AIR DATE:
EPISODE: Episode 1
Transcribed
[, Music, ] foreign [, Music, ] boxing writer and historian, and today we have a special treat.
We have Hall of Fame International Boxing Hall of Fame promoter, actually he’s a member of eight bucks or eight hall of fames, and he is if there’s a Mount Rushmore of boxing promotion of sports promotion.
Russell pelletozana he’s not only one of the greatest boxing promoters ever to have lived going back 300 years, but he’s one of the greatest promoters, Sports promoters of all time in any sport and extremely prolific and described by my surrogate father, Angela Dundee.
As the only honest man in professional boxing and that’s saying something, as I said, he’s a member of the international Boxing Hall of Fame he’s also a winner of the prestigious James J Walker, uh, boxing writers, association of America award for long ameritorious service to boxing the List of Fighters world champions that he’s promoted is like looking at Jack, Nicholas’s Victory page on the PGA website.
It’S it’s endless, so this is just some just a few uh Mike Rossman light heavyweight champions, Marvin Johnson Matthew, sod, Mohammed and Michael Spinks, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad Prince Charles Williams.
He also promoted Marvelous Marvin Hagler uh World Heavyweight Champion Ernie Terrell, the incredible former World bantamweight champion Joe Jeff Chandler, who not enough people, know about Robert Bam, Bam, Hines, former Junior middleweight champion who beat my hero, Matthew Hilton, and he he published his books every years Ago, which just won the West Coast, boxing writers association book of the year – and this book is called thirty dollars and a cut.
I and you can’t say you have a boxing Library.
If you don’t have this book, this book is very evocative and it’s absolutely magnificent, and we are pleased this punch to Welcome Hall of Fame promoter Russell Peltz, to our show today glad to be here Lewis.
Looking forward to this.
Thank you me too.
You know I.
I there’s bunch of bunch of book where you laugh out loud and then there’s Parts where you’re just terrified and the laugh out loud Roger.
Is it um you said about in the eye exam he didn’t fail because he couldn’t see he failed it because he couldn’t read.
Well, that’s what his manager told everybody that was probably a combination that he couldn’t read and he couldn’t see you.
You know the story of Frank’s animal Fletcher, who you knew obviously and and um with fighting Juan World Dan and after he got knocked down.
He did a backward summer so and in between rounds, the referee said: do you know where you are and there it sees his Palace? He said I’m in New York and so Padilla wanted to stop the fight and his manager said no, no, he didn’t know where he was before the fight.
You know geography is not a strong point, but uh yeah Frankie was a trip yeah.
I was speaking about him with with uh Tim Witherspoon a couple nights ago and um.
I I have a question asking about Philadelphia Angelo Dundee, who was from Philadelphia, as you well know, said, that there’s tough they’re super tough and then there’s Philadelphia, tough guys that you could hit with your best shot, and they just laugh at you.
Where does this come from? Why have Philadelphia Fighters traditionally not only been great world champions, but so incredibly, tough? Well, I think the city was fortunate to have the man in my opinion, Who was the greatest promoter who ever lived that nobody knows about, and that was Herman Taylor.
Herman Taylor did the leg work.
He was the real promoter of the first Dempsey, Tony fight, that Drew 120 000 people right in the rain and 26 years later in the same stadium, Marciano Walcott.
He did Joe Lewis um.
So you know he kept boxing going here from.
I think he started in 1914 and he his last card was in 1976.
wow.
So there was a lot of opportunities here and with the migration of the good black fighters from the south to Philadelphia.
They got here before they got to New York, see it’s a tough.
It was a tough Hard Scrabble City, Philly, known more probably for its top contenders than world champions.
But of course you’re talking about a time when it was tougher to become a world a real world champion right.
Well, Luke Taylor was one of the all-time greats he’s from Philadelphia and and uh gave Benny Leonard.
The fight of his life twice yeah, and I was just looking at a very old book I have from the 1800s Owen.
Ziegler was a fighter in the 1880s.
Was another great Fighters, so the history of Philadelphia, but I mean you could say reason.
Is it fair to say that Philadelphia has produced as many great quality Fighters as any other place in the world, but not more along with New York yeah? But yes, but New York, I don’t know how many well, they could say the same about Philly.
How many were born and bred in New York um.
You could say that about Philly Frazier, coming from North Carolina Briscoe from Georgia, Boogaloo Watts from South Carolina um.
But I think they established themselves in Philly a lot earlier than they established themselves in New York.
New York was like the Las Vegas of its day, where all the top fighters would go to because Madison Square Garden was the venue but um.
I don’t know I’m prejudiced toward Philly.
Well, you you made me smile in the book when you mentioned briefly Al bummy Davis, who was my father’s favorite fighter along with Joe Lewis, the great lightweight from um.
You know there’s a great story, Joe Granby, who was I hate, to call him the greatest black manager of all time, but he managed Bob Montgomery and he was very close with Herman Taylor right and um.
They wanted to put Montgomery in with Bobby Davis in the garden and um, but he was already scheduled to fight Beau Jack for the title two weeks later now.
This was in the day before the 32.
The 30-day um suspension.
If you got knocked out, you couldn’t fight for 30 days, so Mike Jacobs, Grammy didn’t want the fight of Mike Jacobs, the promoter at the Garden guaranteed him that no matter what happened in the bummy Davis fight, which was a 10 rounder, he would still fight Bojack.
Two weeks later for the title and of course, Montgomery got knocked out in the first round in front of 16 or 17 000 people.
Two weeks later he beat Bojack for the world lightweight title in the same ring in front of 18 000 people wow, I mean that’s, how that’s what that’s the kind of man Mike Jacobs was, and that’s where boxing was back in those days, yeah Bobby Davis had A tremendous uh left hook, my father was rushed because here in Toronto, where the anti-Semitism was high, all it said in the newspaper here with Jew boxer dead, and that was it.
He had to call his cousins in New York to get the newspaper sent up here.
You know to find out about the um about the history of him.
I hope we’re not heading back to those days.
I I hope not either I mean there was recently the SEMA lisenthal museum opened up here, Toronto Holocaust Museum recently, and there was a survivor of Treblinka.
Who said you know I’m in my 90s and I remember coming into the world in a concentration camp.
It just seems now I’m going to be leaving the world and things that are any better, so yeah, but I I you know I agree with you.
Did you encounter any of that racism in your career when you were starting out or during your career? No, I I really didn’t.
I never did not that I can think of now right.
One of the things that terrified me reading in your book was, and it’s like, a punch in the stomach when you had your office firebombed, and I mean I – I don’t know how: how do you we, you must have just gone numb.
How do you take that in over time? Well, we were at Foxwoods, my wife, and I we just settled in to a beautiful Suite that Jimmy Burchfield had given.
I was at that time.
I was um the guy in charge of making fights for ESPN.
This was in June of 99 and we’ve been out.
You know having a good time with the crew Teddy Atlas, Bob Papa Robbie byner, and we went back to our room.
I guess I got the call about one in the morning for Maureen Sachs, my vice president, who lived in the building and she was screaming into the phone that the office had been firebombed.
So naturally you know we left and drove back through the night, but uh.
You know we never found out who it was.
A lot of people had had theories.
I lost um.
One whole room was destroyed, a boxing memorabilia one-of-a-kind, stuff um.
I read that, but you go on, you go on it’s um.
We had windows installed the kind that you can’t throw a bomb through now right, but uh.
You know it um! Well, the the boxing memorabilia.
I mean that’s more than boxing it’s it’s American and world history and irreplaceable.
I had a kid Gavilan Gil Turner poster which I’ve never seen before when they fought for the Welterweight Title in 1952.
At the time, the crowd of over 39 000 was the largest crowd ever to watch a world Welterweight Title Fight until Duran Leonard in Montreal in 1980.
.
I’Ve never seen one and I’ve never seen one to this day, and that was just one of many things.
Original covers of the Ring magazine, but what are you gon na? Do it’s yeah? Let’S move on.
You know one of the things that I I it almost irritates you, but it irritates me when, when talking to people in the media that they, the boxing’s dead UFC is where it’s at.
But when you look at the numbers you know, UFC does well the first time in, but then sort of Trends down or boxing always does well in in similar same locations.
Why doesn’t the media get that? I don’t? Boxing will always be around um, but I’m I see much more.
I see much more coverage of UFC, especially at ESPN, which is invested in boxing they’re invested in UFC too.
But when I look on their website, when I look at the TV I see that they give much more coverage to the UFC than they do to boxing um, I’m not listen.
There will always be big fights in boxing.
What I’m worried about is the middle class.
Hey I I couldn’t.
If I were getting into boxing today, I couldn’t do it because an independent promoter cannot exist today in a major town in a major sports Town.
There’S too much competition for the entertainment dollar and the biggest problem with boxing is that um 95 percent of the income is generated by five percent of the people.
We’Ve got top rank Eddie Herr now Heyman and Golden Boy controlling just about every inch of television.
When you had USA Network and they gave shows to Art palulo Bill, kazerski Ron weathers Mike acree me Murad Muhammad, I mean they spread the wealth, so you could develop Fighters.
The problem is, it might look good in the display window, but the cupboards are bare.
I hate to be a downer right when boxing was so wonderful when it was so important and one of the things that I think really hurts boxing – that nobody really understands is the death of newspapers, because I think I said this in the book.
If you were a Philadelphia, Eagles fan until you bought the newspaper, and you went to read about the Eagles, but as you turn the pages, there would be a story on the fight coming up.
So you’d have that crossover.
Now, if you’re a Philadelphia, Eagles fan, you go to the Eagles website, there’s no crossover.
The only people go into the boxing websites are the Die, Hard fans and that that’s a big problem right and it’s caused by, I guess, by the internet in part.
But I remember growing up if I’m sort of an oddity in Canada, because I didn’t care for hockey, I like boxing and baseball, and that’s all that mattered to me.
It’S still the same thing, but there used to be writers.
I mean yourself when you wrote for the bulletin that you wanted to be the boxing writer and there were guys that specialized only in that, oh and then we had we had a boxing writer.
We had a golf writer, we had a track and field writer.
We had a college basketball, pro basketball.
We had a writer who covered horse racing, one who covered auto racing.
I mean come on it was.
It was a different world.
You you go downtown on a Saturday night and and the Sunday papers one seats all week.
All week the papers would come out with three or four different editions, but on Saturday night there’d be like six or seven additions.
So you go down to town to a newsstand around eight o’clock and you’d pick up the paper and it would say, Phillies leave.
Milwaukee 5-3, after six Innings right.
That’S that’s how important newspapers were back then? Well, I remember when Pacquiao fought Mayer and leading up to it for a couple months here in Toronto.
The Toronto starred no coverage not of the fight and no coverage after the fight.
When I spoke to the editor there, your attitude was who cares and I looked up the editor who I spoke to and they’re coming from the automotive section in the newspaper you know and Angela Dundee was saying you should have asked, do you know any, do you Know who these guys are? I mean it’s sad because, as you know, in the 20s and 30s and 40s it was boxing and baseball were the two top sports professional, yes yeah and just incredible now I I have a question Angela used to say, and you were brilliant at this.
You used to say the art of building a prospect into a champion is a lost art, and no one did that better than you.
Why is it a Lost Art? Is it because, as you said in your book, guys just want safe managers just want slave fights for their Fighters? Well, when he says building a champion, he means doing it the right way right at a time when it meant something to be a world champion.
Today.
It’S a it’s.
It’S amazing! It’S um! Everybody wants to be undefeated.
I think Floyd Mayweather really cemented that in everybody’s mind in the 21st century, so you have guys that are worlds.
You know why isn’t this guy? In the Hall of Fame? He won five titles in six different divisions.
I mean it’s, it’s let’s say you have four.
Let’S just say you have four lightweight Champions: wbow, ibf and WBC in the 1950s.
Those those guys there would be one of them would be the World Champ.
The other seven would be one two, three, four five six so you’d have so in the 50s.
The number five Contender would be fighting the number six contender, even though today is a world champion.
So we’re not Conestoga is not inducting.
The number five lightweight Contender from the 1950s, but today they’ll induct, a guy who’s, got three belts and four different divisions, because it sounds better.
It’S just it’s.
It’S it Waters down the sport, it’s Lou, it’s ludicrous! It really is – and I think I think the amount of world champions is probably, if not the biggest reason for boxing’s loss of popularity, but it’s in the top one or two yeah you’re right.
Absolutely because I have friends of mine that have watched fights and they just said, I there’s one world: how can there be four or five Champions? It’S it’s ridiculous! It’S like whatever it’s like if the NBA, if there were no playoffs – and I say this all the time and each division winner walks around saying – I’m the World Champ, that’s what boxing is yeah, it’s frustrating because, as you know, in the 20s, 30s 40s 50s one Undisputed champion – and there are eight divisions you knew who the names were from flyweight up to heavyweight, and that was it and sorry go ahead.
I don’t know I used to be when Carlos Ortiz was lightweight champion the early 60s.
I could name all the lightweight Champs backwards from Carlos Ortiz back to Benny Leonard.
I couldn’t even tell you who the lightweight Champs are today.
I don’t you know it’s the world.
The term world champion is so meaningless today, it’s all about the money and listen.
I think it’s great that these guys are being I hate to use the word overpaid, but because boxing is such a dangerous sport, but the money they’re getting paid is Monopoly money.
It doesn’t equate to television ratings or paid crowds.
It’S just ESPN in the zone and Showtime hemorrhaging money and – and I don’t know why – maybe they think one day it’ll turn around and the ratings will change, but everybody the other day was going crazy.
Because what fight was it a week or two ago that did 1.
2 mil oh Tia, Fimo Lopez? Did they do a billion? They did? A million buys okay, so Ollie Spinks from the Superdome in 1978 to 90 million homes, wow and we’re doing cartwheels, because Lopez and um Taylor just did a million, buys that’s incredible.
Do you think I mean that’s one of the problems I mean.
Pbc is also hemorrhaging money and you know I mean growing up.
I was like privileged to grow up with Angela as a mentor, but you know one of the problems he said is, and I guess you’d agree.
Everyone wanted Floyd Mayweather money when Floyd Mayweather came and everyone wanted Ali money, but not everyone gets that kind of money.
That’S extremely rare, but now you have all these Fighters asking for money way out of proportion to what they’ve accomplished, or does it really come down to asses in the seats? If you draw the fans, you get the money and if you don’t that’s just the way it goes.
If these Fighters had to depend on ticket sales, they’d start they would starve right and if and if and if showtime and the zone and ESPN were actually paying.
What’S what fights are worth they’d still they’d still starve.
I mean they’d make these some money, but Hey, listen! That’S great! That they’re, making four or five six million dollars fighting what we used to see every Friday night on the Friday Night Fights but don’t turn around and tell me that they’re all-time greats, because it’s just that’s.
How can you compare a world champion today that, when Tia female Lopez, Bilo manchenko, I was reading where he could have beat Willie Pep? I was reading that on the internet, yeah and it’s it’s there’s a whole generation of boxing fans that think this is what boxing always was like this, that’s because of the internet, because they make these top 10 lists.
This brings me to another question.
I have a few, this is the top 10 list and you look at a guy and he’s who’s making the list he’s 22.
.
Well, how could you possibly know top ten you’re eliminating everyone? You know before 1990.
you’re, not he’s not in class yeah, Johnson and or Jeffries or or Benny Leonard Lou tender.
All these guys Luke Taylor.
There isn’t a lightweight today in the world that would have gone more than two or three rounds with it.
I mean he would have wiped out that whole Division if he were around today, so one one of the things I noticed online with your comments and it drives me nuts too, and you were there, so they can’t I.
This is what kills me that you were at these flights, you promoted them, and people still argue with you.
It’S in it’s insane like the first fight with William Willie Monroe, Willie Warren Monroe, and he convincingly really beats Hagler and beats him up, and then these idiots, these revisionists come online and say Agra was robbed.
I mean how how I mean.
Don’T you think comments such as that hurt this morning? That’S why I wrote the book right.
I know that that book is 100, accurate and one guy said I saw a tape of the Hagler Monroe fight.
Oh you did really.
Where did you get that? Because there was a snowstorm that night and our film crew couldn’t get there, but all you have to do is read the newspaper Stories the next day about what Hagler said and how he admitted that he wasn’t there.
Yet you know people, that’s.
That was one of the impetuses for writing the book.
You read things that people say they act like they were there and they weren’t right.
I mean I lived this, I mean I listen when bubaloo Watts got that decision over Hagler, the first one, which was a bad decision and the Blue Waters from Philly, and I was the promoter and I was disgusted.
I looked at the one of the judges from Philly and I I said what are you doing and the president of the spectrum said: how can this happen so? And Google, who watched to this day doesn’t like to talk to me, doesn’t want to talk to me, but you know you don’t have to win a fight.
10-0.
The Yankees don’t have to win 20-0 to win a game.
They can win a game two to one.
When the fight was over, you knew Hagler won right, wasn’t the worst to see it wasn’t like Everett escalera, but there was no question who won the fight? It was Hagler, but the the Willie Monroe fight was a completely different story.
I don’t I hate to use this this uh slogan.
Every dog has its day his day, because Willie Monroe was no dog, but that was his greatest night.
I love that line about the Boogaloo Watts fight, but it wasn’t the worst decision I’ve seen, but it wasn’t a good one either.
You know that was a great line and and uh I was embarrassed.
I you know I remember going to Sam Silverman after the fight.
The promoter from Boston yeah, who was sitting outside the dressing room – I said Sam, I’m sorry uh and he looked at me now.
Boston was also known for bad decisions.
Right.
He said Russell, don’t worry about it.
I’Ve seen it before yeah.
I I remember at the hall of fame when, when uh Pacquiao fought Bradley the first time and Michael Bufford, the next day said well, this is part of boxing and it’ll happen again and someone yelled, but it shouldn’t and people have to bear in mind.
I guess that after the fight uh Pacquiao said I’m not angry at Tim Bradley he’s not the judge, and he faced such abuse and the same thing with Boogaloo wants.
It’S not his fault that the judges did that, but why is it just incompetent? Judging people tend to read into it that you know the mob was involved or they were paid off, but this is just the judges just done it wrong.
Um, the fight wasn’t big enough to involve the mob right.
I think that I think I think the judges were just homers figured that the promoter me would want it.
That way would want the Philly guy.
You know insulting the fans right, um uh, the only listen, as I said in the book.
The only fight that I promoted that I knew was crooked, was the Everett escalera title fight in which the Philly judge took money to vote against Everett.
That’S the only one.
I know was, you know, 100 crooked.
I don’t care what anybody says.
I was there.
I know what happened.
Did I see the money change hands? No, you never see the money you don’t have to.
You know you look at that fight and you see that Everett won between 10 and 12 out of 15 rounds and you you know you look at the history of the Philly judge and you see that the people that were in the building that night and remembering How naive I was, I wasn’t even 30 years old yet and how we just got taken for a ride.
Wow it was Tyrone Everett the biggest.
I don’t want to say disappointment because he was a magnificent fighter, but the biggest upset you would say in the fact and how his life ended, that he had such a great future in front of him yeah.
I guess you could say that I you know.
I hate to I hate pound for poundless.
I hate you know, comparing fighters from different eras, you don’t know like Jeff Chandler was 28.
when he had to when they took his license away.
So who knows, and he was still learning on the job right.
I lost his title because he had one arm that day but um you could go back through the history of boxing Percy Bassett.
The great featherweight from the early 50s was 25 when he suffered a detached retina back in the days before you had those operations.
So you know, Philly is, is strewn with those kind of stories and that’s why Philly Rocky it’s a blue collar town, it’s like it’s like Henry Cooper.
He never won the heavyweight title.
He was probably the most one of the most popular fighters in England right Benny Briscoe, never won the title or Gil Turner, but they were two of them Gypsy, Joe Harris, there’s a guy who could have been great.
Who knows you know the careers were cut short, but that’s what made Philly well, I wanted to ask you about Gypsy, Joan glad you brought him up with a fantastic fighter.
Fascinating person and you’re blind in one eye fought most of his career like that, and then the the commissioner is it McCall who just comes in and says? Okay, you can’t fight anymore yeah.
Well, what what really it was, but it was, he lost his license before he tried to get his license back when McCall was in well here’s what happened, they knew Gypsy.
Joe was blind.
You know you got doctors examining one of the chief doctors that the athletic commission was an eye doctor, but Gypsy Joe was a loose cannon and he was always late.
We they used to bring the fighters in a week ahead of time before the big fights they called it for a pre-fight physical.
You know the stethoscope and all that yes, but it was really to have a press conference with the Press and Gypsy was always late and Herman Taylor, who was promoting some of his after he lost to Griffith his first fight in the summer of 68.
He was coming back that November to fight Manny Gonzalez from Texas in his next fight and Herman Taylor was promoting the fight.
Now.
Herman Taylor was connected.
I mean you almost had to be in those days right, um you couldn’t get back in the day.
You couldn’t get a job as a dealer in Atlantic City in any of any of the underground blackjack tables, without going through Herman tail.
That’S How Strong he was anyway.
So Gypsy comes late to the press conference.
The pre-fight, physical and Herman Taylor is throwing a fifth, so he goes up to Gypsy says you know, son.
You can’t do this.
You know you got to get your act together.
I’M paraphrasing and Gypsy Joe says, go f yourself.
You know get out of my face.
Well, all of a sudden, they were discovered that Gypsy, Joe was blind.
So draw your own conclusions right well, people.
I don’t think fans generally realize that people that were mob Fighters didn’t really have a choice because the mob chose them and you look at a guy.
Like Johnny Saxton, who you know had the stuffing beat out of him and then was just discarded.
You know by the mob, after after his usefulness and the same as when people would say, Frank Sinatra played marble and clubs.
Well, all clubs at it during his time were mob right.
They were the only ones of the disposable income enough of it to to um, keep them on, but now Larry Merchant.
Another great Philadelphia and great writer um said that uh the mob left boxing and then they were replaced by the sanctioning bodies.
Would you agree with that? What was that question? He said.
I agree.
Yes, Larry Merchant said the mafia exited boxing, and then they were replaced by the sanctioning bodies.
This multitude of sanctioning bodies – you know, as you mentioned earlier, I ibf WBC wva WBO, and he said all these sanctioning bodies are just criminals, gouging money from Fighters and managers and promoters they’re killing it they’re killing it, and you know what it’s never going to get To there why can’t they get together, they’re never going to get together.
None of the heads of the bodies are going to want to take a second seat to ever become you know they say the WBC is the strongest come on it’s.
I don’t know any other business that could be.
That could be run like this.
It’S it’s the wild west and for years, hey.
That was.
That was one of the Intriguing things about boxing.
It was the wild west, but even though you can show examples of Fighters who had to wait like Archie Moore 99 of the fights that had to be made were made, and they didn’t, you know we didn’t marinate them for two or three years.
We marinated them for two or three weeks.
You know people are going Gaga about Crawford and Spence and it’s a big fight in today’s world, but is it any bigger than Emile, Griffith and Louis Rodriguez, who fought four times within three years? I I mean it’s listen, Dick Tiger would win a win, a fight, he’d be he’d, beat ace, Armstrong, he’d, be Florentino, Fernandez, he’d be Henry Hank, and then he got a shot at Gene Fulmer right.
That’S the way it was yeah, you earned your shot and you got it there wasn’t all this ducking and years going by yeah.
You could show me examples, you know the baloney, they talk about Ray Robinson Duck and Charlie Burley, and these other ridiculous stories that pop up from people who are like 40 years old right.
What do they know about? What do any of us know right? You mentioned two great Fighters: uh from Angelo, stable, Florentino Fernandez and his favorite fighter.
A lot of people don’t know was was um, Louis Rodriguez, but just one of the most underrated fighters.
In boxing history I was at now I saw three of the four fights.
The first one, with what 10 rounder with Griffith I thought, Rodriguez won.
Okay, the second one in LA for the title Rodriguez didwin.
I saw the third one live.
It was June, 8th of the 63.
My dad took me to Madison Square Garden was a split decision.
One judge had a 10-5 Rodriguez, which is what I have it as a kid, but they gave it to Griffith the only one that I know that Griffith really won was the fourth one in Las Vegas.
I saw that on TV, but given those decisions, the legacy of Rodriguez and griffith could be completely reversed right.
One of the ways that I like to judge a fighter – and it’s in a book called the sour, the sweet and sour sign.
Something like that.
What the what the champion did in his post Championship days? Okay! So if you look at the post Championship days of both Griffith and Rodriguez, who were not big punchers, which meant they had to win decisions and they won them on the road in hostile territories, I mean come on who’s.
The first of all guys.
Don’T even do that today I mean why do I have to fight him in his backyard before casinos? Everybody fought somebody in somebody’s backyard, but they I mean Rodriguez.
What was his record like 105 wins and seven losses, something yeah yeah Angela’s favorite fighter.
He was a fighter that influenced Muhammad Ali tremendously and Angela told me when he when he was fighting monzon.
He said after the 10 Rounds 10th round.
Excuse me he said your head just run, stick and move you mean benvenuti net benfenuti you’re right, I’m sorry Nina! Thank you, Nino, Benford and and Lewis Lewis said, I’m gon na knock him out and Angelo grabbed him by his face.
You’Re not not comparing for nobody out he’s five times your size just run dab run and he goes out the next round and he he you know he gets caught.
Trying to slug gets knocked out comes back to the corner and says I guess I should have just followed your advice and we’re on an angel.
Just you know slaps himself in the head and Angelo.
You know he says I want to get him again.
What do you mean you want to get him again? You just had him in front of you didn’t listen to her first time, so it would.
It would drive nuts, you have a wonderful, a photo in your book of Harold Johnson um, the great light heavyweight champ and he fought uh Willie pastrano, who, I think was fifth choice to fight him.
Third choice: another two guys now what happened there? The other two guys fell out or moromina from Peru, the greatest Peruvian fighter.
Ever he did.
He suffered a detached retina, so he was out.
He was replaced by Henry Hank and I don’t remember why Hank was out and then they put in pastrano and I watched the fight as a kid and you know so me.
Okay, I was a Harold Johnson fan, I loved him.
He was my Boyhood aisle, but he didn’t lose.
That fight.
I mean it was just that it was just an outrageous decision, but Angelo listen.
I love the Angelo.
He was one of the great ambassadors for boxing ever, but just him being in the corner.
I said nobody knew skinny Davidson in Harold’s Corner, nobody knew Pat oliveried the manager, so they gave it to pastrano, I mean I mean and they weren’t even smart enough to have a return clause in the contract.
That’S how you know unsophisticated and then and Harold could never get a shot.
Meanwhile, he goes to Finland and beats a guy named pekkica Conan.
He goes to Germany and beats an undefeated guy named Luther Stengel.
I mean he was still beating world-class fighters in their backyards, but right he got old, he got old.
The consensus was that Johnson won that fight, as you said convincingly, and they just took it away from him, for whatever reason and and – and I guess you know having Angelo in your corner – certainly helps you know and having Chris as your brother, you know, doesn’t hurt Either no, they were two great guys, but Chris more so than Angelo Chris wonderful guy, but he Chris knew everybody in boxing he dealt with carbo and Palermo and all those guys and listen.
When Angelo came to Philly in 75, with Vinnie curto the fight Benny Briscoe at the Spectrum – okay, I remember going around at the end of the ninth round.
I went around to all the sports.
All the boxing writers at ringside said Briscoe hasn’t won a fight by decision.
I don’t know in four or five years, all his wins have been by NACA, that’s the kind of fight it was to me.
It wasn’t even close and they scored at a draw and Vinnie kurdo could have won the standing high jump that night when they called that fight a draw.
I’Ve got the film of it and you can see because Angelo was in the corner and I’m convinced that that’s why they gave the fight a draw.
Now they fought again in Boston when Benny was completely gone and then he beat him.
But you know it just happened.
I Angelo was a great guy and we used.
You know we didn’t talk too much about that fight when I’d be with him, but he knew how I felt about Willie pastrado.
He would give me all the time.
Well, um George chevalo would talk to me when, when Angelo was uh in the corner of Pete Rademacher, is that the correct pronunciation? What’S the pronunciation? I didn’t know he was in the corner and when he fought chevalo and and George said to me, you love, Angelo and he’s like a dad to you, but he had a lot of tricks up his sleeve and he knew how to influence people.
So when I asked Angela about this, he said yeah, I learned a lot of tricks from Ray herself.
For instance, we said when he couldn’t do it today, but when your fighter knocked the other guy down, our cell will get up on the ring apron with his Fighters.
Uh robe forcing the referee to speed up his count and he said Angelo said there were a lot of tricks like that in boxing where you can influence the ref and judges, and you know I learned from rare cell who learned from Doc Bagley and he said It goes on and on there’s a lot to do so, which brings me to something else.
I was watching the fights last night that Tim Zoo fight, which was on it, was on too late.
For me to be honest, but, and then the the fight before that uh earlier in the evening with Regis program and in progres corner, there were three guys talking to him and Angelo’s rule was one guy, so the fighter could only take in so much during the Corner what did you say the fighter? What Angelo said a fighter can only take in so much right right, he’s focused on what he’s doing so to have three guys talking is just a real trainer would tell the other two guys to shut up.
So do you think the quality of the training I know it has in Canada? It’S gone downhill, I mean for a long time, Canadian Fighters.
Obviously, if you want to make it, you got to go to the United States for any fighter and to get good quality trainers, but I’m for sure so these guys were lifers.
You got to there’s too many fathers involved.
Look at the aggravation they’re going through with tiafimo Lopez.
Right, I mean you know those guys Ray arcel, Whitey, benstein, Freddie Brown, chicky Ferreira.
These guys were like Charlie golden.
They were lifers.
This was they weren’t, like electricians, who came to the gym and trained guys at night.
You know this was their livelihood.
They knew what they were doing.
They knew all the tricks, Joe pelino and Philly really reddish.
I mean I grew up.
Yank dorum quenzel McCall Jimmy Arthur these Samsung.
These guys were these guys, knew what they were.
I remember sitting quinzel trained, Benny Briscoe for a while, and he had a young kid named Youngblood Williams, who was in the second or third fight at the Spectrum.
So this is like 74.
.
So what am I I’m? 20, I’m 27 and the first round starts and I’m I’m yelling instructions.
The odd one Williams you know from my pressie and quinzel quenzel turns to me and says: son sit in your seat.
Well, yeah be quiet! I’Ll take care of this.
You know today, you’ve done every Tom, Dick and Harry telling telling the guys what to do, and you know what some of them need to be told today.
Some of these trainers today now you’re watching.
Okay, so you’re talking about the TV fights last night, you know where I was last night.
I was at Bally’s Casino in Atlantic City, Sal musamichi was running an off TV show.
The fights were good.
There couldn’t have been 250 people in the 1500 seat Ballroom.
I had two kids on the show, because I’m just trying to help out kids to help them out Joey de Waco, a heavyweight who’s fought everybody.
He scored a one-round knockout and this kid that wants me to help him.
A junior welfare lead from New York from Ireland, Larry Friars, scored the biggest win of his career.
He’D beat a 14-1 kid named dimash nayaza.
I mean to see to see the joy when Larry friars’s face for for winning that BS title they gave him forget the title.
It was a big win.
Here’S a kid that the New York commission didn’t want to even license two fights ago and they finally did.
He won a fight in Sony hall and then he gets this biggest fight of his career.
I’M just interested in helping these kids, that’s what boxing is about for me today.
I got about a half a dozen kids who deserve to be matched according to their ability.
Larry Friars is now 13-6, but he had a better better resume than the guy.
He beat.
Who was 14-1 and we knew it and we knew it because he’s fought Ohio State, UCLA, Southern Cal Alabama, he didn’t fight.
You know the Little Sisters of the Poor, Centenary or Howard, not knocking those colleges, but some because too often these kids are sacrificed against Olympic gold, medalists or undefeated prospects, and while they get paid better money, they get their heads handed to them.
They deserve to be able to fight on their own level without the manager buying the fight, which is something that I think should be outlawed, but can’t be where I could go to a promoter and say: listen, I’ll pay, Larry, Friars I’ll pay, his opponent I’ll pay.
The opponent’s travel, Hotel, meals, Medicals I’ll pay Larry and get them a win.
That’S what’s going on this used to be in Arkansas used to be in Georgia used to be in South Carolina.
Now, it’s all over it’s in Philly.
How could this happen in Philly, where these kind of fights are being promoted? This was like the the Bedrock of tough fights.
Now even Philly managers are buying fights, so that’s where my career is now.
I haven’t had a promoter’s license since 2019.
, I’m just managing or advising some kids, and you know what it’s a lot of fun and I told my wife the other day.
I don’t have contracts with any of these kids there’s about six and I found out that over the years I had more trouble with Fighters.
I had under contract than I had with Fighters.
I had handshakes with.
I never had a contract with Jeff Chandler.
I never had a contract with Tony Thornton, the punching Postman.
They were, you know they were real people.
Well, your word was your bond.
People could trust you and I and I trusted them and and that’s the way it was.
But it’s just it’s.
It’S just crazy.
Today, it’s crazy, I mean look.
What’S going on with Ryan Garcia and the La Hoya come on.
They can’t get together, you’re talking millions of dollars.
You can’t get that together.
You can’t sit down like gentlemen and work it out.
You got lawyers, you know what, if Joey duaco decides to stiff me, which he won’t? What am I going to do, hire a lawyer and take him to court over six or seven hundred bucks forget it.
The lawyers are not going to get paid Millions to settle that the La Jolla Garcia case for what or what yeah it’s.
I know Angela had a big problem with Mike trainer with regards to Sugar Ray Leonard, because for a lot of reasons I mean stiffed them on money, but that’s a big reason yeah and he also said – and he forced him under pressure to sign a contract in The dress room, even though it was son Jimmy when he called said, don’t sign it and Angelo said I have to run it by my lawyer, Mike Turner said I don’t talk to lawyers, so a lawyer won’t talk to other lawyer, Brian and Angelo’s son.
Jimmy said, actually you’re only supposed to talk to a boy you’re not supposed to talk to Angela, but Mike trainer wanted to match up Ray Leonard and Thomas Hearns.
After they only had 13 or 14 fights and Angela said.
Let them both win a title and then have them fight and then make big money.
Why rack it now, and just all these Angela would tell me like you’re, saying all these peripheral people who know nothing about the sport who come into the sport and then um.
You know water, I can’t live with the fighters, I don’t live with them right and I can’t control who they talk to on the street, and you know the promoters always raping you.
The manager is always stealing your money, they put it in the air.
It’S like.
I don’t want to get into politics, but it’s like Trump.
It’S like Trump yeah.
I got screwed, I got screwed, they fake.
You know, and you hear it enough.
You hear it enough, they pound it into you right.
It becomes the truth.
You know the promoter is always the bad guy.
You know I wrote in my book.
We did 26 consecutive shows at the Blue Horizon over a three or four year period and we lost money on every single show.
Now, who’s going to believe that who’s going to believe that right, oh, come on Russell you’re laundering, money, you know it’s not true.
I mean I was there.
I know what happened.
I saved everything I have every profit and loss statement.
I have every bill.
I have every program, including all the Flash, Gordon programs from all my shows.
Those were wonderful programs.
Oh my God talk all day.
What was the fight you saw when you were 12 or 13 that made you fall in love with boxing.
You watch it.
It wasn’t.
You being on tele the first fight I saw on television when I was 12 was Gene Fulmer and Carmen basilio, their first fight from the Cow Palace in 1959 and wow.
You know, I think you know it was a vicarious thrill before I even knew the meaning of the word vicarious.
You know you picture yourself up there and you’re gon na, and I was certainly far from being a tough kid and I and I lived in an untoughed neighborhood, but as a present for my 14th birthday, my father took me to my first: live fight against my Mother’S protest and when I walked into conventional, I actually Angela was there with a fighter named dunvion who beat Len Matthews.
Who was the number one Contender at lightweight at the time, but December 6 1960 and I walked in there and the show hadn’t started yet, and I saw that ring with all the cigar smoke.
It was empty at the time.
The first fight I started, and it was it was so Majestic, and I said this is for I I had an epiphany before I even knew what that word meant, and I said to myself: this is going to be my life somehow and I was raised, and I didn’t go to school with any black kids till 10th grade: okay and the crowd there.
There’S 5 000 people – maybe 40 percent were black, maybe 20 percent Hispanic, and I I said this is so cool.
I’Ve never been in this atmosphere before and I went up to a guy.
I don’t know light-skinned guy and I I said something to him.
I don’t know what I said like who’s gon na as I was about to say something to him.
He turned to his his buddy and started speaking to him in Spanish.
I went holy look.
This was a whole new world, so I just that was it.
There was no stopping me and it’s funny.
I don’t know if you know who Chuck Hassett is yes, okay, Chuck Hassan knows as much about boxing history, certainly in Philly, as anybody Chuck Hassan and I were both born December, 9th 1946.
Okay, our fathers took us to the same first fight December 6.
1960.
.
The truth is Stranger Than Fiction: yeah, that’s fake! This year, absolutely that was meant to be um.
We we have a question for you from Britain, Carl W says Russell great story.
I I am based in the UK and just wondered if you ever worked with Frank Warren or Barry Hearn and what you think of Eddie Hearn as a promoter.
I think you’ve answered that already, but but we’ll save Eddie for last um.
I first I worked with Barry Hearn.
Well first, you know what Barry Hearn brought um, that’s the fight.
Was it Nigel Ben and Michael Watson, when Watson got messed up? Yes, yes, okay, so I had a kid on the show.
Undercard named Joe Alexander, it’s like, but Barry flew me over to London as a favor.
I guess he was stuck on Joe Alexander was turned down at the pre-flight physical.
That’S the day that at the weigh-in either I forget.
If it was day of the fight or the day before, I can’t remember, this was 1991.
, but Barry was nice enough not to kick us out, and we stayed for two or three days and went home so the next year he called for Tony Thornton to fight Chris Eubank in Glasgow, Scotland, which was a fight that some more than a few people, thought Thornton won anyway, when we got over there part of the deal I made Barry.
We agreed on everything, but I want to tell you one thing: one stipulation do not deduct from the purse the money you spent on keeping me in England when Joe Alexander got turned down.
I don’t want you to be agreed.
Barry was a gentleman.
He was a great guy and you know it was everything was terrific, um, Frank Warren.
I did business when Charles Brewer fought Joe kalzaki and Cardiff Wales in 2002.
I think, and it was a great fight.
Everybody was shocked because Brewer was a great.
It was an exciting fighter with a weak chin, but he stood up that night.
He stood up and I thought the fight was a little bit closer.
He certainly didn’t win it, but um.
It was a terrific experience.
I never had a problem with either God no problem.
You know, of course, Mickey Duff and I were close.
We had done a lot of business but um those guys over there got into it with each other.
As far as Eddie Hearn, I don’t have anything to say.
Yes, that’s true, it’s the old line.
If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say it.
So I don’t like I’ll just say this: he cost me Gabe, Rosado.
Okay, Rosado was my fighter and I lost him because of that he heard, and I you know I I would never do.
I would never talk.
I remember going into the dressing room one night at the arena in Philly, or the Spectrum at a Herman Taylor show trying to make a fight in the dressing room with guys that were fighting that night from her for Herman Taylor and Joe grahamby.
The old manager of Tex, Cobb and Thorne and Bob Montgomery said you don’t ever do that.
You don’t ever go into another promoter’s dressing, room and try and make a fight okay.
So if you’re not doing that, you certainly don’t go to another guy’s fighter and talk to him.
That’S like I said you can’t steal a fighter who doesn’t want to be stolen right, Angelo, never forgave, Sylvester Stallone.
He had a football player.
He was developing into a boxer and Simone said I’ll.
Take him for a couple months, just to use for Rocky and and um never paid Angela for him.
He said he would never return the fighter and kept saying to the guy you’re going to be an actor and then just let him go by the time he got back to Angela Angela wasn’t interested, but at the hall of fame, when they inducted Sylvester Stallone Angelo.
Wouldn’T shake his hand was that Lee catalito, I think it was yeah for us one night at the Sands Atlantic City in the 80s, big God, big God and Rich giacchetti, was in his corner and when they walked out to the introductions.
Catalito Richie told me the story: catalino turned to Richie and said: am I in tough tonight at the right times of times? Now Carl has another question.
I don’t want to make this British Centric, but best British fighter ever I have to go with Lennox Lewis.
Would you agree uh you hard to say you know what in 20 years, Lou there’s going to be guys in the NBA who are nine feet tall and they’re going to say the guys today couldn’t compete with them? In other words, was Lennox Lewis greater in his time than Randy Turpin was in his was he a bigger deal to British boxing than than Freddie Mills was Henry Cooper was yeah.
Sure Athletics Lewis is fighting Henry Cooper in 2010.
Yeah he’s going to kick his ass yeah.
If he’s fighting him in 1964, where training was different, traveling was different.
Eating was different and he probably wouldn’t be six six in 1964.
So right, no, I I’m not listen.
There are some terrific fighters in reese, Pernell Whitaker to me could have been a force in any era.
Iran could have been a could the Rand be like Williams, I don’t know, but he would have been he wouldn’t.
He, like Williams, wouldn’t walk him out, walk over.
I’M any more than Duran.
Would you know you can’t compare ears, you can’t you can’t say then you know suppose John L Sullivan could Lennox Lewis beat John L Sullivan okay, when are they fighting in 1890 in some corn field, where you had to take a train and you’re you’re fighting like This you know yeah yeah, on a floating barge and you’re, not and again, you’re, not six.
So it’s these are joke comparisons.
I stay.
I I used to get involved in them.
I mean nobody even talks about.
Do you know that it kid gavilion had about 125 fights against the biggest monsters of all time? Okay, he was never stopped.
He was on the deck three times three times he got up to win, two of them and the third one against Ike Williams.
He won in rematches, I mean imagine that uh, you know and these guys who won’t fight overseas, who won’t fight in somebody’s backyard.
I don’t want to get into it, I’m starting to babble.
He was not, in my opinion, the greatest British fighter of all time.
Well, I I worked for Linux.
I don’t think Lennox would himself declare himself to be the greatest British fighter.
No, I don’t think he was that kind of guy and – and I think if you, if I had to make a choice, I’d say Jimmy Wilde, yeah, the mighty Adam, who you know accept in his last fight when he got knocked out by Pancho Villa he I Mean he was unbeatable and in in the 60s, when they asked him about the flyweights.
Today he went it bombs.
They don’t go five rounds with me.
They go five rounds.
If I you know, if I’m drinking tea in between each round, but he said, there’s no way, these guys beat me and Benny Lynch, a Scottish Flyway champ.
So so yeah I mean, but especially in British boxing, it goes back 300 years.
So it’s hard to say categorically who was uh the best Carl said it’s about opinions and that no matter the area you fight in you have two arms and two fists.
But the thing is the the Styles change and like you’re, saying of John L Sullivan like this and the size and the height from the training and the travel and the eating.
And you know I mean you look at Marciano.
He trained in water up to his chin, to throw punches, so he could throw them as quickly when he was out of water, and Angelo said he was there the first day he walked into the gym to see Charlie Goldman and Goldman brought in a season heavyweight.
Who was a mover and he said, Marciano was falling down every time he threw a punch, he almost fell out of the ring and Angelo kept saying to Charlie.
I want to go to lunch, I’m hungry it’s almost 1, 30.
and Charlie says I got a minute left on The Watch 60 seconds I’ll treat you to a steak.
Just let him do it.
I got to watch.
I’Ve got to give him the whole minute and, as they look Marciano is, is so off balance he keeps falling.
He lands one right hook on this.
Guy drops him fractures his jaw, the guy doesn’t fight again and Angela said: what do you think and Charlie said I’ll? Take him, because you can’t teach that everything else could be taught.
You know, but Power like that, you just can’t teach now.
Marciano takes a lot of uh grow, a lot of yeah from from Modern Day film.
He was a Cruiserweight, stop it on.
You know he didn’t fight Nino Valdez.
Well, the Archie Moore beats Nino Valdez and yeah and Marciano beat Archie Moore.
I mean just cried after the fight right.
Cop was old.
Well, that was the best wall caught there ever was the wonderful Marciano that night yeah and people tend you as Angel would say you can only fight who’s around in your era.
At the time they’re willing to fight you and you can’t put down wall clock because he was the Undisputed World Heavyweight Champion.
So I mean that fight and Phil I mean Wilcox, probably still on the mat after that, is that the best right hand you’ve ever seen?
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