the you know.
Do the wishes of the promoter so um yeah interesting it? I saw another comment by ab hadel ab hadel, the great fighter who said that uh, you know, there’s we’ll never know how many fighters that uh that Sam carried during his career yeah it’s it’s interesting.
The only time I ever saw RAR cell get angry was when someone asked him.
I understand that Sam Langford and and Benny Leonard and other guys, uh had fixed fights and he said not in the way you think so right, no one was like, as you just said, no one was planned to lose, but he said Sam Langford skill was so Supreme, you know, even if a gun tother had guys just wouldn’t get in the ring with him, so he had the promise, as you said, to carry carry them for eight or nine rounds, and he said only mistake.
Some of these fighter made was they broke.
The deal right you have that story.
You told me about that.
One guy uh, it was in the papers.
You sent me the the guy who agreed where Joe Woodman his manager said.
He’Ll go easy on you he’ll! Let it go and then this guy started to take punches with him and Woodman or Sam said deals off right, right, yeah um! That happened Kel too.
Didn’T it sorry didn’t that happen with ketchel as well, because ketchell was Notorious for not living up to D yeah.
I don’t know that there was an agreement between the two men per se.
In that particular fight.
I mean the story.
Is that um? You know that there was a more much more longer lucrative match out on the west coast that would take place if Sam would agree to um.
You know to carry him in this particular fight.
Now um.
You know, I think what Sam came to realize in that six short six round fight with ketchel was that um carrying ketchel was not necessarily as easy as it was to carry some other man.
He he had a real um.
He was very complimentary uh concerning ketchel and his level of aggressiveness, and you know he found he had to.
He had to work a lot harder to um to avoid uh taking him out.
You know so I mean because he had to at some point.
He decided that he had to defend himself and he had to become more aggressive than he himself had planned in order to survive that sixth round bout but yeah, it was a real shame that you know it was.
I think it was a matter of months later that ketchel, of course, was assassinated and that that the longer fight never came to fruition, and it would have been very interesting to um to see what the results would have been from that bout.
Most of those in many of those, the majority of those in in attendance, felt that Sam had carried ketchel, but you know there were others who didn’t see it.
That way, of course, and well I I read – I mean I’ve SC, where they said that’s been listed as a win for for uh Lanford or as a draw, but exactly what you said where people said that lford won and that the next fight was supposed to Be a title, fight and right, catell got assassinated and and that there went Sam’s chances, but also ketro was good friends of lford and with Jack Johnson he wasn’t.
He was unlike a lot of the fighters back then he was not bigoted or racist at all.
In any way, right, yeah ketchel is honestly a guy.
That would be interesting to see someone take on a fulllength biography about as well.
I mean you think about it.
I think Nat Fleer did a very short biography about him, but yeah.
He would be a task taken on much like Langford, that that would be a lot of work, many years of effort to to do a decent job of it, but that would be well worth the time for someone to do yeah.
It’S it’s interesting when I, when I would read about uh cat, show that he would go to whouses of Jack Johnson and he was good friends with Sam and and it’s it’s fascinating that, although there were a lot of racist Fighters back, then you get guys like Terry McGovern, who was actually good friends of George Dixon and Joe Gans and other black Fighters.
There were exceptions to the rule back then right, yeah they’re definitely were.
Of course, the flip side of that was you’d had a number of white Fighters that just Flatout refused to fight blacks, of course, and and and and in the and in the states there was.
There were many states at the time where um bouts between mixed racist was prohibited right and it.
It just kills me that I remember at the hall of fame years ago, when we were there that I was sitting in on a seminar, and I I said how can you, how can anyone accept John El salvin as the first gloved heavyweight champ? He should be the first gloved White heavyweight champ, because Peter Jackson was the best heavyweight in the world at that time.
Johnson wouldn’t fight him.
I mean this is almost like revisionist history.
Right yeah, you remember um.
I think it was Bob Fitz, Simmons uh who ultimately be did become a heavyweight champion and he always referred to um Peter Jackson as the the granddaddy of them all right right and we know suvan, wouldn’t fight the Canadian George Godfrey and he wouldn’t fight uh Jackson.
Right and then, ironically, when Jack Johnson, no here’s something I want to ask you so Jack Johnson apparently did he make this deal with the national sporting Club in England to fight Langford? If he beats Burns yeah, I believe he did.
I mean they um.
The story is that you know Jack Johnson, of course, was chasing Tommy Burns All Around the World in an effort to try to get a fight with him for the title and uh when he moved on when Burns moved on from England to Australia.
You know Johnson was getting short on cash supposedly and um the national sporting club stepped in and made an agreement with him.
They would fund his travel to Australia in exchange for this agreement, that should he win the title he returned to England for a first title.
Offense against Sam lenford, who they already knew very well because Sam had been there uh a year prior and had four matches over there and they were very impressed with Sam Langford.
So they wanted to have the Twan Fight Before Their Club in England and uh yeah.
There was a signed agreement and um.
You know after Johnson won the title he reneged on the deal and uh.
He felt like the money.
Wasn’T sufficient um refused to honor it and uh.
He claimed that it was his manager that had signed the agreement.
The national supporting Club National sporting club then produced the agreement with Johnson’s signature.
You know, but it no matter.
You know Johnson, of course, moved back to the United States in pursuit of uh, more lucrative opportunities and and then uh as a result.
Um, the National sporting club invited uh Sam to come over and instead fight for what they termed the world heavyweight title in England against their Champion.
Iron, hag and uh Sam of course defeated him in the fourth round, knocked him out and uh.
They.
They in fact proclaimed Sam as the heavyweight champion of the world at the time, but yeah long story short um.
I believe that Johnson signed that agreement to uh to fight him and reneged on it, but Johnson was known for that.
I mean people, a lot of people don’t realize Johnson was, as Joe Frasier would say, was a scamba, a rogue he he he skipped out on Hotel bills.
He he he would get money for Vaudeville T and do three nights and then leave and from when I read about him in in the book Unforgivable Blackness.
They said that um he was his Own Worst Enemy.
I mean people didn’t want to help him.
People were saying to Johnson yeah, you know, I would have helped you with that, but I signed you for 30 grand and you did four shows and left and you never repa me the extra money.
So why would I help you? Yeah Sam was a much more likable figure than than Johnson for sure.
I know that the famous promoter over in Australia at the time um Macintosh specifically mentioned that he you know he said that he was always at odds with uh with Johnson, but um instead got along.
You know, famously with Sam found him very humorous, with a droll Whimsical sense of humor and uh very, very easy to work with, but yeah Johnson.
I, I think Johnson clearly ruffled a lot of feathers um and you know In fairness to him.
I, like all blacks at the time he suffered a tremendous amount of discrimination um.
So I think he carried a big chip on his shoulder as a result of that and yeah, and you can’t blame him for that, because the I mean that went up right.
You know you look at a guy like Sunny Lon who the mobster Mo deits used the n-word with him when every time he spoke to him and when Liston wanted to hurt him, he just said: I’m a mobster, you hurt me, I’d, kill you and your wife.
Nothing you can do about it and and just right it it it’s heartbreaking when you see how Johnson and Lanford and Gans and Dixon and all the great African-American African, Great Canadian and African Australian fighters and British Fighters were treated like dirt, it’s it’s unconscionable.
It’S evil! Right, you know, so that’s just a wind opening my door.
So it’s it’s! It’S unbelievable that and still what upsets me Clay is that there are people here on this planet today.
That’Ll say well, that’s the way it was back then doesn’t make it acceptable.
No, absolutely not racism, it’s terrible, yeah, it’s just terrible and um.
You know one of the stories.
I love that you had about um uh, Sam Langford.
I mean there were so many you know uh in the book, but it was great the way he spoke about his family about his his and wonder the wonderful pictures of his extended family and his daughter, and fact you also mentioned that probably most people didn’t realize And still don’t that Jack Johnson drew the color line against Langford because he beat him the first time, but he could see how good he was going to become yeah.
He absolutely did uh draw the color line when it came to Sam and and many of the other leading black contenders like Joe Janette and Sam McVey.
He he defeated all three of these fellas before, but but clearly uh for a number of years.
They were the leading contenders for his title and didn’t receive a shot.
I think I think Sam uh, more so than any of the others was, was robbed of that opportunity.
You know I was looking through the notes in preparation for this.
As a reminder, uh to my myself of this call again – and you know I just you know recall and remembered – was reminded that uh he was Sam at one time or another was the heavyweight champion of the world in five different countries – England, France, Australia, Canada and Finally, Mexico, in addition to winning the colored Heavyweight Championship, a number of different times um, I think you know the bottom line.
Lewis again, I was looking at notes and I was reminded that uh you know the Australian promoter Macintosh tried very hard to get Johnson to come over and and fight Sam and um.
You know he said that.
Finally, at one point Johnson just said to him: you know he you give it up, I’m you know I’m basically, I’m never gon na we’re, never gon na fight.
You know he’s he is uh.
Probably you know just the most dangerous he’s got a chance to win against any heavyweight in the world.
There’S you know basically there’s too many other Easy Money: white men for me to fight than risk the title against him right and that’s the way boxing is yeah and he told this.
He said the same thing to Duke Mullins, who was the trainer over in uh Australia, who trained both himself for his fight with Burns and then later trained Sam when he was over there for a year and a half.
You know he said that any time that uh Sam’s name would come up Johnson very quickly tried to change the subject and um you know said the same same thing to Mullins.
Basically, you know, there’s he’s got a chance to win against anybody.
You know he didn’t.
He didn’t exclude himself not to say that Johnson might not have beaten him anyway, because you know he’s he was a very skilled and bigger defensive fighter.
I think he would have fought a very cautious fight against Sam tried to you know, avoid taking a big blow, but um he knew Sam was the most dangerous fighter out there for him during that period of time, didn’t want to mess with him right, and I I in your book you’re mentioning how often like Joe Woodman langford’s manager, who really loved them.
Often the story of the fight was depending on which manager got to the telephone quickest, to call the newspaper and Woodman said years later that in fact, Sam was dominated by was really be Johnson, although he put out an alternative story yeah the only time they fought.
Obviously was in April of 1906, and you know Sam – that was his second heavyweight fight in his career at that particular point in time or third, rather I’m sorry, he had just defeated uh Joe Janette after they had fought twice so um yeah Johnson by all reports Won the fight easily but um he gained a a healthy respect for Sam and his power and in fact, in 1940s he referred to Sam as the toughest little son of a that ever lived.
You know, so he he he didn’t want to fight him again.
I think that’s the bottom line, I mean and again you know being a businessman, it was he was, he was correct, I mean there he could make just as much money or more fighting easier white man than he could taking on Sam at that particular point in Time right, Angel Dunder used to tell me that the rule of thumb was always least amount of risk for the most amount of money right and doesn’t make for great fights all the time but but but Langford didn’t like Johnson did he I mean he? No.
He didn’t like him at all.
I you know, I think he thought he.
I think he viewed him as a just a bragger and and of course he was very angry at him for for not giving him an opportunity.
Um right, you know, there’s a there was a great story about the there was a.
There was a benefit that took place shortly after the San Francisco earthquake and uh.
You know Sam was asked to appear in this benefit to raise money for the San franciscans and according to the reports he he agreed, but on one condition he wanted to be matched in.
This exhibition against with Jack Johnson Jack Johnson was appearing, of course, and um.
You know in that I guess Johnson when he was when he was introduced.
You know he was.
He was awarded with some kind of a watch and he you know he just made.
He was.
He was very full of himself.
You know.
Sam was was just disgusted with him, and you know he always.
He just did not like his manners and um when that when that exhibition took place, this is Sam’s report of the story that uh what view of what took place.
He said he got.
He walked up to Johnson and said this wasn’t going to be any exhibition and that it just they proceeded to brawl and knock down some background scenery, and you know he he really played it up in terms of what took place now.
I searched and searched to see if I could find any reports that would back that up but uh.
I did not come across anything of that sort, so I I don’t know if anything to that degree took place but yeah.
Clearly, Sam uh didn’t like the man, but you know he was complimentary in terms of his his skills later on you.
He had.
He had a respect for for Johnson’s ability as a fighter yeah that came out.
You know I don’t like him personally, but he could really fight right and it just shows you that you’re talking about a potential fight between I mean Angela always said to me: there’s no ifs in boxing.
Don’T get don’t go on these Facebook pages? What happens if Jack Johnson faces Joe Fraser? He said it’s a stupid question right, two different erors, two kinds of fighting and there’s no answer.
You can only go if they actually fought so yeah yeah.
You know – and I was thinking about that today – Lou um, like you say you go on the internet, you see all these debates between these so-called historians and other fans about what would happen if these certain Fighters fought one another.
I’Ve always put much more uh weight on the opinion of man who fought in the ring against these men at that particular point in time.
Like you know Joe Janette, for example, um Joe Janette fought both Sam and Jack Johnson.
He fought Jack Johnson on more than one occasion prior to Johnson becoming the champion, and you know Janette felt that uh once Sam got a little more ring experience and gained some weight that he F.
He felt that uh Sam would have defeated Johnson any time that Johnson gave him a fight, gave him an opportunity.
You know that’s yeah, you have to trust what he says: yeah, absolutely right: yeah, gunboat Smith, gunboat Smith fought both of both men.
He fought Jack Johnson.
He sparred with him and uh, and he fought Sam twice.
He felt he felt that Sam would defeat him as well um, and he – and he also said you know he said that both he guno Smith fought both Dempsey and Jack Johnson.
In addition to Sam – and he said that Sam was the harder hitter of the three by far he said that he said basically that Sam ruined him the last time that the who fought Sam a lot of yeah.
I think he did.
You know a lot of guys were never the same in or out of the ring after uh after uh they they fought Sam.
It’S interesting.
You say that because I use your name online, a lot when people bring Langford up and I always say you should read Clay’s book, but I also say: if that’s not in Clay’s book, then I don’t buy it.
You know if he, if, if clay didn’t say that, then you can’t tell me that you know he fought this guy or that guy, if just no record of it, if play, doesn’t have it, it doesn’t exist so yeah.
Well, you know Lou you you mentioned earlier.
Um about uh the book be potentially being longer.
There was a period that my first draft of that book was was over 150,000 words wow, and I ultimately edited it down to about 113,000.
After I learned from different Publishers that they considered the sweet up The Sweet Spot between 880,000 to 110,000 right, you know, there’s there’s so many more books that about boxers that we see today that are uh, self-published or um through smaller Publishers that are five or 600 Or more pages you you, you, could you couldn’t get away with that uh back in the day when you could only get a book published by a mainstream publisher? No one was gon na publish something that long.
Well, you know when, when I sent my book um in, I had problems with with um with uh Amazon, so colie and AOK, who we both know said, send it to my friend at right Harland and he said I like it and I said thank you, but He said you’ve written like four books.
He said it’s 223 page thousand Pages.
He said he’s very plight.
He said with all due respect and bless.
Are you out of your mind? He said a 100,000 is the most and he said I I like what you’ve written, but he said in your Pages you you’ll mention, for instance, the walgast rivers fight and you mention how Jack Welsh, cheated and I’ll say right.
He said, but you mention it nine times it isn’t necessary.
You mention it once that’s it.
Take the other nine out.
I went that’s a good point, but he gave me such great direction that I knew what to look for when going through it and cutting off.
Well, you know that you know Nat Fleer was so prolific when it came to writing books.
I mean he knocked out so many of them, but uh.
What a lot of people don’t know is that um, you know 19 early 1960s or mid 60s.
There was an article in Sports Illustrated about all these unpublished manuscripts that he had in his vault in his office at Madison Square Garden, and he referred to those and miraculously I I came to acquire those in in around 2013 and uh.
There was there was like, for example, a u a that was unpublished by him, the history of uh prize fighting in New York and and another one about Chicago and those were just massive.
I mean they were typewritten Pages, five or six hundred pages.
I don’t know it, you know they would have been well over.
Like you said today, you’d have to do three or four books to get him published, so he could not find as wellknown as he was and as respected as he was as a writer.
In his time period he could not find anybody to publish him, so they they sat in this safe forever uh.
I I ended up selling those to the University of Notre Dame but um, so they’re well cared for now, but yeah I was blown away by.
They were well cared for when you had them, because no one, I think, they’ll be cared for better there than than no one respected it more and loved it more than you did and and and knew about it and knew, and you know, appreciated what he was Doing more than you did I I know I don’t know where the man found the time to to write so many material on a sitting on an old old typewriter too yeah.
He must not have slept.
No, I mean, and then you you read about him and he’ll talk about you, know the George Dixon fight with young Griffo and I’m thinking well, what were you four months old during that fight? I mean.
How could you cover that fight? You know in the 1890s and then be be you know, but you know he obviously Acquired and accumulated a lot of material like from um like the old police, National Police G Gazette the the mirror of life.
So I mean he had a tremendous supply of uh recounts of those fights, but he was obviously relying upon that information to do that wasn’t ring originally the idea of Tex Rickard as an in-house magazine for his his promotional company.
I don’t know, I don’t know where how that originated.
Of course, I all I know is they did you know.
The first issue was in February of 1922, of course, but um you know you think about that as well.
Um um shoot.
What is the uh spacing out here? The the name of the periodical that uh began in 1910 in England, the arena was it the arena? No, no! It’S it’s! It’S got boxing in in the name of the title: okay, uh.
In any case I mean yeah.
Basically, they were 12 years before so I mean there are some great periodicals out there that exist to this day, uh back to 1910 of, and obviously well beyond that in some of the older, like The Illustrated record, there was a periodical titled, The Illustrated record.
I came across some of those from like 1901 to 1904 and so forth.
They were so brittle that uh, you had to handle them very carefully, be disintegrate in your hands, but so many tremendous uh articles and huge line, drawings of Fighters and fights that were taking place – I mean they’re, just they were fantastic.
Big too.
I mean you’re talking about 11 by4 and you know big massive volumes of these periodicals.
I know that I was trying to I have it it’s the first chapter in my book.
Tony G helped me with it the bare knuckle boxing historian um.
I was looking for the first fight that I could verify was fixed in England.
I think it goes back to 1772, so I was looking online and typing these things into Google and it mentioned that there was this newspaper.
I don’t know if it was the AIS Birmingham Gazette or something been publishing boxing stories from 1700 to 2000 and I had a guy’s name.
So I contacted the guy, he said yeah, they just stopped and I said how do I get a hold of these fights and he said it’s all online and he gave me the information I went online.
I was able to find it and look about this fight, but when I spoke to Tony G, he said the problem with Pier Sean and and um.
It wasn’t anything negative about Pier Sean uh, but reports in that time.
Weren’T necessarily correct as to the dates often, and a lot of the reports were done well after the fight had taken place.
So you know what I did.
I dug through a lot of microfilm, obviously to do research for the Langford book and others, but um.
One thing I did not uh do was, and I would have liked to got my hands on a lot more of the uh accounts in in uh African-American.
Newspapers of that time I and I’ve never really come across many of those.
I don’t know how difficult that is.
I assume it’s probably pretty difficult, maybe not so much in the last couple years.
I I’d like to think that they’re available now in microfilm or in some other manner but uh.
I wonder how many of those have actually survived uh and exist, but I would loved to read: accounts of fights um, like you know the Johnson Langford fight in 1906.
In in Boston, I dug up a number of local paper accounts of the fight, but you know I’m sure there were.
There were accounts in some uh, some black newspapers, of the time too, but I I wasn’t able to find any of those.
It would have been very interesting to read those I know when reading recent baseball books there are uh quotes from black own newspapers uh from the 40s and 30s and 20s, so I mean it exists.
I just don’t know how to go about finding it right.
You know so it’s difficult, uh, you’re, luckier in the sense that you’re in the States.
You know when I called to try to access Hank kaplan’s boxing archive at Brooklyn College.
The woman said we’ll get you anything you want.
You just have to be in person right.
It’S too massive to put online.
It just isn’t possible, so that’s sort of a um a detriment.
It’S interesting with Langford, because I I read about him when I was a kid and my father would talk about him and when I spoke to Angelo Angelo uh, I don’t know if Angelo met him.
I know Chris knew him.
Chris D’s brother knew yep well, and he said Sam was always a gentleman right, always had a smile and a funny joke for you and there’s that clip online, which you’ve seen where he just has the eye surgery yep and it’s like a 35 second clip.
But he’s he just, he had a smile that even today, when you look at at it in your book, great laugh, great, laugh and that smile lights up the world you know and and and just such a a magnificent person you.
You wonder why I mean your book should be a movie.
I mean I can’t think of a better topic for a movie.
Well Lou.
I can tell you that um there was a fellow that opt in the book.
Um shoot eight nine years ago, uh I’ve become good friends with them now over the years and helped them with the outline um and give him some input he’s actually written a screenplay for it and and then during coid.
We work together on a pilot for, U possible Series, so he’s got a he’s, got a pilot, written and um outlined for episodes uh.
So you know, he’s he’s been pedalling this for now, for the last six or seven years, I’d, say uh in an effort to try to get somebody interested in funding that project and – and you know, he’s been talking to a number of pretty well-known parties – um, but Yeah so far it hasn’t transpired.
I I think it would make for a very interesting movie and – and the screenplay that was developed, I think, is very good but yeah who knows I my both my parents were alive when my first two books were option and I thought well gez.
This would really be something if one of these gets made into a movie.
I’D love it for you.
My parents would love this and now I’m just hoping that if it actually happens, I’m still here right.
I I spoke.
A friend of mine who’s been a movie reviewer from Toronto, but he he wrote for the LA Times And The Hollywood Reporter Newsweek and different things and um.
I said to him: how do you it became a screenwriter himself, but I said how do you get stuff optioned? You write something and it’s good.
It’S not you whether you think it’s good or not, but other people seen it and said that’s great.
It should be a movie, he said it’s easier.
If you get a star attached and yeah, he said that’s why so many actors are aspiring writers, because when they do a movie with someone you know you mentioned hey, I have something you might be interested in.
You said, if you get someone behind it, and I’ve been trying to do the same thing with Jim Dundee about his father and their relationship with Muhammad Ali Vis, A the Nation of Islam and the mafia, and just book movie documentary and everyone’s like why yeah, I Know I I personally, you know obviously familiar with that effort and I I think that story would be very interesting and quite a bit different, obviously than all the other Ali movies and stories we’ve seen and heard so um yeah.
I wish him luck with that and you, if you’re gon na, be continued involved with it, because I think it would be uh.
I think it would do well.
Well, I I do too, but it’s interesting, a a friend of mine from grade schools, an entertainment lawyer, and he spoke.
He said to me, sat down with me and said: well, there’s good news and bad news, and I said: what’s the good news, there’s only two literary agents in Canada that handle sport SPS projects, that’s it well, you know what Lou there’s something else I heard about Canada from the fellow who has the option on the Langford, and that’s if uh, you know, we thought at one point we thought well, maybe we’d have a better chance of getting in some interes in Canada.
H for this story, since Sam was born in Nova, Scotia and you know, come to learn that um, you know to to to obtain funding for an effort like that in Canada.
You, it has to be, I believe, said it had to be directed and produced by or written by a Canadian party, something to that effect.
Anyway.
There was there was some obstacles that made it more difficult to um to accomplish that in Canada than I thought it necessarily would be yeah it.
It’S yeah I’ve gone through the same thing in the States.
Oh no in Canada, where oh, where they said yeah we’ll give you I like.
I said my next book.
I want it to be.
We were talking about off there on on uh, because it’s it’s a great theme on George Godfrey and and George budge buyers, because their stories were success, buyers retire or Godfrey retired, wealthy and then his family turned it into millions.
On his advice, he said, don’t sell the land, you know rent off of it, but keep it, and so they made millions and he saves his money and he worked for the railroad and it’s family.
Both families still have the money.
It’S a success story, two African-Americans, whose families started in slavery who came from Prince Edward Island, but at the time they were born, the the the population of African Canadians.
There was infantism, you know it is today, so it was less then right and once again take it to a producer.
Here, that’s a great story.
I know who to do it and it gives me the name of a guy who just produced a documentary on Canadian TV on on on Buck O’Neal, the black baseball player, yep and Herb carnegi first well-known black hockey player in Canada, and I spoke to the guy.
He said I loved it.
I loved it and I said that’s great, he said, but I don’t I work for the sports network here and what I do is I I help companies to bring us documentaries, so you have to go to the guy that brought that to me.
I went great and sent him an email four weeks ago and nothing because in Canada, unlike the states, they just don’t get back to you yeah sure yeah.
It’S things move at a snails pace, seemingly um yeah.
I there’s been so many times over the the years here that uh again, the fellow who has the option on this Langford book has uh contacted me and told me about someone you know such and such a party that it’s been presented to the read it over.
You know an actor and you know fairly big names at times and and you you get your hopes up – that okay now we’re finally getting somewhere.
Maybe but you know nothing’s come to fruition.
Yet so yeah we’ll see it’s frustrating.
It almost gives you a sense.
I don’t know if it’s fair to say of Langford and what he went through in his time, because he must have been told a million times.
You’Re gon na get your shot right time, it’s happen, and then it just never happened.
Yeah.
I think that you know when he honestly felt that it it was over for good that that was never GNA.
Happen was clearly when Jess Willard uh the white Contender defeated Jack Johnson in 1915.
You know at that point he you know.
He says he flat out decided that that was it.
There was.
There was no way that a black man was going to get a chance to fight for the title again anytime soon and that he quit any serious training um.
And he was right honestly because what it wasn’t until 1937 right that that Joe Lewis became the first man to get a chance to fight for the title.
Jack Johnson was lucky.
He wasn’t killed by Jack Blackburn Blackburn, who trained Lewis hated Jack Johnson and to killed a person before and he had a terrible temper and as a lightweight uh I mean, as you know, the the weight divisions weren’t in Forest, so he’d fight heavyweights yeah.
I always thought Blackburn would make a great subject for a book as well.
No one’s written a book about him, yeah that that’s right and he there’s Snippets of information about him, but he he was um.
The story about him was, he was in a Jack Johnson called him.
He was in prison in Philly and he said I need three grand to get out to pay the bail and Blackburn paid it, and that was his payroll after 10, 12 15 years of fighting.
That was his savings.
That’S a lot of money back then yeah and when, when Blackburn was in prison, you know three.
Four years later, he asked Johnson and Johnson said no, but I gave you my life savings well you’re, an idiot.
Then I didn’t force you to.
I just asked you yeah and Blackburn: you know the smoke was coming out of his ears, so there was a story.
Youve probably heard this at when Lewis was training and and uh.
I don’t know if it was for schelling, but it was the pson lakes and Lewis came, uh Johnson came up to the camp and he was telling him.
You know Blackburn’s a loser and he can’t do this and you didn’t realize Blackburn was like a father to Lewis and right and all of a sudden, he heard the unmistakable click of of a of a trigger being pulled and he turned he was about to turn And Blackburn just said, it’s me leave or die and and and Lewis said he had no doubt that Blackburn would have blown his head off.
Well, I’ve never heard that story, but of course you know, we know that that Blackburn did go to prison for murder, so he was certainly capable right and you know when they first brought Lewis to him.
He wasn’t gon na take him because he said they’ll never give another black guy a chance after what Jack Johnson done, yeah right and it was a valid concern at the time, obviously yeah and – and he said to him – Blackman said you know – I didn’t really care About what he did, sexually or or with his wives, my argument was the way he screwed people over financially and because of that, they just weren’t promoters.
Weren’T gon na allow us to get a chance again ever because of him, and so there was a lot of enity amongst him and – and I know Johnson got along with McVey there’s a story.
I don’t know if it’s in your.
I think it’s in your book, where uh uh Sam hands a key to Sam McVey and it was for the ugliest fighter, was what was that about yeah? That was, I can’t remember.
You know I haven’t gone back and Revisited that for so long but yeah.
Basically, it was that uh.
There was a key that somebody passed to some started, this tradition of passing to the ugliest man they that they’d met and uh and Sam got that key and when he got to when he got to.
I think it was France where he met uh McBay for the first time and he turned to his friends: Hey where’s where’s that key.
You know, he’s finally found some guy to give pass it to.
He thought he thought McVey was the ugliest man they’d ever seen.
A lot of people said that about MC.
I don’t think it was fair, but it’s funny.
Yeah, funny and M was in the corner of Johnson when he fought um, Jeff yeah.
I think actually McVey and and Johnson uh developed a friendlier relationship, obviously than Johnson did with either Joe Janette or Sam Langford right yeah.
I don’t know why, but those those two seem to hit it off to some degree.
What you know the interesting thing in reading about uh Sam is that he was trained by George budge buyers and yeah.
I almost brought that up when you raised the name of buyers, um yeah, Langford credits, George buers, who was, I believe, was the lightweight uh with um right.
You know at one point buers told me he needed to uh he needed to learn how to hit.
You know with power and and buyers he credits buyers for teaching him how to how to set on his punches and get his body into it and so yeah.
I guess you know it sounds like and Gans when he fought Gans and defeated him to you know in a big surprise, uh in 1903, uh Gans met with Sam and showed him a few things as well, but I think more than anybody he credits buyers with Um showing him how to hit with power.
Well, the story I I read was that they’re at a bar after and was full of himself and and uh and buer said.
Why are you so full of yourself and he said? Well, I beat Joe G.
He said you didn’t really beat him.
He said you won the fight because he fought a 20 round fight last week right and he’s exhausted you if he’d been rested, you wouldn’t have had a chance yeah, but I hit him and I hit you, you did.
You know what you were doing in there.
What do you well, you know if you think about it, Sam had only when he fought when he fought uh Gans for that title.
You know.
Sam had only been a professional for a year or a little over a year, because he didn’t turn professional himself until 1902, so see yeah.
He was very raw at the time he fought, so it was.
It was a very big surprise that he beat Gans on that particular occasion.
But, like you say, Gans supposed.
The story is that he had a long fight and a long train ride and and supposedly were playing cards, and I don’t think he had much concern or worry over having to face Langford at the time this young man but um yeah.
They obviously never fought again either um.
No, it’s interesting because Gans, as you said and buyers, were teaching them things in the bar right.
But what really struck me clay was the fact that Langford didn’t say: oh forget it.
You just won’t give me credit.
He actually meant.
Oh okay, I understand you’re right, I mean he was willing to accept it and learn yeah.
He clearly was he was.
He was thankful for the input and advice that he received and and acted upon it.
The the the most touching thing I read in your book that that brought me to tears was when I think it was in England where he stepped off the curb when a white man was walking towards him right, he was so used to what was the story Of that yeah, the story was when he arrived in England in 1907.
You know this.
A couple Sports writers were sent to the boat to meet him and uh, bring him over to the club and uh when they were walking along.
You know Sam was was drawing a lot of attention because he he had some really loud checkered suit outfit on, but but when he would see um men approaching from the opposite direction: white men approaching from the opposite direction.
The sports writers noticed that he immediately stepped off the curb out into the street until they passed him and he did that a couple times and they asked him what he was doing and you know he he’s, they told him.
You don’t have to do that and he and he was very surprised because well you he said well Back Back Where I Come From we’re not allowed to walk with white folk.
You know so yeah what a commentary huh yeah that that just I mean it chokes me up today to treat to do that to another human being espec.
You know even four years later he was when he went over there to fight um.
I think it was Bill Lang if I’m not mistaken uh.
He, the national sporting club, invited him to a dinner to attend a dinner with the Press.
You know where they were just you know, trying to drum up uh press for the uh upcoming fight.
You know, and Sam declined, the invitation.
You know he.
He just basically said that uh he wouldn’t be comfortable there as the only black party amongst all those white folk and that uh you know he and he said he knew his place.
You know so yeah.
You know – and that was the same fight of course, that uh you know there were many.
The majority of the of the crowd wanted were rooting for Lang, the white man and um.
You know they they brought out the white gloves, they didn’t have.
They didn’t have black gloves for the fight they they fitted the fighters with white gloves, and the idea was that the that the white gloves were gon na show up more effectively against the black skin yeah.
That’S on the cover of the book right.
That’S the fight! Yeah wow yep remarkable fighter, and you you also had that great story in the book that made me smile makes you want to shout out happiness, the one where they said we appoint the referee, oh yeah, he again when he first went to the National sporting club In 1907 they were talking about the fight and uh.
You know they they were going to need to select the referee and Sam said.
I brought my own referee and of course they were incredulous.
What do you mean? You brought your own referee, that’s not allowed and then Sam said hell his right fist.
I said well here it is right here.
This is my referee, the one that gives the right decision every time.
How can you not love a man like that? I mean yeah.
I know man, he had a great sense of humor, very witty I mean he was.
He was a sports writer’s dream in terms of interviews, very quotable, yeah and a very bright man.
I mean very smart man and it just you know, someone should have looked after him when his when the career was over rather than let him drift.
I mean when he retired what happened with his wife and and his daughter.
I mean he did he divorce his wife, or did she divorce him? She divorced him um, I you know, I don’t know exactly what was going on with them.
I know, for one reason, of course, was that he kept fighting long after she wanted him to quit and um.
You know in fact went blind in one eye and you know, and he and he started drinking quite a bit towards the end of his his boxing career um.
You know Time time travel to Australia or England or France gone for months and months at a time.
Um, you know they just uh, I guess they drifted apart and um yeah.
She divorced him and uh.
You know, but later in life, when he was his great-granddaughter remembers.
Sam coming over to her mother’s house, his granddaughter or his his daughter’s house and uh.
You know Sam would come for a visit.
There, it’d be a big to-do.
Everybody who knew who Sam Langford was in that neighborhood and uh.
You know his his wife would be there.
You know they they they were cordial to each other and she had many great memories of their times together and the time they spent the year and a half they spent as a family together over in Australia.
So you know so they had a little bit of a reconnection at some point, but they never again lived together.
You know, of course, he he ended his life in a private nursing home.
You know about six other patients in a house or so forth and uh um, but you know he stayed in touch with his family and there was some there was that relationship still and and Dempsey uh admitted that the only fighter he was afraid of was Sam.
Lanford yeah, that’s true, I mean you get the of course.
The Dempsey fans don’t want to hear that today and say: ah, he was just being kind and so forth, but but again gunboat Smith who fought both of them said Sam, would have defeated him easily and I think uh you know Dempsey when he had an opportunity To fight him he was 21 years old and yeah.
He said he was the only man he ever really feared was Sam Langford because he knew he would flatten him yeah, and this was John to Barbara wling – didn’t care about him as man urw maner.
At that time, in New York yeah and at that particular time, I’m sure he probably would have flattened him, because you know Dempsey was not that experienced as a uh as he became later of course and um.
But you know what the same thing is: Sam was Sam was blind in one eye at the time, though too, but but he was still very dangerous.
You know, what’s really remarkable to me.
Lou is the fact that guys like Sam Langford and uh Harry greb, possibly the two greatest fighters in in history both had over 300 professional fights recorded and both fought the last third of those blind in one eye.
Unbelievable, it’s remarkable yeah, it’s more than remarkable.
It’S unfathomable, I mean two eyes right still a dangerous sport, even if you’re alltime Elite like they were, but one eye I mean it it your balance is off.
You can’t see shots coming well and, of course, in the in the end, when Sam won that heavyweight title in Mexico, you know at the end of his career, he could hardly see out the other eye.
They were he.
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