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EPISODE: Episode 1
On this episode of Ring Talk, boxing historian Lou Eisen dives into the classic fight between Sugar Ray Robinson and Jake LaMotta that took place on February 5th, 1943. Lou will discuss the techniques and strategies used by the fighters, and will provide an analysis of the fight’s outcome. He will also discuss the historical significance of this fight, which was the first of six of the best battles in boxing history. Lou will also provide insight into Sugar Ray Robinson’s career, and how the fight with LaMotta helped to shape it. So, join Lou for an in-depth look at one of the most iconic fights in boxing history!
#boxing #ringtalk #history #sugarrayrobinson #jakelamotta #fightanalysis #sports #podcast #february5th1943
Transcribed
Foreign boxing writer and historian – and this is ring – talk – and I just want to thank our producer – the lovely Eric Boyce and he is Lovely by the way uh, because the picture he showed at the beginning is from that fight.
That was from the LaMotta Robinson fight, and that was my mistake.
I said first fight, it’s the second fight, but you see Robinson going through the Roadster Robinson was very young at that point, and also this is unbelievable.
So you have this fight and lamada enters the ring at 160 and a half Robinson enters the ring on that day at 144.
Although um Chris Dundee, the promoter Angelo’s brother, said he actually invented the ring at 141 and a half and and um on uh.
On that particular day, February, 5th 1943, in Detroit at the Olympia, and they had a fight previously on on October, 2nd 1942, in which uh Robinson won that fight by unanimous decision.
What’S interesting about um these fight, if you look at the you know, early careers of Ray Robinson and lamada, you know 1940s in the 50s you’ll see each of them fighting four five six times a month.
That’S what was done, then top guys today will fight twice a year.
Last night, Tony Harrison hadn’t fought in a year and a half and and um Tim Zoo, hadn’t fought in a year, so it was quite common back.
Then excuse me for fighters to not.
You know to fight four five six times a month, because the money wasn’t as good as it is.
Today you had to fight more often, and you know you needed to make a living, and it was the best way to stay in shape, plus these were hungry.
Guys and they wanted to get to the top of the ladder in their respective weight divisions Robinson because of his height 511.
You know it’s a welterweight, but we knew he would go up.
People knew he’d go up the middleweight, he won the Welterweight Title against Tommy Bell, but it only stayed in the division, a short time and moved up to middleweight and he fought middleweight.
While he was a welterweight and he could do it because he had the power and more importantly, he had the skills and the speed.
However, uh at the time, I think it was the 30th fight uh when the second time they fought Sugar Ray Robinson was 40-0 and I think lamada had already had 36 37 fights and lost a couple, one sugary and Robinson.
Anyone who thinks lamada had never faced.
Anyone like lamanna The Motto wasn’t like any fighter you’ve seen today.
People compare him to Mike Tyson to him that doesn’t do him Justice.
Do you know when you see a fight begin and the fighters – and this is quite common Fighters – come out and they’re probing for weaknesses, they’re? Looking for you to make the other fight to make an error, excuse me make a mistake and then they want to take advantage of it, which is one reason why, when I was in Cinderella, Man Ron Howard said he didn’t like the Rocky movies, because the Rocky Movies were throwing these guys were, throwing thousands of punches around and around and except for Matthew, sod, Mohammed late, heavyweight, title fight or other fights or smaller ways that rarely happens Fighters are probing.
It’S like a chess match, they’re looking for a mistake, and then they capitalize jump on you like a tiger on a wounded animal.
So what happens in this fight in their first fight? You know the bell rings and Robinson comes out to fight to Robinson on First and he’s expecting.
You know lamada to come out.
You know touch gloves and have her feeling out around lamada rushes him like a linebacker and Bulls him to the ropes and just starts pounding its body and pounding his head and in his corner he had Al silvani, who appeared in Rocky in a lot of movies.
Al savanty became an actor, but he was a great Corner.
Man and Lamar is also trained by his brother Joey and he’s just he’s bullying him up against the ropes to you know: that’s why they call them the Bronx bull, the Raging Bull.
He just got up there into the guy’s face.
He knew lamada was not um a pure Slugger, as people thought people thought he was just a walk-in.
Slugger guy would take a lot of shots to the head just to get one of his own ends.
That wasn’t true, lamada lived to be 95 and he was clear-headed on the day.
He died, never suffered from pugilistic and dementia, so lamada was smart, he’s 5’8 Robinson’s five eleven, I’m five nine and I met Jake a lot of the times and I don’t know if he was five.
Eight Angelo told me Dundee told me he was probably five six, but he said five eight anyways he knew uh like, and I I never understood this.
Some Fighters gave it some dope last night watching Tony Harrison and Tim Zoo, even though it’s a small ring, I’m thinking that Tony Harry about Tony Harrison.
If you keep moving and using your lateral movement, you’ll keep forcing Tim Zoo to reset himself.
You won’t let him get leverage on the shots.
That’S the way to fight a guy he’s a pressure fighter, but he didn’t do that.
He stood in front of zoo and and it’s a terrible beating, so lamanna knew going ahead against Robinson.
It’S a taller man for longer reach, and what does a guy like that need to be successful? He needs room Robinson needed room to stand back and get his long arms going and to use his lateral movement.
So lamada knew that he could.
He had to get under Robinson’s jab, like basilio, did years later and start hammering his body and and what he was told to do by Al Stefani and and and and uh Joey his brother, who he loved, unlike in the movie, they never had a falling out.
They were close throughout their whole life.
He got in close with with uh Sugar Ray Robinson and his head on his chest, but he put his left leg between Robinson’s legs, so when you’re doing that, you’re cutting Robinson’s balance off meaning, even when he’s against the ropes.
Like this, he can get shots off, but they’re arm shots.
He can’t get his full weight behind him and he can’t move to either side and when he tries to move Robinson, can or lamada comes forward of the shoulder and he’s pounding him.
But you got to give Robin some credit.
I mean Robinson was a tough son of a he took all those shots from lamata worked his way off the ropes, and it was a very close fight.
They gave it to Robinson by unanimous decision and lamada debated that for the rest of his life.
He thought I beat him, I mean look at who would you rather be? That’S that that’s the criteria? Look at us after the fight, I’m unmarked, which is unusual, he’s beaten up you’re gon na tell me that I lost that fight.
I mean Jake had a 16 18 pound weight advantage, so he loses that fight and he’s angry.
Now I mean Jacob’s angry at the world.
It’S a boxer, they say you can’t fight angry.
You make mistakes, Jake, fun, angry Jake! So did Duran Jake fought with a giant chip on his shoulder and he took it out and everyone he ever faced.
So they have their second fight of the six they had, and this was truly a great fight it took place in Detroit now.
People would think that Robinson would be the favorite, because, although he was born in the South, I believe in Georgia.
He he as Walker Smith.
He his family, moved to Detroit to black bottom and then moved to New York.
Robinson, as we know, is from the Bronx and but he fought a lot in Detroit in the early part of his career, so he became sort of a HomeTown favorite.
It became his his uh home away from home, so Robinson by the way uh was fighting in a tournament and his name’s Walker Smith, and the guy Ray Robinson who was supposed to fight Robinson, couldn’t get a card for the tournament he was under eight.
So it was the Golden Gloves tournament.
So when the guy didn’t show up, he said I’ll be Ray Robinson and he would.
He did so well that they mentioned him in the newspaper and then he he kept the name and then changed his name to that.
His trainer was degrade Harry Wiley, whose son who was the close friend of mine, Harry Wiley, Jr, passed away recently and his manager with George gainford.
Everyone gave gainford credit for Creative Robinson, but he didn’t.
He was a manager.
It was Henry Wiley who taught him how to fight all those moves he saw Robinson.
Do you know the double left hook? You know double jab left hook off the double Jab.
You know the right to the belly Left To The Head, the the ducking, the moving.
The slipping and sliding the shoulder roll that was all Harry Wiley, we taught Robinson Robinson, was a great student and he learned it and he learned it well and uh.
You know when he turned Pro um after his first couple fights I mean he was beaten early on.
You know, former Champions like fritzy zivic, Henry Armstrong.
It was great and um.
One of the reporters said to Harry.
You got a sweet fighter there.
My friend he is sweet and Harry Wiley said yep, he’s Swedish sugar and hence Sugar, Ray Robinson Bronx bull for for Jake LaMotta wasn’t any mystery.
He was built like a bull.
He had the temperament of a bull and uh.
Once the referee said.
Let’S fight that was his favorite moment in his life.
He’D live for battle, so we come upon this second fight February, 5th 1943.
In Detroit and once again, uh Lamont has got a 15 16 pound weight advantage and you know it it uh.
It was a really good fight and lamada had a specific game plan going in he.
He thought I had Robinson in the previous fight, but I let him get away from me.
You know he started to move and once Robinson moved, it was difficult.
Lamar was good at cutting the ring off, but Robinson was so quick and because he was so much lighter, Rob uh lamada had time trying to stop him.
How do you stop a guy like that? It’S difficult because Robinson’s great at fighting and and boxing technical boxing, but he’s also a tough guy and and you would think, a guy with a 16 pound weight advantage.
It was a hard puncher like lamada, for instance, when I look at lamotta’s ring record.
He had 106 fights, 86 83 wins, and you know many of those were Knockouts and, of course, Robinson had had twice as many 174 wins.
So these guys could fight.
Lamanna was doing his best in the second fight, but he knew he had to adopt a different strategy.
He couldn’t let up.
It was a 10 round fight, but he couldn’t take his foot off the gas pedal.
He literally could not allow Robinson to get away from him, so the picture you saw at the beginning of the show that’s from the two second or third round he dropped Robinson.
You know he hit him a good shot and rather than you know, after hitting him a good shot, some guys will wait and look for the perfect shot.
Lamada gon na do that after he hit him with that, you know Sledgehammer right hand and staggered him.
He hit him with a left hook in the liver and then another Sledgehammer writing in and Lamar Robinson tried to hold, but lamado, who was significantly shorter, was able to work his arms and shoulders free and keep belting him and Robinson went through the ropes.
It was a knockdown Robinson got up immediately.
You know he should have taken more of account, but he got up and and lamada.
You know when the referee looked at him and said you all right.
Yes, do you want to continue yes and the fight went on, but from the time Robinson said? Yes, the second time like that right on top of him, still pounding him, you know lamad is using his shoulders he’s putting his head right here in his throat in his Adam’s Apple, which is an old trick, because when you do that you get the other guy’s Head to move back and then all that Alma has to do with the shorter arms is take a half step backwards and whack him again over and over and over and when Robinson tries to cover up like this lamada is hitting him.
You know he’s hitting him with his arm.
Forearm elbow.
This is a fight.
This isn’t a dance.
You know I mean lamada said jokingly after I fought Sugar, Ray Robinson, so many times it’s a wonder.
I didn’t need diabetes or I didn’t need.
I didn’t need insulin.
It’S a wonder: I didn’t get diabetes, not need diabetes.
My mistakes – oh uh.
He was rough on Robinson but Robinson, didn’t complain.
It’S not like fights today where, where guys are always turning to the ref and complaining now last night, Harrison did hit Tim Zulo and look and Zoo moved back and did what Fighters have always done.
He touched his own cup and he said: hey that was low and and he’s not and Harrison acknowledged it that never happened back then, when you hit a guy low back then the other fighter, just he didn’t like it, but he that’s.
What are you going to do can’t complain to the referee referee doesn’t care, he can’t do anything about it.
The only way to stop a guy from hitting low is to hit him back low, and the perfect example of that was Matthew, Hatton against Canelo Alvarez.
When Matthew hadn’t kept hitting him behind the head, all these rabbit shots and the referee kept warning him.
And finally, after one clinch uh Canelo and I loved it turn Hatton around.
He was behind him and started pounding on his head like a speed bag and then said how do you like it and after that hat and didn’t do it again? That’S the only way to stop the guy from falling referee can’t do that.
It can take points away, but doesn’t mean the guy won’t do it again.
So lamanna are fighting now.
The fight takes place in 1943.
It’S significant because this is in the midst of World War II.
Uh Robinson was in the Army and he was in with uh Joe Lewis Robinson hated.
The Army, the Army back then, was segregated and it was just a uh, absolute hell on Earth for for um African-American servicemen and they got treated like garbage didn’t matter.
If you were Ray Robinson, they would still treated like garbage and challenge you to fight, and one day uh Joe Lewis and Robinson were walking somewhere they’ve been asked to go somewhere to a press conference.
You know to talk to the reporters about life over in Europe, or this was in the states life in the Army.
Excuse me in some lower ranking officer that said to blow to Joel’s.
Hey you and word get over here, get out of that line and Robinson said: that’s Joe Lewis.
That’S the Undisputed heavyweight champion.
I don’t care you stupid, n-word, you ain’t nothing, but an n-word to me.
Get over here and Robinson jumped the guy beat him up, and then you know both of them got arrested and Louis people would call Lewis later on and Uncle Tom.
But that certainly wasn’t true Lewis had a speech impediment, so he was hesitant to speak in public uh, but he had a lot of power out of the ring as well.
So he had a friend in Washington whom he called, who called someone else, and then they had the Secretary of State call the uh uh Commanding General at that camp and say what the hell’s going on.
Why is Joe Lewis being called this? You know he’s the best rep we have in the Army, he’s getting people to join the Army by the hundreds of thousands, including African Americans, him and Ray Robinson.
Why are you doing this and, of course, those officers that call them names and that have been? Were you know, bumped down several strikes and then kicked out of the army as well? They should have been Robinson didn’t want to be in the army.
He thought this isn’t my War.
This is a white person’s War and I shouldn’t be here: I’m getting treated poorly.
I could be in New York making money it’s hard to believe that the Allies won’t win.
If I’m not in the effort, so uh Robinson went, AWOL disappears for a couple weeks tells him when he shows up that he blacked out.
He had Amnesia and they believed him.
Basically, he just said you know I’m not going to do this anymore, and that was it, but because he was the great Ray Robinson he was able to get away with it.
Uh lamada, I think, because of his um temperament, you know that he he was so easily angered and so willing to fight.
He just didn’t want his type in the Army, although he probably would have been a good soldier.
So LaMotta was a guy who, when he trained especially for Robinson lamada, you see guys training today, but lamada would run 10 15 miles a day.
Seven days a week there were no weekends off for Jake LaMotta.
He didn’t look at it that way.
He wasn’t going to leave anything to chance.
He wasn’t gon na.
Let Ray Robinson beat him because he wasn’t in shape.
So when he was told you do a thousand sit-ups, he said.
Ah, that’s nothing! I’Ll do five thousand sit-ups and 5 000 push-ups and five thousand chin UPS.
He wanted to be able, you know to take on a tank.
Lamada wasn’t going to leave anything the chance.
Robinson’S training camps were were a lot more uh lighthearted, but he worked hard.
He he was great at skipping rope.
He was great on the speed bag right on the heavy bag, and you know back then, unlike today, where guys get into spar and they wail on each other back then what they did was they’d work on certain situations.
So all of Robinson’s for the second fight with lamanna hisparent partners, uh, were five, eight, five, nine and they all mimicked, Jake, lamottas, uh style and and what Harry Wiley had him work on was you’re against the ropes.
We’Ll start like this, you put your foot your leg between raised legs and you have your shoulder, pinning them in and then they’d start this wiring and he would say to Ray.
How do we get out of this? What what do you do and why we would get in the ring with them, and it would say when he leans forward like this, you can.
You know you can use your right arm to push his head away or put your arm over and hold them down, and when the referee breaks you, you can move along the other side of the ropes and get free, but when it gets close like that, you Got ta tie him up and you got ta move your head to the side or move it farther back because he’s going to keep doing that to you.
Conversely, in lamata’s Camp you know lamada, it’s not that he disrespected Robinson.
He just thought I can beat him he’s not special.
Like people say he is and and so what he was doing at that time.
He had guys imitating Robinson and he was just looking for new ways.
You know to try to trap him in the corner or try to trap him against the ropes against the ropes during the corner.
When you don’t have your leverage behind you and all you can do, is stand there and take shots.
That was the best thing for a lamada of lamotica trap.
You he could take you out so Robinson is there and at his camp lamotta’s at his camp and he’s thinking, there’s got to be different ways that I can do this and he realized speed.
I can beat him with speed now Robinson was blindingly fast hand, speed and foot speed.
The Motto was quick: there’s a distinct difference between fats and quick, and I’ve spoken about this before fast is if two fighters are facing each other and they both throw punches.
Whoever gets there first is the fastest quick is.
When you see a mistake, your opponent makes and you capitalize on it before you can correct his mistake.
That’S quick and lamado was quit, so lamanna knew when when that fight began, the first thing he does is he he doesn’t walk.
He runs right out at Robinson and Robinson before he could do anything.
It’S just trying to get out of the way you know he’s.
Trying to land his jab, but lamotta’s bobbing up and down he’s moving side to side and Robinson or excuse me, lamanna’s, just touching him.
So, even if lamada, you know, throws the left hand and, and the jab just misses him like this – he’s still going to come back and grab Robinson’s head he’s, still going to hit him to the side and grab his left arm.
So he’s still going to keep grabbing him and when he grabs him he can hit him.
He wants to make it a street for all.
He wants to rough him up for the whole time.
He doesn’t want to get Robinson the room to be eloquent.
He doesn’t want her elegant.
Excuse me not eloquent eloquence.
When you speak, he doesn’t want him to be elegant in the ring.
He doesn’t want him a chance to get into his rhythm, where he can just keep circling lamada and keep making lamata shift and then reset himself continuously and then lamada has the wing punches.
That’S what Robinson wants to do just keep him on the end of the jab, and that was a smart way to fight lamanna at that time, but, as Robinson grew into the wake you know.
People realize that this is one tough son of a and Robinson didn’t hesitate to stand there and slug inside a ring with a guy like lamanna.
Don’T forget, Robinson had trouble with basilio who was five six and basilia.
You know just butchered Robinson, their first fighting Yankee Stadium in 57 because he had him in the corner.
He wouldn’t let Robinson get out.
He was good at that.
Basilia was a master at getting under the other man’s jab and and pounding his body, and this is what Lamar was doing.
La motto was much stronger than basilio.
So LaMotta was you know.
The Sylvia was a Welter who came up.
The middle Rob LaMotta was born in middleweight, so LaMotta is using everything in his power and he’s rushing at him like a linebacker.
What other, quarterback and he’s you know, he’s Robinson’s holding him, but when Robinson tries to hold him lamada pushes him back against the ropes and Robinson’s.
Looking to the referee and LaMont just coming ahead using his head arms, elbows and he’s pounding Robinson to him, this there’s no etiquette here.
Just there’s no rule book here.
This is a fight, we’re fighting for our lives.
Here, I’m fighting to get a chance at the world.
Middleweight title you know you’re fighting to get a chance at the welterweight and or a middleweight title.
I’M I’m not going to give you a chance, I’m not going to fight according to the rules, I’m not going to fight critty.
Just so it looks aesthetically pleasing or to make it easier for you, I’m going to try to kick your ass.
I’M going to do everything I can I’m going to hit you when the Adam’s apple, I’m going to hit you low, I’m going to hit you in the arms I’m going to hit you on the break.
I’M going to I’m going to use my head when you’re clinching I’m going to do everything I can I I don’t want to lose to you you’re not going to get a gift like you did the first time you fought I’m going to beat the hell out Of you and this flight went on, and you know it’s only a 10 round fight and lamada was smart to know that in a 10 round fight, rather than a 15 round fight, you can’t take time off in a 15 round fight.
You can take seconds off here and there he didn’t have that time, because he knew anytime.
He takes time off Sugar Ray’s gon na flash.
Some, you know spectacular combinations he’s going to steal them around.
I can’t do that.
The Mata was in there like, he was digging a trench and while his car was double part, he was just hammering Robinson first round second round third round fourth round, and you can see third round fourth round Robinson’s getting gassed.
I mean he’s in shape, but he’s taken a ferocious beating to the body.
The way to beat a guy like Robinson who depends on mobility and speed, is to Savage his body and lamada kept doing it.
Even you know, so, even when Robinson is clenching, him he’s hitting him to the body.
Even the referee goes like this he’s leaning forward with the left hook to the liver.
He you know, and the referee this thing Jake, you don’t hit on the break and lamada’s like you know, whatever who cares and he just keeps coming forward.
He knows that everyone wants to see this fight.
Robinson’S from Detroit lamotta’s got his own fans there.
No one’s going to disqualify lamada, so he just keeps going forward and pounding Robinson over and over and it’s just this inexorable tidal wave of leather and Robinson is doing its best to move.
But he can’t he’s Young and he’s in shape, but lamanna is beating the life out of him.
He’S pounding his body and the more his sides are getting sores he’s in agony and the more that happens.
His legs just aren’t working his legs, aren’t getting him out of out of Harm’s Way, quick enough, and even when he uses his legs to move and he’ll move to the side.
Lamont is still on him with a right hand.
Lamar is hitting him in the head.
You know on the eye in the eyes on purpose he’s targeting his Adam’s Apple he’s he he, you know he wants to hurt him in the throat he’s pounding his eyes, even in a clinch.
You know when they’re holding like this he’s coming up to get his eyes he’s going after his nose he’s doing everything he can to make it a street battle for, for Robinson, he doesn’t want Robinson to get into Rhythm.
Doesn’T want him to get set, doesn’t want him to get used to throwing those long, Jabs and coming in with the right hands.
He lamanna is fighting a smart fight he’s staying low and by staying it’s hard to punch down so by staying low and moving side to side.
It’S almost impossible to time a guy like that so Robinson’s having a very difficult time getting his jab in there and he’s having a very difficult timelining combinations and every time Robinson throws a jab or a right hand and misses the amount of counters him with a Thud, you know it counts him with the right hand, to the face a left hook to the liver counters him with a a left hook right here, just above the groin.
You know in the solar plexus hits him with the right hand on the side of the neck.
Lamada is just doing everything he can to make this the worst night of Robinson’s life and he’s succeeding.
He’S you know he’s beating the hell out of him and uh people aren’t believing what they’re seeing and Perry Wiley’s not very happy in Sugar, Ray Robinson’s Corner he’s saying: you’re, not fighting him.
The way I’m telling you to fight him and Robinson said I’m doing the best.
I can he’s a lot better than he was last time.
Lamada lamada learned from their last fight Robinson, it’s not that he didn’t learn, but he was so Superior to everyone else.
What more was he going to learn? He’D beaten? He was beating everyone out there lombarded to him with just another fight at that point in time, so he didn’t really think he had to prepare, especially for lamada he did, but he didn’t think this would be a different LaMotta than he fought the first time and It was Jacob realized, there can’t be a one-trick pony.
It can’t be a one note fighter.
I can’t just bull straight ahead because then he could.
You know you grab me or shove me to the side and then I’d have to chase him.
The Mata knew that he had to come in in such a way as to cut off the ring, and by that I mean – and we saw this last night with Kim zoo and Tony Harrison when when Harrison was against the robes, he would be taking five six.
Seven steps in either direction Zoo only took one or two.
He just had to turn and that’s what lamanna was doing.
Lamada cut off the ropes so when your guy’s moving you’re moving diagonally rather than straight and you’re, taking less steps, so you so if your guy’s moving to his left you’re taking one or two steps to get there first, that means that’s cut off for him.
You can’t get to that Avenue and then he’s going to move to Europe to his right and you’re, going to move one or two steps in that direction and he can’t move there and Lamar was brilliant at that, especially on that night and their last fight February 14Th, 1951 to sing Valentine’s Day Massacre.
I think LaMotta just had very little left in the tank because he couldn’t make the wait anymore and he was 175 pounds a month or about a month before the last fight with Robinson and to get down to 160, kill them um.
Looking back on him on his career, he probably would have been better served if he fought his whole career as a light heavyweight.
Even though he’s only five.
Nine problem, of course, is the money was in the middleweight division, much more money in the middleweights than in the light heavyweights.
Middleweights was the glamor division.
Why? Because most people are middleweights at least at that time.
Most people walked around at that weight.
So 175 pound man like heavyweight, would consider be considered to be a big man and lamado was physically stronger than Robinson, as were a lot of guys.
That fought him but Robinson was a tough guy and on this night lamada had his number, and you know this fight takes place in 1943 and lamado wins a 10 round decision, and so two years later they fight again – and you know it wasn’t unusual even back Then, for you know me to fight you on one night and then four weeks later fight you again and then four weeks after that fight you again and then three weeks later fight you again, regardless of who won any of the fights that was common.
If the fans liked it and they saw it – and they had a good time, then they were going to pay more to see it again.
Now, on September 26, 1945 um they fought again and at Kaminsky parking in Chicago LaMotta, weighed 159 Robinson, was closer.
He was 150.
and Robinson had you know in those two years uh since LaMotta beat him last time and grown into his his own body.
Excuse me, so sometimes it takes a fighter a while to do that.
You know guys that are awkward that are bigger.
You know especially gigantic guys, like Dyson Fury, you know it takes a long time for them to get used to their own body and their own side, so Robinson was now more comfortable as as fighting at 150 pounds, because the fight at Welter, he only had to Drop three pounds and he won a close split decision on Kaminsky Park.
Lamotta believed he won the fight.
Most people in the newspapers believe lamado won.
What’S interesting about this fight is um people say well, you know what uh right after he beat him Detroit.
They fought again a week later in New York and lamado on that fight, and this was really they’re getting it confused.
It was this fight in 45 in Chicago, which was very, very close, and the problem with Chicago, of course, is Chicago’s a mob Town.
It was run by the outfit and it was hard for uh the money to get a break in Chicago or anywhere now.
Did the mom fix this fight? We don’t know that we know that the mob fixed most fights in the 40s and 50s.
We know that Robinson wasn’t a mob fighter.
Originally he turned down um Frankie carbo’s offers.
You know you lose to this guy and then you beat him in the rematch and he said no and Robinson could say no, not because he had gangsters behind or black gangsters, because he was the biggest draw in the sport.
So Robinson said to carbo.
You know not to be rude, Mr Cardwell, but if I walk away your money goes down 80 percent and so Robinson, even when he lost they still had to give him his due.
Because you know he’s the money in the sport Robinson.
Wasn’T a well-ledged fighter by the way Robinson did this with lamanna, but basilio really hated them and Carmen told me many times how you know when they were supposed to fight at Yankee Stadium.
He fought him twice, but he did it with a lot of Fighters.
What Robinson would do is you’d be an hour before the fight and it’s being broadcast and Robinson would just say, I’m not going in the ring unless I get 25 more in basilio, look at him saying you’re getting a 75 or you’re getting a 65 35 split.
I’M not giving you up 25 of what I have left.
That’S ridiculous! I’M not fighting for that.
Little well, no fight! Then you got ta signed contract.
Well, we’ll go to court, but I’m not getting in the ring tonight.
And so what would happen? Is uh, basilio’s managers and other managers of other Fighters would give up a portion of their percentage to get Robinson in the ring.
Now it got Robinson, more money but of course, in the end, an antagonized, basilio and lamada a lot of other Fighters, and you don’t want to give a guy more motivation to pass your face in.
So this was quite common.
So in the early to mid 50s Robinson said, he’s had enough of boxing, he leaves he doesn’t want any more pressure from the mob he’s tired of it.
He goes in to Showbiz it’s already in show business, because boxing is entertainment.
Pretty comes goes to nightclubs, becomes a dancer, a singer and he’s all right, not great, but he’s all right and after about three years of this he has a meeting because he owned all of Harlem.
He had his restaurant.
She was raids, he had the great big Cadillac he’d go to Europe and travel and he’d have his manicurist with him.
He he’d have his hair stylist with him.
You know his masseuse.
He had a at the bat at that time.
Then they called a a dwarf that he carried with him.
A little person didn’t carry with him.
I mean Gary then took with him, and this was the way it was phrased in the paper back then so he was sort of a dilettante.
But after three years out of the ring he goes to meet with his business manager, who tells him you’re broke, and you owe hundreds of thousands to IRS.
How did that happen? Well, all these 20 businesses sugary Robinson’s, hair, styling, sugary, Robinson’s grocery store Sugar, Ray Robinson’s, uh manicure, pedicure, uh, Boutique Sugar, Ray Robinson’s clothing, store, sugary Robinson shoe, store Sugar, Ray Robinson’s television set store.
All of these places are managed by who his relatives and close friends who rip him off so now he’s got nothing so he’s got to close.
It all sell the businesses, it’s not enough to pay off the taxes.
It’S got to come back to boxing and now he’s got to make a deal with James Lawrence.
He runs the IBC international boxing club and that’s run by Frankie Carver.
The monster who took over Oni Madden took over from only Madden when Madden went into Exile in Arkansas he became the Godfather of Arkansas, so Carver was in front control of boxing then, and to make a deal with Norris means you had to make a deal with.
Carbo and fight the fights Carver wanted.
There is no evidence as far as I can see, or that I’ve heard from anyone that Robinson ever went in the tank for the mob.
Never through a fight he came back.
He lost his first fight back with Ralph Tiger Jones and he he comes back and he’s winning fights.
Eventually he beats Carl Bobo Olson for the title.
I think in two two or three rounds knocks him out, but before that he had the great uh February.
14.
1951 fight where he won the title from from Jake LaMotta.
Now I’m Mike basilio um the silly what didn’t particularly like Robinson, but when they had a knight in 65 at Madison Square Garden, to honor him.
They had former opponents in the ring and basilio was one of them and there were other Fighters there.
Lamotta wasn’t invited, although he lived less than two blocks from Madison Square Garden and the reason the model wasn’t invited was because he admitted to throwing a fight in front of the Catholic committee invested, getting um organized crimes, infiltration of boxing.
Now that committee, that Senate subcommittee still exists today, they still go after and look into fights today that they believe were had organized crime, influence and there’s quite a few.
So what had happened with Jake LaMotta was in order to get a fight for the world title.
You had to make a deal of carbo because carbo said you’re, not I don’t care who you’d be you’re, not getting a shot.
Unless you go through me, so he agreed to lose two cardboard’s fighter.
Blackjack Billy, Fox and blackjack Billy Fox was really a light heavyweight.
Couldn’T fight uh labata assured the commission for the fight? No, I don’t lose anyone.
I don’t go into the tank for anyone.
He loses in four rounds.
It was obviously a fix Robinson said he broke.
He had heard his uh, I think rotator cuff.
It’S not our spleen, excuse me, they shouldn’t believed them, and the commission believed them because it wasn’t the final ruler.
The final ruler was the mafia, with Frankie Garbo and now he said believe him, and so he gets his license back and he keeps fighting even though he went into the tank for the mob and the mob made a fortune off of him.
He still had to wait almost three years: nine fights and ended up paying another 30 Grand in cold cash to carbo before he gets a chance to beat Marcel Sudan.
That’S what the mob did to him now.
What’S sad here is when Robinson dies in 89.
He’S got maybe a half a million to his name when lamada dies um in 217 at the age of 95.
, lamanna had upwards of 10 to 15 million dollars.
He was very smart with the money he had.
They show him as a comedian, and you know and Raging Bull a lot of Raging.
Bull wasn’t true, although Jake said to me one time as mean as I was in that movie, I was a lot meaner in real life, so he had invested in condos and land in Florida and he made a lot of money off of it.
So he ended up in financially good shape and, although he would repeat stories when he got older, you could sit and have a conversation um with him, and I did – and you know he was an interesting guy.
I mean when I saw him in 209 to 10.
You know lamada was, I guess, 88, he had his young wife, that was in her 40s and and a kid he had like a seven or eight year old kid.
Now he had a daughter and two sons.
One son died of cancer.
The other son died in that plane crash over Gander Newfoundland and he said to me he thought the death of his two sons was punishment to him from God.
By the way he lived his life.
He said: that’s why a lot of times when he I said to him that sounds a bit far-fetched, but I understand what you’re saying you don’t want to disagree.
If the guy he’s obviously he’s still in pain – and he said a lot of times – you’d see him on the ropes in a fight and he’d.
Let a guy hit him and he said he did that because he thought he deserved the punishment for the way he lived his life.
That’S a bit of a skewed view.
Boxers can be like that at times.
Why do athletes can’t? But you know he he was the middleweight champion of the world and who am I to upset him because even at the age of 88 or 87 and I’m you know 49, I’m not going to take him up.
I it’s still Jake LaMotta, so he had wonderful stories um to tell – and I think I’ve mentioned this before he said in the movie when lamada or when Robinson beats him the last time and he goes over to him and he says he didn’t knock me down Right, it doesn’t count um, he said to me.
I never said that because he knocked he shredded my lips and knocked a lot of my teeth out broke my nose and he said I had to be carried to my corner.
I couldn’t catch my breath, I didn’t say a damn thing to him, not for many years and I said: do you hate him and he said no, I I don’t hate Ray.
I mean there were times.
I didn’t like some of the things he pulled, but I let it go.
You know raise a person, I’m a person, uh no reason for me to go after him or say bad things.
He was a great fighter and we became good friends um and you would think that’s odd, because lamado when he was young, didn’t look at anyone as his friend except it’s brother.
Joey, didn’t trust anyone, but these men made history together and when people look at their fights most of the time, they just remember the fight from February 14th 1951, but they had fights.
You know before that and of the six fights they had lamada won one officially.
I think you can give him credit for the Chicago one, which is a split decision, and I think the one before that uh in New York, which was given to Ray that one was very close.
I mean that could have gone either way.
So I I think, looking at it is 5-1 for Ray Robinson, wasn’t really correct.
Uh I mean that’s how it officially is, but we know that sometimes the official’s going, especially back in the 40s and 50s, was uh easily skewed uh.
Both of them were tremendous, draws.
Um, the fake that lamala won, I mean lamanna, was immensely proud and you have to give Robin some credit because Robinson didn’t make any bones about it.
He didn’t complain, he didn’t say I got a rod decision, he hit me illegally or he held me or he did this.
He said I lost to the better man.
The better man won tonight and all credit to him got to give him his due and that’s what boxing is all about.
This is why, last night, I was upset watching uh, the zoo, Harrison fight and, after the fight Tim Zoo, cursing repeatedly.
What’S my MF name? What’S my, they didn’t do that back then guys, like Robinson and lamada Joe Lewis, never cursed when he was interviewed, neither the George Foreman or Ali or Joe Frazier.
So there’s no need for that in sport of boxing.
If you get a chance watch, Robinson and Lamar watch everything you can uh on them, the 13th, the 13th round knockdown or stoppage.
Some 51 is a great fight, because lamado was in the fight for a long time and then he just ran out of steam.
Making the way killed him and, as I said, he was in middleweight, because there was more money at middleweight but body wise for him.
It would have been smarter to be at light heavyweight, but he didn’t want to take the 55-60 pay cut and what’s amazing, about lamanna courses, he ended up with all that money, even though the mob had stolen all this money.
But La model was not a predictable person, so the mob sort of was leery of him.
They controlled him in his fights, but you know they never knew.
If he was, I mean La model was in nightclubs or mob, guys would make passes at his wife and he would beat the hell out of them, and you know when these mob guys would complain to the superiors you know you got to do something about them.
They said they just don’t antagonize him.
This guy’s a nut case stay away from me and when lamada testified in front of the Opera commission, and when I spoke them, he said I had no fear of them.
I had a tremendous hatred of them like that.
Doesn’T come from being brave? I was just too stupid to know how and how much danger I was, and he said, but then again being that naive is probably a good thing, because if I wasn’t, I wouldn’t have done what I did a lot of the time.
He said I, you know, I told them off in front of their peers and I beat up a lot of those guys and there was never any blowback and he said that was just pure luck and uh.
I was lucky enough to to meet him on many occasions here in Toronto and in New York, uh uh.
I never had a chance to meet uh Robinson Robinson had a bad Dimension near the end of his life and he did have money problems, but uh um.
Angela Dundee’s good friend Melvin, dick Melvin was a man who owns the second or third largest Wine and Spirits company in the Southern United States, so he’s very well off.
He helped Ray Robinson.
In fact, Ray Robinson went to his bar mitzvah.
If you believe it, I mean this is a story.
He told an Angela’s funeral Angel introduced into Ray and Ray went to his bar mitzvah.
Imagine that Sugar Ray Robinson driving you to the apartment enter your prom in his pink Cadillac and he was the escort.
You know he acted like a butler or whatever, and they were good friends throughout their whole life because uh this was Mel’s hero and when Angelo brought him to stillman’s gym in New York, Mel would go in every day and just stare at Sugar Ray Robinson.
He didn’t care about the other Fighters, he didn’t care and Robinson notices, this white kid looking at him for like three weeks and he turns a kid every day you come in here.
What’S your problem, why are you doing this? Why are you staring at me because I love you and you’re my hero and Robinson just had tears coming down his face, I mean you know being born in the South moving to Detroit New York.
You know what segregation and Prejudice was the kids.
Didn’T this kid? Didn’T have it.
This was a young Jewish kid who just idolized him and they became good friends.
So after his bar mitzvah, this is a great story.
He’S got his bar mitzvah soon on and they go back to stillman’s, gym and Robinson hasn’t telling everyone.
I just said my apartment, so I did and Angelo Dundee who was fluent in Yiddish by the way was congratulating him and all the other guys were congratulating him and all the fighters, and he said, go tell Joe Joe Lewis and Joe Lewis was taking a shower And he literally opens up the shower curtain and there’s Joe Lewis completely naked showering.
He says Joe, I just had my bar mitzvah and, and he said good for you – son muscle, tough closed up close the shower curtain.
Please, and of course this was explained to me it’s hard to say this – I have to clean this up.
Joe Lewis was um, I don’t even know if you get a Milton bro reference, Joe Lewis friend of mine, a comedian Kenny Robinson um parents on the jazz club in Winnipeg, and he has black and white photographs that Joe Lewis coming up and when Joe would visit.
Um he would ask for all these different women of the evening to escort him, but their prices would go up six seven fold because they said Joe Lewis was too much man for one woman.
So when this kid walks in and opens the curtain and everyone’s standing out there, including themselves kind of a funny moment, anyways, that’s way off topic uh, it was Melvin dick who helped look after Ray Robinson, Ray Robinson.
I had dementia and he was with him a lot of the time, so Ray Robinson had a soft Landing.
It’S not like by many of the people that he knew or fought against, but certainly has to be considered the greatest fighter where people have lived pound per pound.
If you ask me, if you asked Angela Dundee my mentor, he’d say Willie Pep lamado rates up there lamada did more with what he had than any other fighter.
I ever saw he had skill and he had toughness and he had no fear and he didn’t not have any fear because he wasn’t bright, you can’t have fear, fear doesn’t enter into it at that level.
A lot of times you’ll see critics that I see that guy was afraid of that guy.
He doesn’t enter into it at the elite level of pro boxing fear only enters into it.
When you hurt your opponent, and you fear that you may have fatally injured but being scared of someone unless you’re fighting a listener format, it just didn’t enter into the OR Lewis it didn’t enter into it, lamada and Robinson are are inextricably linked together throughout the annals Of boxing as well, they should be people talk about the great fights three fights of Tony Zell and Rocky Graziano, Arturo Gotti and and Mickey Ward.
Imagine six fights like that between these two, where there was very little give and take, except for the last fight.
Every fight was close and went down the last couple seconds of the last round.
These were two of the all-time greatest Fighters and middleweight champions ever to have lived.
I’M Lou Eisen, that’s Ring talk.
I hope you had a good time.
See you again.
Next week, please visit my sub stack luizen.
substack.
com Once Upon a Time in the prize Wing prize ring.
This week I started the first of a four or five part series on the history of the mob and boxing and I’m sure you’ll enjoy that see you again next week.
At the same time, bye bye, thank you.
Transcribed
Foreign boxing writer and historian – and this is ring – talk – and I just want to thank our producer – the lovely Eric Boyce and he is Lovely by the way uh, because the picture he showed at the beginning is from that fight.
That was from the LaMotta Robinson fight, and that was my mistake.
I said first fight, it’s the second fight, but you see Robinson going through the Roadster Robinson was very young at that point, and also this is unbelievable.
So you have this fight and lamada enters the ring at 160 and a half Robinson enters the ring on that day at 144.
Although um Chris Dundee, the promoter Angelo’s brother, said he actually invented the ring at 141 and a half and and um on uh.
On that particular day, February, 5th 1943, in Detroit at the Olympia, and they had a fight previously on on October, 2nd 1942, in which uh Robinson won that fight by unanimous decision.
What’S interesting about um these fight, if you look at the you know, early careers of Ray Robinson and lamada, you know 1940s in the 50s you’ll see each of them fighting four five six times a month.
That’S what was done, then top guys today will fight twice a year.
Last night, Tony Harrison hadn’t fought in a year and a half and and um Tim Zoo, hadn’t fought in a year, so it was quite common back.
Then excuse me for fighters to not.
You know to fight four five six times a month, because the money wasn’t as good as it is.
Today you had to fight more often, and you know you needed to make a living, and it was the best way to stay in shape, plus these were hungry.
Guys and they wanted to get to the top of the ladder in their respective weight divisions Robinson because of his height 511.
You know it’s a welterweight, but we knew he would go up.
People knew he’d go up the middleweight, he won the Welterweight Title against Tommy Bell, but it only stayed in the division, a short time and moved up to middleweight and he fought middleweight.
While he was a welterweight and he could do it because he had the power and more importantly, he had the skills and the speed.
However, uh at the time, I think it was the 30th fight uh when the second time they fought Sugar Ray Robinson was 40-0 and I think lamada had already had 36 37 fights and lost a couple, one sugary and Robinson.
Anyone who thinks lamada had never faced.
Anyone like lamanna The Motto wasn’t like any fighter you’ve seen today.
People compare him to Mike Tyson to him that doesn’t do him Justice.
Do you know when you see a fight begin and the fighters – and this is quite common Fighters – come out and they’re probing for weaknesses, they’re? Looking for you to make the other fight to make an error, excuse me make a mistake and then they want to take advantage of it, which is one reason why, when I was in Cinderella, Man Ron Howard said he didn’t like the Rocky movies, because the Rocky Movies were throwing these guys were, throwing thousands of punches around and around and except for Matthew, sod, Mohammed late, heavyweight, title fight or other fights or smaller ways that rarely happens Fighters are probing.
It’S like a chess match, they’re looking for a mistake, and then they capitalize jump on you like a tiger on a wounded animal.
So what happens in this fight in their first fight? You know the bell rings and Robinson comes out to fight to Robinson on First and he’s expecting.
You know lamada to come out.
You know touch gloves and have her feeling out around lamada rushes him like a linebacker and Bulls him to the ropes and just starts pounding its body and pounding his head and in his corner he had Al silvani, who appeared in Rocky in a lot of movies.
Al savanty became an actor, but he was a great Corner.
Man and Lamar is also trained by his brother Joey and he’s just he’s bullying him up against the ropes to you know: that’s why they call them the Bronx bull, the Raging Bull.
He just got up there into the guy’s face.
He knew lamada was not um a pure Slugger, as people thought people thought he was just a walk-in.
Slugger guy would take a lot of shots to the head just to get one of his own ends.
That wasn’t true, lamada lived to be 95 and he was clear-headed on the day.
He died, never suffered from pugilistic and dementia, so lamada was smart, he’s 5’8 Robinson’s five eleven, I’m five nine and I met Jake a lot of the times and I don’t know if he was five.
Eight Angelo told me Dundee told me he was probably five six, but he said five eight anyways he knew uh like, and I I never understood this.
Some Fighters gave it some dope last night watching Tony Harrison and Tim Zoo, even though it’s a small ring, I’m thinking that Tony Harry about Tony Harrison.
If you keep moving and using your lateral movement, you’ll keep forcing Tim Zoo to reset himself.
You won’t let him get leverage on the shots.
That’S the way to fight a guy he’s a pressure fighter, but he didn’t do that.
He stood in front of zoo and and it’s a terrible beating, so lamanna knew going ahead against Robinson.
It’S a taller man for longer reach, and what does a guy like that need to be successful? He needs room Robinson needed room to stand back and get his long arms going and to use his lateral movement.
So lamada knew that he could.
He had to get under Robinson’s jab, like basilio, did years later and start hammering his body and and what he was told to do by Al Stefani and and and and uh Joey his brother, who he loved, unlike in the movie, they never had a falling out.
They were close throughout their whole life.
He got in close with with uh Sugar Ray Robinson and his head on his chest, but he put his left leg between Robinson’s legs, so when you’re doing that, you’re cutting Robinson’s balance off meaning, even when he’s against the ropes.
Like this, he can get shots off, but they’re arm shots.
He can’t get his full weight behind him and he can’t move to either side and when he tries to move Robinson, can or lamada comes forward of the shoulder and he’s pounding him.
But you got to give Robin some credit.
I mean Robinson was a tough son of a he took all those shots from lamata worked his way off the ropes, and it was a very close fight.
They gave it to Robinson by unanimous decision and lamada debated that for the rest of his life.
He thought I beat him, I mean look at who would you rather be? That’S that that’s the criteria? Look at us after the fight, I’m unmarked, which is unusual, he’s beaten up you’re gon na tell me that I lost that fight.
I mean Jake had a 16 18 pound weight advantage, so he loses that fight and he’s angry.
Now I mean Jacob’s angry at the world.
It’S a boxer, they say you can’t fight angry.
You make mistakes, Jake, fun, angry Jake! So did Duran Jake fought with a giant chip on his shoulder and he took it out and everyone he ever faced.
So they have their second fight of the six they had, and this was truly a great fight it took place in Detroit now.
People would think that Robinson would be the favorite, because, although he was born in the South, I believe in Georgia.
He he as Walker Smith.
He his family, moved to Detroit to black bottom and then moved to New York.
Robinson, as we know, is from the Bronx and but he fought a lot in Detroit in the early part of his career, so he became sort of a HomeTown favorite.
It became his his uh home away from home, so Robinson by the way uh was fighting in a tournament and his name’s Walker Smith, and the guy Ray Robinson who was supposed to fight Robinson, couldn’t get a card for the tournament he was under eight.
So it was the Golden Gloves tournament.
So when the guy didn’t show up, he said I’ll be Ray Robinson and he would.
He did so well that they mentioned him in the newspaper and then he he kept the name and then changed his name to that.
His trainer was degrade Harry Wiley, whose son who was the close friend of mine, Harry Wiley, Jr, passed away recently and his manager with George gainford.
Everyone gave gainford credit for Creative Robinson, but he didn’t.
He was a manager.
It was Henry Wiley who taught him how to fight all those moves he saw Robinson.
Do you know the double left hook? You know double jab left hook off the double Jab.
You know the right to the belly Left To The Head, the the ducking, the moving.
The slipping and sliding the shoulder roll that was all Harry Wiley, we taught Robinson Robinson, was a great student and he learned it and he learned it well and uh.
You know when he turned Pro um after his first couple fights I mean he was beaten early on.
You know, former Champions like fritzy zivic, Henry Armstrong.
It was great and um.
One of the reporters said to Harry.
You got a sweet fighter there.
My friend he is sweet and Harry Wiley said yep, he’s Swedish sugar and hence Sugar, Ray Robinson Bronx bull for for Jake LaMotta wasn’t any mystery.
He was built like a bull.
He had the temperament of a bull and uh.
Once the referee said.
Let’S fight that was his favorite moment in his life.
He’D live for battle, so we come upon this second fight February, 5th 1943.
In Detroit and once again, uh Lamont has got a 15 16 pound weight advantage and you know it it uh.
It was a really good fight and lamada had a specific game plan going in he.
He thought I had Robinson in the previous fight, but I let him get away from me.
You know he started to move and once Robinson moved, it was difficult.
Lamar was good at cutting the ring off, but Robinson was so quick and because he was so much lighter, Rob uh lamada had time trying to stop him.
How do you stop a guy like that? It’S difficult because Robinson’s great at fighting and and boxing technical boxing, but he’s also a tough guy and and you would think, a guy with a 16 pound weight advantage.
It was a hard puncher like lamada, for instance, when I look at lamotta’s ring record.
He had 106 fights, 86 83 wins, and you know many of those were Knockouts and, of course, Robinson had had twice as many 174 wins.
So these guys could fight.
Lamanna was doing his best in the second fight, but he knew he had to adopt a different strategy.
He couldn’t let up.
It was a 10 round fight, but he couldn’t take his foot off the gas pedal.
He literally could not allow Robinson to get away from him, so the picture you saw at the beginning of the show that’s from the two second or third round he dropped Robinson.
You know he hit him a good shot and rather than you know, after hitting him a good shot, some guys will wait and look for the perfect shot.
Lamada gon na do that after he hit him with that, you know Sledgehammer right hand and staggered him.
He hit him with a left hook in the liver and then another Sledgehammer writing in and Lamar Robinson tried to hold, but lamado, who was significantly shorter, was able to work his arms and shoulders free and keep belting him and Robinson went through the ropes.
It was a knockdown Robinson got up immediately.
You know he should have taken more of account, but he got up and and lamada.
You know when the referee looked at him and said you all right.
Yes, do you want to continue yes and the fight went on, but from the time Robinson said? Yes, the second time like that right on top of him, still pounding him, you know lamad is using his shoulders he’s putting his head right here in his throat in his Adam’s Apple, which is an old trick, because when you do that you get the other guy’s Head to move back and then all that Alma has to do with the shorter arms is take a half step backwards and whack him again over and over and over and when Robinson tries to cover up like this lamada is hitting him.
You know he’s hitting him with his arm.
Forearm elbow.
This is a fight.
This isn’t a dance.
You know I mean lamada said jokingly after I fought Sugar, Ray Robinson, so many times it’s a wonder.
I didn’t need diabetes or I didn’t need.
I didn’t need insulin.
It’S a wonder: I didn’t get diabetes, not need diabetes.
My mistakes – oh uh.
He was rough on Robinson but Robinson, didn’t complain.
It’S not like fights today where, where guys are always turning to the ref and complaining now last night, Harrison did hit Tim Zulo and look and Zoo moved back and did what Fighters have always done.
He touched his own cup and he said: hey that was low and and he’s not and Harrison acknowledged it that never happened back then, when you hit a guy low back then the other fighter, just he didn’t like it, but he that’s.
What are you going to do can’t complain to the referee referee doesn’t care, he can’t do anything about it.
The only way to stop a guy from hitting low is to hit him back low, and the perfect example of that was Matthew, Hatton against Canelo Alvarez.
When Matthew hadn’t kept hitting him behind the head, all these rabbit shots and the referee kept warning him.
And finally, after one clinch uh Canelo and I loved it turn Hatton around.
He was behind him and started pounding on his head like a speed bag and then said how do you like it and after that hat and didn’t do it again? That’S the only way to stop the guy from falling referee can’t do that.
It can take points away, but doesn’t mean the guy won’t do it again.
So lamanna are fighting now.
The fight takes place in 1943.
It’S significant because this is in the midst of World War II.
Uh Robinson was in the Army and he was in with uh Joe Lewis Robinson hated.
The Army, the Army back then, was segregated and it was just a uh, absolute hell on Earth for for um African-American servicemen and they got treated like garbage didn’t matter.
If you were Ray Robinson, they would still treated like garbage and challenge you to fight, and one day uh Joe Lewis and Robinson were walking somewhere they’ve been asked to go somewhere to a press conference.
You know to talk to the reporters about life over in Europe, or this was in the states life in the Army.
Excuse me in some lower ranking officer that said to blow to Joel’s.
Hey you and word get over here, get out of that line and Robinson said: that’s Joe Lewis.
That’S the Undisputed heavyweight champion.
I don’t care you stupid, n-word, you ain’t nothing, but an n-word to me.
Get over here and Robinson jumped the guy beat him up, and then you know both of them got arrested and Louis people would call Lewis later on and Uncle Tom.
But that certainly wasn’t true Lewis had a speech impediment, so he was hesitant to speak in public uh, but he had a lot of power out of the ring as well.
So he had a friend in Washington whom he called, who called someone else, and then they had the Secretary of State call the uh uh Commanding General at that camp and say what the hell’s going on.
Why is Joe Lewis being called this? You know he’s the best rep we have in the Army, he’s getting people to join the Army by the hundreds of thousands, including African Americans, him and Ray Robinson.
Why are you doing this and, of course, those officers that call them names and that have been? Were you know, bumped down several strikes and then kicked out of the army as well? They should have been Robinson didn’t want to be in the army.
He thought this isn’t my War.
This is a white person’s War and I shouldn’t be here: I’m getting treated poorly.
I could be in New York making money it’s hard to believe that the Allies won’t win.
If I’m not in the effort, so uh Robinson went, AWOL disappears for a couple weeks tells him when he shows up that he blacked out.
He had Amnesia and they believed him.
Basically, he just said you know I’m not going to do this anymore, and that was it, but because he was the great Ray Robinson he was able to get away with it.
Uh lamada, I think, because of his um temperament, you know that he he was so easily angered and so willing to fight.
He just didn’t want his type in the Army, although he probably would have been a good soldier.
So LaMotta was a guy who, when he trained especially for Robinson lamada, you see guys training today, but lamada would run 10 15 miles a day.
Seven days a week there were no weekends off for Jake LaMotta.
He didn’t look at it that way.
He wasn’t going to leave anything to chance.
He wasn’t gon na.
Let Ray Robinson beat him because he wasn’t in shape.
So when he was told you do a thousand sit-ups, he said.
Ah, that’s nothing! I’Ll do five thousand sit-ups and 5 000 push-ups and five thousand chin UPS.
He wanted to be able, you know to take on a tank.
Lamada wasn’t going to leave anything the chance.
Robinson’S training camps were were a lot more uh lighthearted, but he worked hard.
He he was great at skipping rope.
He was great on the speed bag right on the heavy bag, and you know back then, unlike today, where guys get into spar and they wail on each other back then what they did was they’d work on certain situations.
So all of Robinson’s for the second fight with lamanna hisparent partners, uh, were five, eight, five, nine and they all mimicked, Jake, lamottas, uh style and and what Harry Wiley had him work on was you’re against the ropes.
We’Ll start like this, you put your foot your leg between raised legs and you have your shoulder, pinning them in and then they’d start this wiring and he would say to Ray.
How do we get out of this? What what do you do and why we would get in the ring with them, and it would say when he leans forward like this, you can.
You know you can use your right arm to push his head away or put your arm over and hold them down, and when the referee breaks you, you can move along the other side of the ropes and get free, but when it gets close like that, you Got ta tie him up and you got ta move your head to the side or move it farther back because he’s going to keep doing that to you.
Conversely, in lamata’s Camp you know lamada, it’s not that he disrespected Robinson.
He just thought I can beat him he’s not special.
Like people say he is and and so what he was doing at that time.
He had guys imitating Robinson and he was just looking for new ways.
You know to try to trap him in the corner or try to trap him against the ropes against the ropes during the corner.
When you don’t have your leverage behind you and all you can do, is stand there and take shots.
That was the best thing for a lamada of lamotica trap.
You he could take you out so Robinson is there and at his camp lamotta’s at his camp and he’s thinking, there’s got to be different ways that I can do this and he realized speed.
I can beat him with speed now Robinson was blindingly fast hand, speed and foot speed.
The Motto was quick: there’s a distinct difference between fats and quick, and I’ve spoken about this before fast is if two fighters are facing each other and they both throw punches.
Whoever gets there first is the fastest quick is.
When you see a mistake, your opponent makes and you capitalize on it before you can correct his mistake.
That’S quick and lamado was quit, so lamanna knew when when that fight began, the first thing he does is he he doesn’t walk.
He runs right out at Robinson and Robinson before he could do anything.
It’S just trying to get out of the way you know he’s.
Trying to land his jab, but lamotta’s bobbing up and down he’s moving side to side and Robinson or excuse me, lamanna’s, just touching him.
So, even if lamada, you know, throws the left hand and, and the jab just misses him like this – he’s still going to come back and grab Robinson’s head he’s, still going to hit him to the side and grab his left arm.
So he’s still going to keep grabbing him and when he grabs him he can hit him.
He wants to make it a street for all.
He wants to rough him up for the whole time.
He doesn’t want to get Robinson the room to be eloquent.
He doesn’t want her elegant.
Excuse me not eloquent eloquence.
When you speak, he doesn’t want him to be elegant in the ring.
He doesn’t want him a chance to get into his rhythm, where he can just keep circling lamada and keep making lamata shift and then reset himself continuously and then lamada has the wing punches.
That’S what Robinson wants to do just keep him on the end of the jab, and that was a smart way to fight lamanna at that time, but, as Robinson grew into the wake you know.
People realize that this is one tough son of a and Robinson didn’t hesitate to stand there and slug inside a ring with a guy like lamanna.
Don’T forget, Robinson had trouble with basilio who was five six and basilia.
You know just butchered Robinson, their first fighting Yankee Stadium in 57 because he had him in the corner.
He wouldn’t let Robinson get out.
He was good at that.
Basilia was a master at getting under the other man’s jab and and pounding his body, and this is what Lamar was doing.
La motto was much stronger than basilio.
So LaMotta was you know.
The Sylvia was a Welter who came up.
The middle Rob LaMotta was born in middleweight, so LaMotta is using everything in his power and he’s rushing at him like a linebacker.
What other, quarterback and he’s you know, he’s Robinson’s holding him, but when Robinson tries to hold him lamada pushes him back against the ropes and Robinson’s.
Looking to the referee and LaMont just coming ahead using his head arms, elbows and he’s pounding Robinson to him, this there’s no etiquette here.
Just there’s no rule book here.
This is a fight, we’re fighting for our lives.
Here, I’m fighting to get a chance at the world.
Middleweight title you know you’re fighting to get a chance at the welterweight and or a middleweight title.
I’M I’m not going to give you a chance, I’m not going to fight according to the rules, I’m not going to fight critty.
Just so it looks aesthetically pleasing or to make it easier for you, I’m going to try to kick your ass.
I’M going to do everything I can I’m going to hit you when the Adam’s apple, I’m going to hit you low, I’m going to hit you in the arms I’m going to hit you on the break.
I’M going to I’m going to use my head when you’re clinching I’m going to do everything I can I I don’t want to lose to you you’re not going to get a gift like you did the first time you fought I’m going to beat the hell out Of you and this flight went on, and you know it’s only a 10 round fight and lamada was smart to know that in a 10 round fight, rather than a 15 round fight, you can’t take time off in a 15 round fight.
You can take seconds off here and there he didn’t have that time, because he knew anytime.
He takes time off Sugar Ray’s gon na flash.
Some, you know spectacular combinations he’s going to steal them around.
I can’t do that.
The Mata was in there like, he was digging a trench and while his car was double part, he was just hammering Robinson first round second round third round fourth round, and you can see third round fourth round Robinson’s getting gassed.
I mean he’s in shape, but he’s taken a ferocious beating to the body.
The way to beat a guy like Robinson who depends on mobility and speed, is to Savage his body and lamada kept doing it.
Even you know, so, even when Robinson is clenching, him he’s hitting him to the body.
Even the referee goes like this he’s leaning forward with the left hook to the liver.
He you know, and the referee this thing Jake, you don’t hit on the break and lamada’s like you know, whatever who cares and he just keeps coming forward.
He knows that everyone wants to see this fight.
Robinson’S from Detroit lamotta’s got his own fans there.
No one’s going to disqualify lamada, so he just keeps going forward and pounding Robinson over and over and it’s just this inexorable tidal wave of leather and Robinson is doing its best to move.
But he can’t he’s Young and he’s in shape, but lamanna is beating the life out of him.
He’S pounding his body and the more his sides are getting sores he’s in agony and the more that happens.
His legs just aren’t working his legs, aren’t getting him out of out of Harm’s Way, quick enough, and even when he uses his legs to move and he’ll move to the side.
Lamont is still on him with a right hand.
Lamar is hitting him in the head.
You know on the eye in the eyes on purpose he’s targeting his Adam’s Apple he’s he he, you know he wants to hurt him in the throat he’s pounding his eyes, even in a clinch.
You know when they’re holding like this he’s coming up to get his eyes he’s going after his nose he’s doing everything he can to make it a street battle for, for Robinson, he doesn’t want Robinson to get into Rhythm.
Doesn’T want him to get set, doesn’t want him to get used to throwing those long, Jabs and coming in with the right hands.
He lamanna is fighting a smart fight he’s staying low and by staying it’s hard to punch down so by staying low and moving side to side.
It’S almost impossible to time a guy like that so Robinson’s having a very difficult time getting his jab in there and he’s having a very difficult timelining combinations and every time Robinson throws a jab or a right hand and misses the amount of counters him with a Thud, you know it counts him with the right hand, to the face a left hook to the liver counters him with a a left hook right here, just above the groin.
You know in the solar plexus hits him with the right hand on the side of the neck.
Lamada is just doing everything he can to make this the worst night of Robinson’s life and he’s succeeding.
He’S you know he’s beating the hell out of him and uh people aren’t believing what they’re seeing and Perry Wiley’s not very happy in Sugar, Ray Robinson’s Corner he’s saying: you’re, not fighting him.
The way I’m telling you to fight him and Robinson said I’m doing the best.
I can he’s a lot better than he was last time.
Lamada lamada learned from their last fight Robinson, it’s not that he didn’t learn, but he was so Superior to everyone else.
What more was he going to learn? He’D beaten? He was beating everyone out there lombarded to him with just another fight at that point in time, so he didn’t really think he had to prepare, especially for lamada he did, but he didn’t think this would be a different LaMotta than he fought the first time and It was Jacob realized, there can’t be a one-trick pony.
It can’t be a one note fighter.
I can’t just bull straight ahead because then he could.
You know you grab me or shove me to the side and then I’d have to chase him.
The Mata knew that he had to come in in such a way as to cut off the ring, and by that I mean – and we saw this last night with Kim zoo and Tony Harrison when when Harrison was against the robes, he would be taking five six.
Seven steps in either direction Zoo only took one or two.
He just had to turn and that’s what lamanna was doing.
Lamada cut off the ropes so when your guy’s moving you’re moving diagonally rather than straight and you’re, taking less steps, so you so if your guy’s moving to his left you’re taking one or two steps to get there first, that means that’s cut off for him.
You can’t get to that Avenue and then he’s going to move to Europe to his right and you’re, going to move one or two steps in that direction and he can’t move there and Lamar was brilliant at that, especially on that night and their last fight February 14Th, 1951 to sing Valentine’s Day Massacre.
I think LaMotta just had very little left in the tank because he couldn’t make the wait anymore and he was 175 pounds a month or about a month before the last fight with Robinson and to get down to 160, kill them um.
Looking back on him on his career, he probably would have been better served if he fought his whole career as a light heavyweight.
Even though he’s only five.
Nine problem, of course, is the money was in the middleweight division, much more money in the middleweights than in the light heavyweights.
Middleweights was the glamor division.
Why? Because most people are middleweights at least at that time.
Most people walked around at that weight.
So 175 pound man like heavyweight, would consider be considered to be a big man and lamado was physically stronger than Robinson, as were a lot of guys.
That fought him but Robinson was a tough guy and on this night lamada had his number, and you know this fight takes place in 1943 and lamado wins a 10 round decision, and so two years later they fight again – and you know it wasn’t unusual even back Then, for you know me to fight you on one night and then four weeks later fight you again and then four weeks after that fight you again and then three weeks later fight you again, regardless of who won any of the fights that was common.
If the fans liked it and they saw it – and they had a good time, then they were going to pay more to see it again.
Now, on September 26, 1945 um they fought again and at Kaminsky parking in Chicago LaMotta, weighed 159 Robinson, was closer.
He was 150.
and Robinson had you know in those two years uh since LaMotta beat him last time and grown into his his own body.
Excuse me, so sometimes it takes a fighter a while to do that.
You know guys that are awkward that are bigger.
You know especially gigantic guys, like Dyson Fury, you know it takes a long time for them to get used to their own body and their own side, so Robinson was now more comfortable as as fighting at 150 pounds, because the fight at Welter, he only had to Drop three pounds and he won a close split decision on Kaminsky Park.
Lamotta believed he won the fight.
Most people in the newspapers believe lamado won.
What’S interesting about this fight is um people say well, you know what uh right after he beat him Detroit.
They fought again a week later in New York and lamado on that fight, and this was really they’re getting it confused.
It was this fight in 45 in Chicago, which was very, very close, and the problem with Chicago, of course, is Chicago’s a mob Town.
It was run by the outfit and it was hard for uh the money to get a break in Chicago or anywhere now.
Did the mom fix this fight? We don’t know that we know that the mob fixed most fights in the 40s and 50s.
We know that Robinson wasn’t a mob fighter.
Originally he turned down um Frankie carbo’s offers.
You know you lose to this guy and then you beat him in the rematch and he said no and Robinson could say no, not because he had gangsters behind or black gangsters, because he was the biggest draw in the sport.
So Robinson said to carbo.
You know not to be rude, Mr Cardwell, but if I walk away your money goes down 80 percent and so Robinson, even when he lost they still had to give him his due.
Because you know he’s the money in the sport Robinson.
Wasn’T a well-ledged fighter by the way Robinson did this with lamanna, but basilio really hated them and Carmen told me many times how you know when they were supposed to fight at Yankee Stadium.
He fought him twice, but he did it with a lot of Fighters.
What Robinson would do is you’d be an hour before the fight and it’s being broadcast and Robinson would just say, I’m not going in the ring unless I get 25 more in basilio, look at him saying you’re getting a 75 or you’re getting a 65 35 split.
I’M not giving you up 25 of what I have left.
That’S ridiculous! I’M not fighting for that.
Little well, no fight! Then you got ta signed contract.
Well, we’ll go to court, but I’m not getting in the ring tonight.
And so what would happen? Is uh, basilio’s managers and other managers of other Fighters would give up a portion of their percentage to get Robinson in the ring.
Now it got Robinson, more money but of course, in the end, an antagonized, basilio and lamada a lot of other Fighters, and you don’t want to give a guy more motivation to pass your face in.
So this was quite common.
So in the early to mid 50s Robinson said, he’s had enough of boxing, he leaves he doesn’t want any more pressure from the mob he’s tired of it.
He goes in to Showbiz it’s already in show business, because boxing is entertainment.
Pretty comes goes to nightclubs, becomes a dancer, a singer and he’s all right, not great, but he’s all right and after about three years of this he has a meeting because he owned all of Harlem.
He had his restaurant.
She was raids, he had the great big Cadillac he’d go to Europe and travel and he’d have his manicurist with him.
He he’d have his hair stylist with him.
You know his masseuse.
He had a at the bat at that time.
Then they called a a dwarf that he carried with him.
A little person didn’t carry with him.
I mean Gary then took with him, and this was the way it was phrased in the paper back then so he was sort of a dilettante.
But after three years out of the ring he goes to meet with his business manager, who tells him you’re broke, and you owe hundreds of thousands to IRS.
How did that happen? Well, all these 20 businesses sugary Robinson’s, hair, styling, sugary, Robinson’s grocery store Sugar, Ray Robinson’s, uh manicure, pedicure, uh, Boutique Sugar, Ray Robinson’s clothing, store, sugary Robinson shoe, store Sugar, Ray Robinson’s television set store.
All of these places are managed by who his relatives and close friends who rip him off so now he’s got nothing so he’s got to close.
It all sell the businesses, it’s not enough to pay off the taxes.
It’S got to come back to boxing and now he’s got to make a deal with James Lawrence.
He runs the IBC international boxing club and that’s run by Frankie Carver.
The monster who took over Oni Madden took over from only Madden when Madden went into Exile in Arkansas he became the Godfather of Arkansas, so Carver was in front control of boxing then, and to make a deal with Norris means you had to make a deal with.
Carbo and fight the fights Carver wanted.
There is no evidence as far as I can see, or that I’ve heard from anyone that Robinson ever went in the tank for the mob.
Never through a fight he came back.
He lost his first fight back with Ralph Tiger Jones and he he comes back and he’s winning fights.
Eventually he beats Carl Bobo Olson for the title.
I think in two two or three rounds knocks him out, but before that he had the great uh February.
14.
1951 fight where he won the title from from Jake LaMotta.
Now I’m Mike basilio um the silly what didn’t particularly like Robinson, but when they had a knight in 65 at Madison Square Garden, to honor him.
They had former opponents in the ring and basilio was one of them and there were other Fighters there.
Lamotta wasn’t invited, although he lived less than two blocks from Madison Square Garden and the reason the model wasn’t invited was because he admitted to throwing a fight in front of the Catholic committee invested, getting um organized crimes, infiltration of boxing.
Now that committee, that Senate subcommittee still exists today, they still go after and look into fights today that they believe were had organized crime, influence and there’s quite a few.
So what had happened with Jake LaMotta was in order to get a fight for the world title.
You had to make a deal of carbo because carbo said you’re, not I don’t care who you’d be you’re, not getting a shot.
Unless you go through me, so he agreed to lose two cardboard’s fighter.
Blackjack Billy, Fox and blackjack Billy Fox was really a light heavyweight.
Couldn’T fight uh labata assured the commission for the fight? No, I don’t lose anyone.
I don’t go into the tank for anyone.
He loses in four rounds.
It was obviously a fix Robinson said he broke.
He had heard his uh, I think rotator cuff.
It’S not our spleen, excuse me, they shouldn’t believed them, and the commission believed them because it wasn’t the final ruler.
The final ruler was the mafia, with Frankie Garbo and now he said believe him, and so he gets his license back and he keeps fighting even though he went into the tank for the mob and the mob made a fortune off of him.
He still had to wait almost three years: nine fights and ended up paying another 30 Grand in cold cash to carbo before he gets a chance to beat Marcel Sudan.
That’S what the mob did to him now.
What’S sad here is when Robinson dies in 89.
He’S got maybe a half a million to his name when lamada dies um in 217 at the age of 95.
, lamanna had upwards of 10 to 15 million dollars.
He was very smart with the money he had.
They show him as a comedian, and you know and Raging Bull a lot of Raging.
Bull wasn’t true, although Jake said to me one time as mean as I was in that movie, I was a lot meaner in real life, so he had invested in condos and land in Florida and he made a lot of money off of it.
So he ended up in financially good shape and, although he would repeat stories when he got older, you could sit and have a conversation um with him, and I did – and you know he was an interesting guy.
I mean when I saw him in 209 to 10.
You know lamada was, I guess, 88, he had his young wife, that was in her 40s and and a kid he had like a seven or eight year old kid.
Now he had a daughter and two sons.
One son died of cancer.
The other son died in that plane crash over Gander Newfoundland and he said to me he thought the death of his two sons was punishment to him from God.
By the way he lived his life.
He said: that’s why a lot of times when he I said to him that sounds a bit far-fetched, but I understand what you’re saying you don’t want to disagree.
If the guy he’s obviously he’s still in pain – and he said a lot of times – you’d see him on the ropes in a fight and he’d.
Let a guy hit him and he said he did that because he thought he deserved the punishment for the way he lived his life.
That’S a bit of a skewed view.
Boxers can be like that at times.
Why do athletes can’t? But you know he he was the middleweight champion of the world and who am I to upset him because even at the age of 88 or 87 and I’m you know 49, I’m not going to take him up.
I it’s still Jake LaMotta, so he had wonderful stories um to tell – and I think I’ve mentioned this before he said in the movie when lamada or when Robinson beats him the last time and he goes over to him and he says he didn’t knock me down Right, it doesn’t count um, he said to me.
I never said that because he knocked he shredded my lips and knocked a lot of my teeth out broke my nose and he said I had to be carried to my corner.
I couldn’t catch my breath, I didn’t say a damn thing to him, not for many years and I said: do you hate him and he said no, I I don’t hate Ray.
I mean there were times.
I didn’t like some of the things he pulled, but I let it go.
You know raise a person, I’m a person, uh no reason for me to go after him or say bad things.
He was a great fighter and we became good friends um and you would think that’s odd, because lamado when he was young, didn’t look at anyone as his friend except it’s brother.
Joey, didn’t trust anyone, but these men made history together and when people look at their fights most of the time, they just remember the fight from February 14th 1951, but they had fights.
You know before that and of the six fights they had lamada won one officially.
I think you can give him credit for the Chicago one, which is a split decision, and I think the one before that uh in New York, which was given to Ray that one was very close.
I mean that could have gone either way.
So I I think, looking at it is 5-1 for Ray Robinson, wasn’t really correct.
Uh I mean that’s how it officially is, but we know that sometimes the official’s going, especially back in the 40s and 50s, was uh easily skewed uh.
Both of them were tremendous, draws.
Um, the fake that lamala won, I mean lamanna, was immensely proud and you have to give Robin some credit because Robinson didn’t make any bones about it.
He didn’t complain, he didn’t say I got a rod decision, he hit me illegally or he held me or he did this.
He said I lost to the better man.
The better man won tonight and all credit to him got to give him his due and that’s what boxing is all about.
This is why, last night, I was upset watching uh, the zoo, Harrison fight and, after the fight Tim Zoo, cursing repeatedly.
What’S my MF name? What’S my, they didn’t do that back then guys, like Robinson and lamada Joe Lewis, never cursed when he was interviewed, neither the George Foreman or Ali or Joe Frazier.
So there’s no need for that in sport of boxing.
If you get a chance watch, Robinson and Lamar watch everything you can uh on them, the 13th, the 13th round knockdown or stoppage.
Some 51 is a great fight, because lamado was in the fight for a long time and then he just ran out of steam.
Making the way killed him and, as I said, he was in middleweight, because there was more money at middleweight but body wise for him.
It would have been smarter to be at light heavyweight, but he didn’t want to take the 55-60 pay cut and what’s amazing, about lamanna courses, he ended up with all that money, even though the mob had stolen all this money.
But La model was not a predictable person, so the mob sort of was leery of him.
They controlled him in his fights, but you know they never knew.
If he was, I mean La model was in nightclubs or mob, guys would make passes at his wife and he would beat the hell out of them, and you know when these mob guys would complain to the superiors you know you got to do something about them.
They said they just don’t antagonize him.
This guy’s a nut case stay away from me and when lamada testified in front of the Opera commission, and when I spoke them, he said I had no fear of them.
I had a tremendous hatred of them like that.
Doesn’T come from being brave? I was just too stupid to know how and how much danger I was, and he said, but then again being that naive is probably a good thing, because if I wasn’t, I wouldn’t have done what I did a lot of the time.
He said I, you know, I told them off in front of their peers and I beat up a lot of those guys and there was never any blowback and he said that was just pure luck and uh.
I was lucky enough to to meet him on many occasions here in Toronto and in New York, uh uh.
I never had a chance to meet uh Robinson Robinson had a bad Dimension near the end of his life and he did have money problems, but uh um.
Angela Dundee’s good friend Melvin, dick Melvin was a man who owns the second or third largest Wine and Spirits company in the Southern United States, so he’s very well off.
He helped Ray Robinson.
In fact, Ray Robinson went to his bar mitzvah.
If you believe it, I mean this is a story.
He told an Angela’s funeral Angel introduced into Ray and Ray went to his bar mitzvah.
Imagine that Sugar Ray Robinson driving you to the apartment enter your prom in his pink Cadillac and he was the escort.
You know he acted like a butler or whatever, and they were good friends throughout their whole life because uh this was Mel’s hero and when Angelo brought him to stillman’s gym in New York, Mel would go in every day and just stare at Sugar Ray Robinson.
He didn’t care about the other Fighters, he didn’t care and Robinson notices, this white kid looking at him for like three weeks and he turns a kid every day you come in here.
What’S your problem, why are you doing this? Why are you staring at me because I love you and you’re my hero and Robinson just had tears coming down his face, I mean you know being born in the South moving to Detroit New York.
You know what segregation and Prejudice was the kids.
Didn’T this kid? Didn’T have it.
This was a young Jewish kid who just idolized him and they became good friends.
So after his bar mitzvah, this is a great story.
He’S got his bar mitzvah soon on and they go back to stillman’s, gym and Robinson hasn’t telling everyone.
I just said my apartment, so I did and Angelo Dundee who was fluent in Yiddish by the way was congratulating him and all the other guys were congratulating him and all the fighters, and he said, go tell Joe Joe Lewis and Joe Lewis was taking a shower And he literally opens up the shower curtain and there’s Joe Lewis completely naked showering.
He says Joe, I just had my bar mitzvah and, and he said good for you – son muscle, tough closed up close the shower curtain.
Please, and of course this was explained to me it’s hard to say this – I have to clean this up.
Joe Lewis was um, I don’t even know if you get a Milton bro reference, Joe Lewis friend of mine, a comedian Kenny Robinson um parents on the jazz club in Winnipeg, and he has black and white photographs that Joe Lewis coming up and when Joe would visit.
Um he would ask for all these different women of the evening to escort him, but their prices would go up six seven fold because they said Joe Lewis was too much man for one woman.
So when this kid walks in and opens the curtain and everyone’s standing out there, including themselves kind of a funny moment, anyways, that’s way off topic uh, it was Melvin dick who helped look after Ray Robinson, Ray Robinson.
I had dementia and he was with him a lot of the time, so Ray Robinson had a soft Landing.
It’S not like by many of the people that he knew or fought against, but certainly has to be considered the greatest fighter where people have lived pound per pound.
If you ask me, if you asked Angela Dundee my mentor, he’d say Willie Pep lamado rates up there lamada did more with what he had than any other fighter.
I ever saw he had skill and he had toughness and he had no fear and he didn’t not have any fear because he wasn’t bright, you can’t have fear, fear doesn’t enter into it at that level.
A lot of times you’ll see critics that I see that guy was afraid of that guy.
He doesn’t enter into it at the elite level of pro boxing fear only enters into it.
When you hurt your opponent, and you fear that you may have fatally injured but being scared of someone unless you’re fighting a listener format, it just didn’t enter into the OR Lewis it didn’t enter into it, lamada and Robinson are are inextricably linked together throughout the annals Of boxing as well, they should be people talk about the great fights three fights of Tony Zell and Rocky Graziano, Arturo Gotti and and Mickey Ward.
Imagine six fights like that between these two, where there was very little give and take, except for the last fight.
Every fight was close and went down the last couple seconds of the last round.
These were two of the all-time greatest Fighters and middleweight champions ever to have lived.
I’M Lou Eisen, that’s Ring talk.
I hope you had a good time.
See you again.
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This week I started the first of a four or five part series on the history of the mob and boxing and I’m sure you’ll enjoy that see you again next week.
At the same time, bye bye, thank you.
Transcribed
Foreign boxing writer and historian – and this is ring – talk – and I just want to thank our producer – the lovely Eric Boyce and he is Lovely by the way uh, because the picture he showed at the beginning is from that fight.
That was from the LaMotta Robinson fight, and that was my mistake.
I said first fight, it’s the second fight, but you see Robinson going through the Roadster Robinson was very young at that point, and also this is unbelievable.
So you have this fight and lamada enters the ring at 160 and a half Robinson enters the ring on that day at 144.
Although um Chris Dundee, the promoter Angelo’s brother, said he actually invented the ring at 141 and a half and and um on uh.
On that particular day, February, 5th 1943, in Detroit at the Olympia, and they had a fight previously on on October, 2nd 1942, in which uh Robinson won that fight by unanimous decision.
What’S interesting about um these fight, if you look at the you know, early careers of Ray Robinson and lamada, you know 1940s in the 50s you’ll see each of them fighting four five six times a month.
That’S what was done, then top guys today will fight twice a year.
Last night, Tony Harrison hadn’t fought in a year and a half and and um Tim Zoo, hadn’t fought in a year, so it was quite common back.
Then excuse me for fighters to not.
You know to fight four five six times a month, because the money wasn’t as good as it is.
Today you had to fight more often, and you know you needed to make a living, and it was the best way to stay in shape, plus these were hungry.
Guys and they wanted to get to the top of the ladder in their respective weight divisions Robinson because of his height 511.
You know it’s a welterweight, but we knew he would go up.
People knew he’d go up the middleweight, he won the Welterweight Title against Tommy Bell, but it only stayed in the division, a short time and moved up to middleweight and he fought middleweight.
While he was a welterweight and he could do it because he had the power and more importantly, he had the skills and the speed.
However, uh at the time, I think it was the 30th fight uh when the second time they fought Sugar Ray Robinson was 40-0 and I think lamada had already had 36 37 fights and lost a couple, one sugary and Robinson.
Anyone who thinks lamada had never faced.
Anyone like lamanna The Motto wasn’t like any fighter you’ve seen today.
People compare him to Mike Tyson to him that doesn’t do him Justice.
Do you know when you see a fight begin and the fighters – and this is quite common Fighters – come out and they’re probing for weaknesses, they’re? Looking for you to make the other fight to make an error, excuse me make a mistake and then they want to take advantage of it, which is one reason why, when I was in Cinderella, Man Ron Howard said he didn’t like the Rocky movies, because the Rocky Movies were throwing these guys were, throwing thousands of punches around and around and except for Matthew, sod, Mohammed late, heavyweight, title fight or other fights or smaller ways that rarely happens Fighters are probing.
It’S like a chess match, they’re looking for a mistake, and then they capitalize jump on you like a tiger on a wounded animal.
So what happens in this fight in their first fight? You know the bell rings and Robinson comes out to fight to Robinson on First and he’s expecting.
You know lamada to come out.
You know touch gloves and have her feeling out around lamada rushes him like a linebacker and Bulls him to the ropes and just starts pounding its body and pounding his head and in his corner he had Al silvani, who appeared in Rocky in a lot of movies.
Al savanty became an actor, but he was a great Corner.
Man and Lamar is also trained by his brother Joey and he’s just he’s bullying him up against the ropes to you know: that’s why they call them the Bronx bull, the Raging Bull.
He just got up there into the guy’s face.
He knew lamada was not um a pure Slugger, as people thought people thought he was just a walk-in.
Slugger guy would take a lot of shots to the head just to get one of his own ends.
That wasn’t true, lamada lived to be 95 and he was clear-headed on the day.
He died, never suffered from pugilistic and dementia, so lamada was smart, he’s 5’8 Robinson’s five eleven, I’m five nine and I met Jake a lot of the times and I don’t know if he was five.
Eight Angelo told me Dundee told me he was probably five six, but he said five eight anyways he knew uh like, and I I never understood this.
Some Fighters gave it some dope last night watching Tony Harrison and Tim Zoo, even though it’s a small ring, I’m thinking that Tony Harry about Tony Harrison.
If you keep moving and using your lateral movement, you’ll keep forcing Tim Zoo to reset himself.
You won’t let him get leverage on the shots.
That’S the way to fight a guy he’s a pressure fighter, but he didn’t do that.
He stood in front of zoo and and it’s a terrible beating, so lamanna knew going ahead against Robinson.
It’S a taller man for longer reach, and what does a guy like that need to be successful? He needs room Robinson needed room to stand back and get his long arms going and to use his lateral movement.
So lamada knew that he could.
He had to get under Robinson’s jab, like basilio, did years later and start hammering his body and and what he was told to do by Al Stefani and and and and uh Joey his brother, who he loved, unlike in the movie, they never had a falling out.
They were close throughout their whole life.
He got in close with with uh Sugar Ray Robinson and his head on his chest, but he put his left leg between Robinson’s legs, so when you’re doing that, you’re cutting Robinson’s balance off meaning, even when he’s against the ropes.
Like this, he can get shots off, but they’re arm shots.
He can’t get his full weight behind him and he can’t move to either side and when he tries to move Robinson, can or lamada comes forward of the shoulder and he’s pounding him.
But you got to give Robin some credit.
I mean Robinson was a tough son of a he took all those shots from lamata worked his way off the ropes, and it was a very close fight.
They gave it to Robinson by unanimous decision and lamada debated that for the rest of his life.
He thought I beat him, I mean look at who would you rather be? That’S that that’s the criteria? Look at us after the fight, I’m unmarked, which is unusual, he’s beaten up you’re gon na tell me that I lost that fight.
I mean Jake had a 16 18 pound weight advantage, so he loses that fight and he’s angry.
Now I mean Jacob’s angry at the world.
It’S a boxer, they say you can’t fight angry.
You make mistakes, Jake, fun, angry Jake! So did Duran Jake fought with a giant chip on his shoulder and he took it out and everyone he ever faced.
So they have their second fight of the six they had, and this was truly a great fight it took place in Detroit now.
People would think that Robinson would be the favorite, because, although he was born in the South, I believe in Georgia.
He he as Walker Smith.
He his family, moved to Detroit to black bottom and then moved to New York.
Robinson, as we know, is from the Bronx and but he fought a lot in Detroit in the early part of his career, so he became sort of a HomeTown favorite.
It became his his uh home away from home, so Robinson by the way uh was fighting in a tournament and his name’s Walker Smith, and the guy Ray Robinson who was supposed to fight Robinson, couldn’t get a card for the tournament he was under eight.
So it was the Golden Gloves tournament.
So when the guy didn’t show up, he said I’ll be Ray Robinson and he would.
He did so well that they mentioned him in the newspaper and then he he kept the name and then changed his name to that.
His trainer was degrade Harry Wiley, whose son who was the close friend of mine, Harry Wiley, Jr, passed away recently and his manager with George gainford.
Everyone gave gainford credit for Creative Robinson, but he didn’t.
He was a manager.
It was Henry Wiley who taught him how to fight all those moves he saw Robinson.
Do you know the double left hook? You know double jab left hook off the double Jab.
You know the right to the belly Left To The Head, the the ducking, the moving.
The slipping and sliding the shoulder roll that was all Harry Wiley, we taught Robinson Robinson, was a great student and he learned it and he learned it well and uh.
You know when he turned Pro um after his first couple fights I mean he was beaten early on.
You know, former Champions like fritzy zivic, Henry Armstrong.
It was great and um.
One of the reporters said to Harry.
You got a sweet fighter there.
My friend he is sweet and Harry Wiley said yep, he’s Swedish sugar and hence Sugar, Ray Robinson Bronx bull for for Jake LaMotta wasn’t any mystery.
He was built like a bull.
He had the temperament of a bull and uh.
Once the referee said.
Let’S fight that was his favorite moment in his life.
He’D live for battle, so we come upon this second fight February, 5th 1943.
In Detroit and once again, uh Lamont has got a 15 16 pound weight advantage and you know it it uh.
It was a really good fight and lamada had a specific game plan going in he.
He thought I had Robinson in the previous fight, but I let him get away from me.
You know he started to move and once Robinson moved, it was difficult.
Lamar was good at cutting the ring off, but Robinson was so quick and because he was so much lighter, Rob uh lamada had time trying to stop him.
How do you stop a guy like that? It’S difficult because Robinson’s great at fighting and and boxing technical boxing, but he’s also a tough guy and and you would think, a guy with a 16 pound weight advantage.
It was a hard puncher like lamada, for instance, when I look at lamotta’s ring record.
He had 106 fights, 86 83 wins, and you know many of those were Knockouts and, of course, Robinson had had twice as many 174 wins.
So these guys could fight.
Lamanna was doing his best in the second fight, but he knew he had to adopt a different strategy.
He couldn’t let up.
It was a 10 round fight, but he couldn’t take his foot off the gas pedal.
He literally could not allow Robinson to get away from him, so the picture you saw at the beginning of the show that’s from the two second or third round he dropped Robinson.
You know he hit him a good shot and rather than you know, after hitting him a good shot, some guys will wait and look for the perfect shot.
Lamada gon na do that after he hit him with that, you know Sledgehammer right hand and staggered him.
He hit him with a left hook in the liver and then another Sledgehammer writing in and Lamar Robinson tried to hold, but lamado, who was significantly shorter, was able to work his arms and shoulders free and keep belting him and Robinson went through the ropes.
It was a knockdown Robinson got up immediately.
You know he should have taken more of account, but he got up and and lamada.
You know when the referee looked at him and said you all right.
Yes, do you want to continue yes and the fight went on, but from the time Robinson said? Yes, the second time like that right on top of him, still pounding him, you know lamad is using his shoulders he’s putting his head right here in his throat in his Adam’s Apple, which is an old trick, because when you do that you get the other guy’s Head to move back and then all that Alma has to do with the shorter arms is take a half step backwards and whack him again over and over and over and when Robinson tries to cover up like this lamada is hitting him.
You know he’s hitting him with his arm.
Forearm elbow.
This is a fight.
This isn’t a dance.
You know I mean lamada said jokingly after I fought Sugar, Ray Robinson, so many times it’s a wonder.
I didn’t need diabetes or I didn’t need.
I didn’t need insulin.
It’S a wonder: I didn’t get diabetes, not need diabetes.
My mistakes – oh uh.
He was rough on Robinson but Robinson, didn’t complain.
It’S not like fights today where, where guys are always turning to the ref and complaining now last night, Harrison did hit Tim Zulo and look and Zoo moved back and did what Fighters have always done.
He touched his own cup and he said: hey that was low and and he’s not and Harrison acknowledged it that never happened back then, when you hit a guy low back then the other fighter, just he didn’t like it, but he that’s.
What are you going to do can’t complain to the referee referee doesn’t care, he can’t do anything about it.
The only way to stop a guy from hitting low is to hit him back low, and the perfect example of that was Matthew, Hatton against Canelo Alvarez.
When Matthew hadn’t kept hitting him behind the head, all these rabbit shots and the referee kept warning him.
And finally, after one clinch uh Canelo and I loved it turn Hatton around.
He was behind him and started pounding on his head like a speed bag and then said how do you like it and after that hat and didn’t do it again? That’S the only way to stop the guy from falling referee can’t do that.
It can take points away, but doesn’t mean the guy won’t do it again.
So lamanna are fighting now.
The fight takes place in 1943.
It’S significant because this is in the midst of World War II.
Uh Robinson was in the Army and he was in with uh Joe Lewis Robinson hated.
The Army, the Army back then, was segregated and it was just a uh, absolute hell on Earth for for um African-American servicemen and they got treated like garbage didn’t matter.
If you were Ray Robinson, they would still treated like garbage and challenge you to fight, and one day uh Joe Lewis and Robinson were walking somewhere they’ve been asked to go somewhere to a press conference.
You know to talk to the reporters about life over in Europe, or this was in the states life in the Army.
Excuse me in some lower ranking officer that said to blow to Joel’s.
Hey you and word get over here, get out of that line and Robinson said: that’s Joe Lewis.
That’S the Undisputed heavyweight champion.
I don’t care you stupid, n-word, you ain’t nothing, but an n-word to me.
Get over here and Robinson jumped the guy beat him up, and then you know both of them got arrested and Louis people would call Lewis later on and Uncle Tom.
But that certainly wasn’t true Lewis had a speech impediment, so he was hesitant to speak in public uh, but he had a lot of power out of the ring as well.
So he had a friend in Washington whom he called, who called someone else, and then they had the Secretary of State call the uh uh Commanding General at that camp and say what the hell’s going on.
Why is Joe Lewis being called this? You know he’s the best rep we have in the Army, he’s getting people to join the Army by the hundreds of thousands, including African Americans, him and Ray Robinson.
Why are you doing this and, of course, those officers that call them names and that have been? Were you know, bumped down several strikes and then kicked out of the army as well? They should have been Robinson didn’t want to be in the army.
He thought this isn’t my War.
This is a white person’s War and I shouldn’t be here: I’m getting treated poorly.
I could be in New York making money it’s hard to believe that the Allies won’t win.
If I’m not in the effort, so uh Robinson went, AWOL disappears for a couple weeks tells him when he shows up that he blacked out.
He had Amnesia and they believed him.
Basically, he just said you know I’m not going to do this anymore, and that was it, but because he was the great Ray Robinson he was able to get away with it.
Uh lamada, I think, because of his um temperament, you know that he he was so easily angered and so willing to fight.
He just didn’t want his type in the Army, although he probably would have been a good soldier.
So LaMotta was a guy who, when he trained especially for Robinson lamada, you see guys training today, but lamada would run 10 15 miles a day.
Seven days a week there were no weekends off for Jake LaMotta.
He didn’t look at it that way.
He wasn’t going to leave anything to chance.
He wasn’t gon na.
Let Ray Robinson beat him because he wasn’t in shape.
So when he was told you do a thousand sit-ups, he said.
Ah, that’s nothing! I’Ll do five thousand sit-ups and 5 000 push-ups and five thousand chin UPS.
He wanted to be able, you know to take on a tank.
Lamada wasn’t going to leave anything the chance.
Robinson’S training camps were were a lot more uh lighthearted, but he worked hard.
He he was great at skipping rope.
He was great on the speed bag right on the heavy bag, and you know back then, unlike today, where guys get into spar and they wail on each other back then what they did was they’d work on certain situations.
So all of Robinson’s for the second fight with lamanna hisparent partners, uh, were five, eight, five, nine and they all mimicked, Jake, lamottas, uh style and and what Harry Wiley had him work on was you’re against the ropes.
We’Ll start like this, you put your foot your leg between raised legs and you have your shoulder, pinning them in and then they’d start this wiring and he would say to Ray.
How do we get out of this? What what do you do and why we would get in the ring with them, and it would say when he leans forward like this, you can.
You know you can use your right arm to push his head away or put your arm over and hold them down, and when the referee breaks you, you can move along the other side of the ropes and get free, but when it gets close like that, you Got ta tie him up and you got ta move your head to the side or move it farther back because he’s going to keep doing that to you.
Conversely, in lamata’s Camp you know lamada, it’s not that he disrespected Robinson.
He just thought I can beat him he’s not special.
Like people say he is and and so what he was doing at that time.
He had guys imitating Robinson and he was just looking for new ways.
You know to try to trap him in the corner or try to trap him against the ropes against the ropes during the corner.
When you don’t have your leverage behind you and all you can do, is stand there and take shots.
That was the best thing for a lamada of lamotica trap.
You he could take you out so Robinson is there and at his camp lamotta’s at his camp and he’s thinking, there’s got to be different ways that I can do this and he realized speed.
I can beat him with speed now Robinson was blindingly fast hand, speed and foot speed.
The Motto was quick: there’s a distinct difference between fats and quick, and I’ve spoken about this before fast is if two fighters are facing each other and they both throw punches.
Whoever gets there first is the fastest quick is.
When you see a mistake, your opponent makes and you capitalize on it before you can correct his mistake.
That’S quick and lamado was quit, so lamanna knew when when that fight began, the first thing he does is he he doesn’t walk.
He runs right out at Robinson and Robinson before he could do anything.
It’S just trying to get out of the way you know he’s.
Trying to land his jab, but lamotta’s bobbing up and down he’s moving side to side and Robinson or excuse me, lamanna’s, just touching him.
So, even if lamada, you know, throws the left hand and, and the jab just misses him like this – he’s still going to come back and grab Robinson’s head he’s, still going to hit him to the side and grab his left arm.
So he’s still going to keep grabbing him and when he grabs him he can hit him.
He wants to make it a street for all.
He wants to rough him up for the whole time.
He doesn’t want to get Robinson the room to be eloquent.
He doesn’t want her elegant.
Excuse me not eloquent eloquence.
When you speak, he doesn’t want him to be elegant in the ring.
He doesn’t want him a chance to get into his rhythm, where he can just keep circling lamada and keep making lamata shift and then reset himself continuously and then lamada has the wing punches.
That’S what Robinson wants to do just keep him on the end of the jab, and that was a smart way to fight lamanna at that time, but, as Robinson grew into the wake you know.
People realize that this is one tough son of a and Robinson didn’t hesitate to stand there and slug inside a ring with a guy like lamanna.
Don’T forget, Robinson had trouble with basilio who was five six and basilia.
You know just butchered Robinson, their first fighting Yankee Stadium in 57 because he had him in the corner.
He wouldn’t let Robinson get out.
He was good at that.
Basilia was a master at getting under the other man’s jab and and pounding his body, and this is what Lamar was doing.
La motto was much stronger than basilio.
So LaMotta was you know.
The Sylvia was a Welter who came up.
The middle Rob LaMotta was born in middleweight, so LaMotta is using everything in his power and he’s rushing at him like a linebacker.
What other, quarterback and he’s you know, he’s Robinson’s holding him, but when Robinson tries to hold him lamada pushes him back against the ropes and Robinson’s.
Looking to the referee and LaMont just coming ahead using his head arms, elbows and he’s pounding Robinson to him, this there’s no etiquette here.
Just there’s no rule book here.
This is a fight, we’re fighting for our lives.
Here, I’m fighting to get a chance at the world.
Middleweight title you know you’re fighting to get a chance at the welterweight and or a middleweight title.
I’M I’m not going to give you a chance, I’m not going to fight according to the rules, I’m not going to fight critty.
Just so it looks aesthetically pleasing or to make it easier for you, I’m going to try to kick your ass.
I’M going to do everything I can I’m going to hit you when the Adam’s apple, I’m going to hit you low, I’m going to hit you in the arms I’m going to hit you on the break.
I’M going to I’m going to use my head when you’re clinching I’m going to do everything I can I I don’t want to lose to you you’re not going to get a gift like you did the first time you fought I’m going to beat the hell out Of you and this flight went on, and you know it’s only a 10 round fight and lamada was smart to know that in a 10 round fight, rather than a 15 round fight, you can’t take time off in a 15 round fight.
You can take seconds off here and there he didn’t have that time, because he knew anytime.
He takes time off Sugar Ray’s gon na flash.
Some, you know spectacular combinations he’s going to steal them around.
I can’t do that.
The Mata was in there like, he was digging a trench and while his car was double part, he was just hammering Robinson first round second round third round fourth round, and you can see third round fourth round Robinson’s getting gassed.
I mean he’s in shape, but he’s taken a ferocious beating to the body.
The way to beat a guy like Robinson who depends on mobility and speed, is to Savage his body and lamada kept doing it.
Even you know, so, even when Robinson is clenching, him he’s hitting him to the body.
Even the referee goes like this he’s leaning forward with the left hook to the liver.
He you know, and the referee this thing Jake, you don’t hit on the break and lamada’s like you know, whatever who cares and he just keeps coming forward.
He knows that everyone wants to see this fight.
Robinson’S from Detroit lamotta’s got his own fans there.
No one’s going to disqualify lamada, so he just keeps going forward and pounding Robinson over and over and it’s just this inexorable tidal wave of leather and Robinson is doing its best to move.
But he can’t he’s Young and he’s in shape, but lamanna is beating the life out of him.
He’S pounding his body and the more his sides are getting sores he’s in agony and the more that happens.
His legs just aren’t working his legs, aren’t getting him out of out of Harm’s Way, quick enough, and even when he uses his legs to move and he’ll move to the side.
Lamont is still on him with a right hand.
Lamar is hitting him in the head.
You know on the eye in the eyes on purpose he’s targeting his Adam’s Apple he’s he he, you know he wants to hurt him in the throat he’s pounding his eyes, even in a clinch.
You know when they’re holding like this he’s coming up to get his eyes he’s going after his nose he’s doing everything he can to make it a street battle for, for Robinson, he doesn’t want Robinson to get into Rhythm.
Doesn’T want him to get set, doesn’t want him to get used to throwing those long, Jabs and coming in with the right hands.
He lamanna is fighting a smart fight he’s staying low and by staying it’s hard to punch down so by staying low and moving side to side.
It’S almost impossible to time a guy like that so Robinson’s having a very difficult time getting his jab in there and he’s having a very difficult timelining combinations and every time Robinson throws a jab or a right hand and misses the amount of counters him with a Thud, you know it counts him with the right hand, to the face a left hook to the liver counters him with a a left hook right here, just above the groin.
You know in the solar plexus hits him with the right hand on the side of the neck.
Lamada is just doing everything he can to make this the worst night of Robinson’s life and he’s succeeding.
He’S you know he’s beating the hell out of him and uh people aren’t believing what they’re seeing and Perry Wiley’s not very happy in Sugar, Ray Robinson’s Corner he’s saying: you’re, not fighting him.
The way I’m telling you to fight him and Robinson said I’m doing the best.
I can he’s a lot better than he was last time.
Lamada lamada learned from their last fight Robinson, it’s not that he didn’t learn, but he was so Superior to everyone else.
What more was he going to learn? He’D beaten? He was beating everyone out there lombarded to him with just another fight at that point in time, so he didn’t really think he had to prepare, especially for lamada he did, but he didn’t think this would be a different LaMotta than he fought the first time and It was Jacob realized, there can’t be a one-trick pony.
It can’t be a one note fighter.
I can’t just bull straight ahead because then he could.
You know you grab me or shove me to the side and then I’d have to chase him.
The Mata knew that he had to come in in such a way as to cut off the ring, and by that I mean – and we saw this last night with Kim zoo and Tony Harrison when when Harrison was against the robes, he would be taking five six.
Seven steps in either direction Zoo only took one or two.
He just had to turn and that’s what lamanna was doing.
Lamada cut off the ropes so when your guy’s moving you’re moving diagonally rather than straight and you’re, taking less steps, so you so if your guy’s moving to his left you’re taking one or two steps to get there first, that means that’s cut off for him.
You can’t get to that Avenue and then he’s going to move to Europe to his right and you’re, going to move one or two steps in that direction and he can’t move there and Lamar was brilliant at that, especially on that night and their last fight February 14Th, 1951 to sing Valentine’s Day Massacre.
I think LaMotta just had very little left in the tank because he couldn’t make the wait anymore and he was 175 pounds a month or about a month before the last fight with Robinson and to get down to 160, kill them um.
Looking back on him on his career, he probably would have been better served if he fought his whole career as a light heavyweight.
Even though he’s only five.
Nine problem, of course, is the money was in the middleweight division, much more money in the middleweights than in the light heavyweights.
Middleweights was the glamor division.
Why? Because most people are middleweights at least at that time.
Most people walked around at that weight.
So 175 pound man like heavyweight, would consider be considered to be a big man and lamado was physically stronger than Robinson, as were a lot of guys.
That fought him but Robinson was a tough guy and on this night lamada had his number, and you know this fight takes place in 1943 and lamado wins a 10 round decision, and so two years later they fight again – and you know it wasn’t unusual even back Then, for you know me to fight you on one night and then four weeks later fight you again and then four weeks after that fight you again and then three weeks later fight you again, regardless of who won any of the fights that was common.
If the fans liked it and they saw it – and they had a good time, then they were going to pay more to see it again.
Now, on September 26, 1945 um they fought again and at Kaminsky parking in Chicago LaMotta, weighed 159 Robinson, was closer.
He was 150.
and Robinson had you know in those two years uh since LaMotta beat him last time and grown into his his own body.
Excuse me, so sometimes it takes a fighter a while to do that.
You know guys that are awkward that are bigger.
You know especially gigantic guys, like Dyson Fury, you know it takes a long time for them to get used to their own body and their own side, so Robinson was now more comfortable as as fighting at 150 pounds, because the fight at Welter, he only had to Drop three pounds and he won a close split decision on Kaminsky Park.
Lamotta believed he won the fight.
Most people in the newspapers believe lamado won.
What’S interesting about this fight is um people say well, you know what uh right after he beat him Detroit.
They fought again a week later in New York and lamado on that fight, and this was really they’re getting it confused.
It was this fight in 45 in Chicago, which was very, very close, and the problem with Chicago, of course, is Chicago’s a mob Town.
It was run by the outfit and it was hard for uh the money to get a break in Chicago or anywhere now.
Did the mom fix this fight? We don’t know that we know that the mob fixed most fights in the 40s and 50s.
We know that Robinson wasn’t a mob fighter.
Originally he turned down um Frankie carbo’s offers.
You know you lose to this guy and then you beat him in the rematch and he said no and Robinson could say no, not because he had gangsters behind or black gangsters, because he was the biggest draw in the sport.
So Robinson said to carbo.
You know not to be rude, Mr Cardwell, but if I walk away your money goes down 80 percent and so Robinson, even when he lost they still had to give him his due.
Because you know he’s the money in the sport Robinson.
Wasn’T a well-ledged fighter by the way Robinson did this with lamanna, but basilio really hated them and Carmen told me many times how you know when they were supposed to fight at Yankee Stadium.
He fought him twice, but he did it with a lot of Fighters.
What Robinson would do is you’d be an hour before the fight and it’s being broadcast and Robinson would just say, I’m not going in the ring unless I get 25 more in basilio, look at him saying you’re getting a 75 or you’re getting a 65 35 split.
I’M not giving you up 25 of what I have left.
That’S ridiculous! I’M not fighting for that.
Little well, no fight! Then you got ta signed contract.
Well, we’ll go to court, but I’m not getting in the ring tonight.
And so what would happen? Is uh, basilio’s managers and other managers of other Fighters would give up a portion of their percentage to get Robinson in the ring.
Now it got Robinson, more money but of course, in the end, an antagonized, basilio and lamada a lot of other Fighters, and you don’t want to give a guy more motivation to pass your face in.
So this was quite common.
So in the early to mid 50s Robinson said, he’s had enough of boxing, he leaves he doesn’t want any more pressure from the mob he’s tired of it.
He goes in to Showbiz it’s already in show business, because boxing is entertainment.
Pretty comes goes to nightclubs, becomes a dancer, a singer and he’s all right, not great, but he’s all right and after about three years of this he has a meeting because he owned all of Harlem.
He had his restaurant.
She was raids, he had the great big Cadillac he’d go to Europe and travel and he’d have his manicurist with him.
He he’d have his hair stylist with him.
You know his masseuse.
He had a at the bat at that time.
Then they called a a dwarf that he carried with him.
A little person didn’t carry with him.
I mean Gary then took with him, and this was the way it was phrased in the paper back then so he was sort of a dilettante.
But after three years out of the ring he goes to meet with his business manager, who tells him you’re broke, and you owe hundreds of thousands to IRS.
How did that happen? Well, all these 20 businesses sugary Robinson’s, hair, styling, sugary, Robinson’s grocery store Sugar, Ray Robinson’s, uh manicure, pedicure, uh, Boutique Sugar, Ray Robinson’s clothing, store, sugary Robinson shoe, store Sugar, Ray Robinson’s television set store.
All of these places are managed by who his relatives and close friends who rip him off so now he’s got nothing so he’s got to close.
It all sell the businesses, it’s not enough to pay off the taxes.
It’S got to come back to boxing and now he’s got to make a deal with James Lawrence.
He runs the IBC international boxing club and that’s run by Frankie Carver.
The monster who took over Oni Madden took over from only Madden when Madden went into Exile in Arkansas he became the Godfather of Arkansas, so Carver was in front control of boxing then, and to make a deal with Norris means you had to make a deal with.
Carbo and fight the fights Carver wanted.
There is no evidence as far as I can see, or that I’ve heard from anyone that Robinson ever went in the tank for the mob.
Never through a fight he came back.
He lost his first fight back with Ralph Tiger Jones and he he comes back and he’s winning fights.
Eventually he beats Carl Bobo Olson for the title.
I think in two two or three rounds knocks him out, but before that he had the great uh February.
14.
1951 fight where he won the title from from Jake LaMotta.
Now I’m Mike basilio um the silly what didn’t particularly like Robinson, but when they had a knight in 65 at Madison Square Garden, to honor him.
They had former opponents in the ring and basilio was one of them and there were other Fighters there.
Lamotta wasn’t invited, although he lived less than two blocks from Madison Square Garden and the reason the model wasn’t invited was because he admitted to throwing a fight in front of the Catholic committee invested, getting um organized crimes, infiltration of boxing.
Now that committee, that Senate subcommittee still exists today, they still go after and look into fights today that they believe were had organized crime, influence and there’s quite a few.
So what had happened with Jake LaMotta was in order to get a fight for the world title.
You had to make a deal of carbo because carbo said you’re, not I don’t care who you’d be you’re, not getting a shot.
Unless you go through me, so he agreed to lose two cardboard’s fighter.
Blackjack Billy, Fox and blackjack Billy Fox was really a light heavyweight.
Couldn’T fight uh labata assured the commission for the fight? No, I don’t lose anyone.
I don’t go into the tank for anyone.
He loses in four rounds.
It was obviously a fix Robinson said he broke.
He had heard his uh, I think rotator cuff.
It’S not our spleen, excuse me, they shouldn’t believed them, and the commission believed them because it wasn’t the final ruler.
The final ruler was the mafia, with Frankie Garbo and now he said believe him, and so he gets his license back and he keeps fighting even though he went into the tank for the mob and the mob made a fortune off of him.
He still had to wait almost three years: nine fights and ended up paying another 30 Grand in cold cash to carbo before he gets a chance to beat Marcel Sudan.
That’S what the mob did to him now.
What’S sad here is when Robinson dies in 89.
He’S got maybe a half a million to his name when lamada dies um in 217 at the age of 95.
, lamanna had upwards of 10 to 15 million dollars.
He was very smart with the money he had.
They show him as a comedian, and you know and Raging Bull a lot of Raging.
Bull wasn’t true, although Jake said to me one time as mean as I was in that movie, I was a lot meaner in real life, so he had invested in condos and land in Florida and he made a lot of money off of it.
So he ended up in financially good shape and, although he would repeat stories when he got older, you could sit and have a conversation um with him, and I did – and you know he was an interesting guy.
I mean when I saw him in 209 to 10.
You know lamada was, I guess, 88, he had his young wife, that was in her 40s and and a kid he had like a seven or eight year old kid.
Now he had a daughter and two sons.
One son died of cancer.
The other son died in that plane crash over Gander Newfoundland and he said to me he thought the death of his two sons was punishment to him from God.
By the way he lived his life.
He said: that’s why a lot of times when he I said to him that sounds a bit far-fetched, but I understand what you’re saying you don’t want to disagree.
If the guy he’s obviously he’s still in pain – and he said a lot of times – you’d see him on the ropes in a fight and he’d.
Let a guy hit him and he said he did that because he thought he deserved the punishment for the way he lived his life.
That’S a bit of a skewed view.
Boxers can be like that at times.
Why do athletes can’t? But you know he he was the middleweight champion of the world and who am I to upset him because even at the age of 88 or 87 and I’m you know 49, I’m not going to take him up.
I it’s still Jake LaMotta, so he had wonderful stories um to tell – and I think I’ve mentioned this before he said in the movie when lamada or when Robinson beats him the last time and he goes over to him and he says he didn’t knock me down Right, it doesn’t count um, he said to me.
I never said that because he knocked he shredded my lips and knocked a lot of my teeth out broke my nose and he said I had to be carried to my corner.
I couldn’t catch my breath, I didn’t say a damn thing to him, not for many years and I said: do you hate him and he said no, I I don’t hate Ray.
I mean there were times.
I didn’t like some of the things he pulled, but I let it go.
You know raise a person, I’m a person, uh no reason for me to go after him or say bad things.
He was a great fighter and we became good friends um and you would think that’s odd, because lamado when he was young, didn’t look at anyone as his friend except it’s brother.
Joey, didn’t trust anyone, but these men made history together and when people look at their fights most of the time, they just remember the fight from February 14th 1951, but they had fights.
You know before that and of the six fights they had lamada won one officially.
I think you can give him credit for the Chicago one, which is a split decision, and I think the one before that uh in New York, which was given to Ray that one was very close.
I mean that could have gone either way.
So I I think, looking at it is 5-1 for Ray Robinson, wasn’t really correct.
Uh I mean that’s how it officially is, but we know that sometimes the official’s going, especially back in the 40s and 50s, was uh easily skewed uh.
Both of them were tremendous, draws.
Um, the fake that lamala won, I mean lamanna, was immensely proud and you have to give Robin some credit because Robinson didn’t make any bones about it.
He didn’t complain, he didn’t say I got a rod decision, he hit me illegally or he held me or he did this.
He said I lost to the better man.
The better man won tonight and all credit to him got to give him his due and that’s what boxing is all about.
This is why, last night, I was upset watching uh, the zoo, Harrison fight and, after the fight Tim Zoo, cursing repeatedly.
What’S my MF name? What’S my, they didn’t do that back then guys, like Robinson and lamada Joe Lewis, never cursed when he was interviewed, neither the George Foreman or Ali or Joe Frazier.
So there’s no need for that in sport of boxing.
If you get a chance watch, Robinson and Lamar watch everything you can uh on them, the 13th, the 13th round knockdown or stoppage.
Some 51 is a great fight, because lamado was in the fight for a long time and then he just ran out of steam.
Making the way killed him and, as I said, he was in middleweight, because there was more money at middleweight but body wise for him.
It would have been smarter to be at light heavyweight, but he didn’t want to take the 55-60 pay cut and what’s amazing, about lamanna courses, he ended up with all that money, even though the mob had stolen all this money.
But La model was not a predictable person, so the mob sort of was leery of him.
They controlled him in his fights, but you know they never knew.
If he was, I mean La model was in nightclubs or mob, guys would make passes at his wife and he would beat the hell out of them, and you know when these mob guys would complain to the superiors you know you got to do something about them.
They said they just don’t antagonize him.
This guy’s a nut case stay away from me and when lamada testified in front of the Opera commission, and when I spoke them, he said I had no fear of them.
I had a tremendous hatred of them like that.
Doesn’T come from being brave? I was just too stupid to know how and how much danger I was, and he said, but then again being that naive is probably a good thing, because if I wasn’t, I wouldn’t have done what I did a lot of the time.
He said I, you know, I told them off in front of their peers and I beat up a lot of those guys and there was never any blowback and he said that was just pure luck and uh.
I was lucky enough to to meet him on many occasions here in Toronto and in New York, uh uh.
I never had a chance to meet uh Robinson Robinson had a bad Dimension near the end of his life and he did have money problems, but uh um.
Angela Dundee’s good friend Melvin, dick Melvin was a man who owns the second or third largest Wine and Spirits company in the Southern United States, so he’s very well off.
He helped Ray Robinson.
In fact, Ray Robinson went to his bar mitzvah.
If you believe it, I mean this is a story.
He told an Angela’s funeral Angel introduced into Ray and Ray went to his bar mitzvah.
Imagine that Sugar Ray Robinson driving you to the apartment enter your prom in his pink Cadillac and he was the escort.
You know he acted like a butler or whatever, and they were good friends throughout their whole life because uh this was Mel’s hero and when Angelo brought him to stillman’s gym in New York, Mel would go in every day and just stare at Sugar Ray Robinson.
He didn’t care about the other Fighters, he didn’t care and Robinson notices, this white kid looking at him for like three weeks and he turns a kid every day you come in here.
What’S your problem, why are you doing this? Why are you staring at me because I love you and you’re my hero and Robinson just had tears coming down his face, I mean you know being born in the South moving to Detroit New York.
You know what segregation and Prejudice was the kids.
Didn’T this kid? Didn’T have it.
This was a young Jewish kid who just idolized him and they became good friends.
So after his bar mitzvah, this is a great story.
He’S got his bar mitzvah soon on and they go back to stillman’s, gym and Robinson hasn’t telling everyone.
I just said my apartment, so I did and Angelo Dundee who was fluent in Yiddish by the way was congratulating him and all the other guys were congratulating him and all the fighters, and he said, go tell Joe Joe Lewis and Joe Lewis was taking a shower And he literally opens up the shower curtain and there’s Joe Lewis completely naked showering.
He says Joe, I just had my bar mitzvah and, and he said good for you – son muscle, tough closed up close the shower curtain.
Please, and of course this was explained to me it’s hard to say this – I have to clean this up.
Joe Lewis was um, I don’t even know if you get a Milton bro reference, Joe Lewis friend of mine, a comedian Kenny Robinson um parents on the jazz club in Winnipeg, and he has black and white photographs that Joe Lewis coming up and when Joe would visit.
Um he would ask for all these different women of the evening to escort him, but their prices would go up six seven fold because they said Joe Lewis was too much man for one woman.
So when this kid walks in and opens the curtain and everyone’s standing out there, including themselves kind of a funny moment, anyways, that’s way off topic uh, it was Melvin dick who helped look after Ray Robinson, Ray Robinson.
I had dementia and he was with him a lot of the time, so Ray Robinson had a soft Landing.
It’S not like by many of the people that he knew or fought against, but certainly has to be considered the greatest fighter where people have lived pound per pound.
If you ask me, if you asked Angela Dundee my mentor, he’d say Willie Pep lamado rates up there lamada did more with what he had than any other fighter.
I ever saw he had skill and he had toughness and he had no fear and he didn’t not have any fear because he wasn’t bright, you can’t have fear, fear doesn’t enter into it at that level.
A lot of times you’ll see critics that I see that guy was afraid of that guy.
He doesn’t enter into it at the elite level of pro boxing fear only enters into it.
When you hurt your opponent, and you fear that you may have fatally injured but being scared of someone unless you’re fighting a listener format, it just didn’t enter into the OR Lewis it didn’t enter into it, lamada and Robinson are are inextricably linked together throughout the annals Of boxing as well, they should be people talk about the great fights three fights of Tony Zell and Rocky Graziano, Arturo Gotti and and Mickey Ward.
Imagine six fights like that between these two, where there was very little give and take, except for the last fight.
Every fight was close and went down the last couple seconds of the last round.
These were two of the all-time greatest Fighters and middleweight champions ever to have lived.
I’M Lou Eisen, that’s Ring talk.
I hope you had a good time.
See you again.
Next week, please visit my sub stack luizen.
substack.
com Once Upon a Time in the prize Wing prize ring.
This week I started the first of a four or five part series on the history of the mob and boxing and I’m sure you’ll enjoy that see you again next week.
At the same time, bye bye, thank you.
Transcribed
Foreign boxing writer and historian – and this is ring – talk – and I just want to thank our producer – the lovely Eric Boyce and he is Lovely by the way uh, because the picture he showed at the beginning is from that fight.
That was from the LaMotta Robinson fight, and that was my mistake.
I said first fight, it’s the second fight, but you see Robinson going through the Roadster Robinson was very young at that point, and also this is unbelievable.
So you have this fight and lamada enters the ring at 160 and a half Robinson enters the ring on that day at 144.
Although um Chris Dundee, the promoter Angelo’s brother, said he actually invented the ring at 141 and a half and and um on uh.
On that particular day, February, 5th 1943, in Detroit at the Olympia, and they had a fight previously on on October, 2nd 1942, in which uh Robinson won that fight by unanimous decision.
What’S interesting about um these fight, if you look at the you know, early careers of Ray Robinson and lamada, you know 1940s in the 50s you’ll see each of them fighting four five six times a month.
That’S what was done, then top guys today will fight twice a year.
Last night, Tony Harrison hadn’t fought in a year and a half and and um Tim Zoo, hadn’t fought in a year, so it was quite common back.
Then excuse me for fighters to not.
You know to fight four five six times a month, because the money wasn’t as good as it is.
Today you had to fight more often, and you know you needed to make a living, and it was the best way to stay in shape, plus these were hungry.
Guys and they wanted to get to the top of the ladder in their respective weight divisions Robinson because of his height 511.
You know it’s a welterweight, but we knew he would go up.
People knew he’d go up the middleweight, he won the Welterweight Title against Tommy Bell, but it only stayed in the division, a short time and moved up to middleweight and he fought middleweight.
While he was a welterweight and he could do it because he had the power and more importantly, he had the skills and the speed.
However, uh at the time, I think it was the 30th fight uh when the second time they fought Sugar Ray Robinson was 40-0 and I think lamada had already had 36 37 fights and lost a couple, one sugary and Robinson.
Anyone who thinks lamada had never faced.
Anyone like lamanna The Motto wasn’t like any fighter you’ve seen today.
People compare him to Mike Tyson to him that doesn’t do him Justice.
Do you know when you see a fight begin and the fighters – and this is quite common Fighters – come out and they’re probing for weaknesses, they’re? Looking for you to make the other fight to make an error, excuse me make a mistake and then they want to take advantage of it, which is one reason why, when I was in Cinderella, Man Ron Howard said he didn’t like the Rocky movies, because the Rocky Movies were throwing these guys were, throwing thousands of punches around and around and except for Matthew, sod, Mohammed late, heavyweight, title fight or other fights or smaller ways that rarely happens Fighters are probing.
It’S like a chess match, they’re looking for a mistake, and then they capitalize jump on you like a tiger on a wounded animal.
So what happens in this fight in their first fight? You know the bell rings and Robinson comes out to fight to Robinson on First and he’s expecting.
You know lamada to come out.
You know touch gloves and have her feeling out around lamada rushes him like a linebacker and Bulls him to the ropes and just starts pounding its body and pounding his head and in his corner he had Al silvani, who appeared in Rocky in a lot of movies.
Al savanty became an actor, but he was a great Corner.
Man and Lamar is also trained by his brother Joey and he’s just he’s bullying him up against the ropes to you know: that’s why they call them the Bronx bull, the Raging Bull.
He just got up there into the guy’s face.
He knew lamada was not um a pure Slugger, as people thought people thought he was just a walk-in.
Slugger guy would take a lot of shots to the head just to get one of his own ends.
That wasn’t true, lamada lived to be 95 and he was clear-headed on the day.
He died, never suffered from pugilistic and dementia, so lamada was smart, he’s 5’8 Robinson’s five eleven, I’m five nine and I met Jake a lot of the times and I don’t know if he was five.
Eight Angelo told me Dundee told me he was probably five six, but he said five eight anyways he knew uh like, and I I never understood this.
Some Fighters gave it some dope last night watching Tony Harrison and Tim Zoo, even though it’s a small ring, I’m thinking that Tony Harry about Tony Harrison.
If you keep moving and using your lateral movement, you’ll keep forcing Tim Zoo to reset himself.
You won’t let him get leverage on the shots.
That’S the way to fight a guy he’s a pressure fighter, but he didn’t do that.
He stood in front of zoo and and it’s a terrible beating, so lamanna knew going ahead against Robinson.
It’S a taller man for longer reach, and what does a guy like that need to be successful? He needs room Robinson needed room to stand back and get his long arms going and to use his lateral movement.
So lamada knew that he could.
He had to get under Robinson’s jab, like basilio, did years later and start hammering his body and and what he was told to do by Al Stefani and and and and uh Joey his brother, who he loved, unlike in the movie, they never had a falling out.
They were close throughout their whole life.
He got in close with with uh Sugar Ray Robinson and his head on his chest, but he put his left leg between Robinson’s legs, so when you’re doing that, you’re cutting Robinson’s balance off meaning, even when he’s against the ropes.
Like this, he can get shots off, but they’re arm shots.
He can’t get his full weight behind him and he can’t move to either side and when he tries to move Robinson, can or lamada comes forward of the shoulder and he’s pounding him.
But you got to give Robin some credit.
I mean Robinson was a tough son of a he took all those shots from lamata worked his way off the ropes, and it was a very close fight.
They gave it to Robinson by unanimous decision and lamada debated that for the rest of his life.
He thought I beat him, I mean look at who would you rather be? That’S that that’s the criteria? Look at us after the fight, I’m unmarked, which is unusual, he’s beaten up you’re gon na tell me that I lost that fight.
I mean Jake had a 16 18 pound weight advantage, so he loses that fight and he’s angry.
Now I mean Jacob’s angry at the world.
It’S a boxer, they say you can’t fight angry.
You make mistakes, Jake, fun, angry Jake! So did Duran Jake fought with a giant chip on his shoulder and he took it out and everyone he ever faced.
So they have their second fight of the six they had, and this was truly a great fight it took place in Detroit now.
People would think that Robinson would be the favorite, because, although he was born in the South, I believe in Georgia.
He he as Walker Smith.
He his family, moved to Detroit to black bottom and then moved to New York.
Robinson, as we know, is from the Bronx and but he fought a lot in Detroit in the early part of his career, so he became sort of a HomeTown favorite.
It became his his uh home away from home, so Robinson by the way uh was fighting in a tournament and his name’s Walker Smith, and the guy Ray Robinson who was supposed to fight Robinson, couldn’t get a card for the tournament he was under eight.
So it was the Golden Gloves tournament.
So when the guy didn’t show up, he said I’ll be Ray Robinson and he would.
He did so well that they mentioned him in the newspaper and then he he kept the name and then changed his name to that.
His trainer was degrade Harry Wiley, whose son who was the close friend of mine, Harry Wiley, Jr, passed away recently and his manager with George gainford.
Everyone gave gainford credit for Creative Robinson, but he didn’t.
He was a manager.
It was Henry Wiley who taught him how to fight all those moves he saw Robinson.
Do you know the double left hook? You know double jab left hook off the double Jab.
You know the right to the belly Left To The Head, the the ducking, the moving.
The slipping and sliding the shoulder roll that was all Harry Wiley, we taught Robinson Robinson, was a great student and he learned it and he learned it well and uh.
You know when he turned Pro um after his first couple fights I mean he was beaten early on.
You know, former Champions like fritzy zivic, Henry Armstrong.
It was great and um.
One of the reporters said to Harry.
You got a sweet fighter there.
My friend he is sweet and Harry Wiley said yep, he’s Swedish sugar and hence Sugar, Ray Robinson Bronx bull for for Jake LaMotta wasn’t any mystery.
He was built like a bull.
He had the temperament of a bull and uh.
Once the referee said.
Let’S fight that was his favorite moment in his life.
He’D live for battle, so we come upon this second fight February, 5th 1943.
In Detroit and once again, uh Lamont has got a 15 16 pound weight advantage and you know it it uh.
It was a really good fight and lamada had a specific game plan going in he.
He thought I had Robinson in the previous fight, but I let him get away from me.
You know he started to move and once Robinson moved, it was difficult.
Lamar was good at cutting the ring off, but Robinson was so quick and because he was so much lighter, Rob uh lamada had time trying to stop him.
How do you stop a guy like that? It’S difficult because Robinson’s great at fighting and and boxing technical boxing, but he’s also a tough guy and and you would think, a guy with a 16 pound weight advantage.
It was a hard puncher like lamada, for instance, when I look at lamotta’s ring record.
He had 106 fights, 86 83 wins, and you know many of those were Knockouts and, of course, Robinson had had twice as many 174 wins.
So these guys could fight.
Lamanna was doing his best in the second fight, but he knew he had to adopt a different strategy.
He couldn’t let up.
It was a 10 round fight, but he couldn’t take his foot off the gas pedal.
He literally could not allow Robinson to get away from him, so the picture you saw at the beginning of the show that’s from the two second or third round he dropped Robinson.
You know he hit him a good shot and rather than you know, after hitting him a good shot, some guys will wait and look for the perfect shot.
Lamada gon na do that after he hit him with that, you know Sledgehammer right hand and staggered him.
He hit him with a left hook in the liver and then another Sledgehammer writing in and Lamar Robinson tried to hold, but lamado, who was significantly shorter, was able to work his arms and shoulders free and keep belting him and Robinson went through the ropes.
It was a knockdown Robinson got up immediately.
You know he should have taken more of account, but he got up and and lamada.
You know when the referee looked at him and said you all right.
Yes, do you want to continue yes and the fight went on, but from the time Robinson said? Yes, the second time like that right on top of him, still pounding him, you know lamad is using his shoulders he’s putting his head right here in his throat in his Adam’s Apple, which is an old trick, because when you do that you get the other guy’s Head to move back and then all that Alma has to do with the shorter arms is take a half step backwards and whack him again over and over and over and when Robinson tries to cover up like this lamada is hitting him.
You know he’s hitting him with his arm.
Forearm elbow.
This is a fight.
This isn’t a dance.
You know I mean lamada said jokingly after I fought Sugar, Ray Robinson, so many times it’s a wonder.
I didn’t need diabetes or I didn’t need.
I didn’t need insulin.
It’S a wonder: I didn’t get diabetes, not need diabetes.
My mistakes – oh uh.
He was rough on Robinson but Robinson, didn’t complain.
It’S not like fights today where, where guys are always turning to the ref and complaining now last night, Harrison did hit Tim Zulo and look and Zoo moved back and did what Fighters have always done.
He touched his own cup and he said: hey that was low and and he’s not and Harrison acknowledged it that never happened back then, when you hit a guy low back then the other fighter, just he didn’t like it, but he that’s.
What are you going to do can’t complain to the referee referee doesn’t care, he can’t do anything about it.
The only way to stop a guy from hitting low is to hit him back low, and the perfect example of that was Matthew, Hatton against Canelo Alvarez.
When Matthew hadn’t kept hitting him behind the head, all these rabbit shots and the referee kept warning him.
And finally, after one clinch uh Canelo and I loved it turn Hatton around.
He was behind him and started pounding on his head like a speed bag and then said how do you like it and after that hat and didn’t do it again? That’S the only way to stop the guy from falling referee can’t do that.
It can take points away, but doesn’t mean the guy won’t do it again.
So lamanna are fighting now.
The fight takes place in 1943.
It’S significant because this is in the midst of World War II.
Uh Robinson was in the Army and he was in with uh Joe Lewis Robinson hated.
The Army, the Army back then, was segregated and it was just a uh, absolute hell on Earth for for um African-American servicemen and they got treated like garbage didn’t matter.
If you were Ray Robinson, they would still treated like garbage and challenge you to fight, and one day uh Joe Lewis and Robinson were walking somewhere they’ve been asked to go somewhere to a press conference.
You know to talk to the reporters about life over in Europe, or this was in the states life in the Army.
Excuse me in some lower ranking officer that said to blow to Joel’s.
Hey you and word get over here, get out of that line and Robinson said: that’s Joe Lewis.
That’S the Undisputed heavyweight champion.
I don’t care you stupid, n-word, you ain’t nothing, but an n-word to me.
Get over here and Robinson jumped the guy beat him up, and then you know both of them got arrested and Louis people would call Lewis later on and Uncle Tom.
But that certainly wasn’t true Lewis had a speech impediment, so he was hesitant to speak in public uh, but he had a lot of power out of the ring as well.
So he had a friend in Washington whom he called, who called someone else, and then they had the Secretary of State call the uh uh Commanding General at that camp and say what the hell’s going on.
Why is Joe Lewis being called this? You know he’s the best rep we have in the Army, he’s getting people to join the Army by the hundreds of thousands, including African Americans, him and Ray Robinson.
Why are you doing this and, of course, those officers that call them names and that have been? Were you know, bumped down several strikes and then kicked out of the army as well? They should have been Robinson didn’t want to be in the army.
He thought this isn’t my War.
This is a white person’s War and I shouldn’t be here: I’m getting treated poorly.
I could be in New York making money it’s hard to believe that the Allies won’t win.
If I’m not in the effort, so uh Robinson went, AWOL disappears for a couple weeks tells him when he shows up that he blacked out.
He had Amnesia and they believed him.
Basically, he just said you know I’m not going to do this anymore, and that was it, but because he was the great Ray Robinson he was able to get away with it.
Uh lamada, I think, because of his um temperament, you know that he he was so easily angered and so willing to fight.
He just didn’t want his type in the Army, although he probably would have been a good soldier.
So LaMotta was a guy who, when he trained especially for Robinson lamada, you see guys training today, but lamada would run 10 15 miles a day.
Seven days a week there were no weekends off for Jake LaMotta.
He didn’t look at it that way.
He wasn’t going to leave anything to chance.
He wasn’t gon na.
Let Ray Robinson beat him because he wasn’t in shape.
So when he was told you do a thousand sit-ups, he said.
Ah, that’s nothing! I’Ll do five thousand sit-ups and 5 000 push-ups and five thousand chin UPS.
He wanted to be able, you know to take on a tank.
Lamada wasn’t going to leave anything the chance.
Robinson’S training camps were were a lot more uh lighthearted, but he worked hard.
He he was great at skipping rope.
He was great on the speed bag right on the heavy bag, and you know back then, unlike today, where guys get into spar and they wail on each other back then what they did was they’d work on certain situations.
So all of Robinson’s for the second fight with lamanna hisparent partners, uh, were five, eight, five, nine and they all mimicked, Jake, lamottas, uh style and and what Harry Wiley had him work on was you’re against the ropes.
We’Ll start like this, you put your foot your leg between raised legs and you have your shoulder, pinning them in and then they’d start this wiring and he would say to Ray.
How do we get out of this? What what do you do and why we would get in the ring with them, and it would say when he leans forward like this, you can.
You know you can use your right arm to push his head away or put your arm over and hold them down, and when the referee breaks you, you can move along the other side of the ropes and get free, but when it gets close like that, you Got ta tie him up and you got ta move your head to the side or move it farther back because he’s going to keep doing that to you.
Conversely, in lamata’s Camp you know lamada, it’s not that he disrespected Robinson.
He just thought I can beat him he’s not special.
Like people say he is and and so what he was doing at that time.
He had guys imitating Robinson and he was just looking for new ways.
You know to try to trap him in the corner or try to trap him against the ropes against the ropes during the corner.
When you don’t have your leverage behind you and all you can do, is stand there and take shots.
That was the best thing for a lamada of lamotica trap.
You he could take you out so Robinson is there and at his camp lamotta’s at his camp and he’s thinking, there’s got to be different ways that I can do this and he realized speed.
I can beat him with speed now Robinson was blindingly fast hand, speed and foot speed.
The Motto was quick: there’s a distinct difference between fats and quick, and I’ve spoken about this before fast is if two fighters are facing each other and they both throw punches.
Whoever gets there first is the fastest quick is.
When you see a mistake, your opponent makes and you capitalize on it before you can correct his mistake.
That’S quick and lamado was quit, so lamanna knew when when that fight began, the first thing he does is he he doesn’t walk.
He runs right out at Robinson and Robinson before he could do anything.
It’S just trying to get out of the way you know he’s.
Trying to land his jab, but lamotta’s bobbing up and down he’s moving side to side and Robinson or excuse me, lamanna’s, just touching him.
So, even if lamada, you know, throws the left hand and, and the jab just misses him like this – he’s still going to come back and grab Robinson’s head he’s, still going to hit him to the side and grab his left arm.
So he’s still going to keep grabbing him and when he grabs him he can hit him.
He wants to make it a street for all.
He wants to rough him up for the whole time.
He doesn’t want to get Robinson the room to be eloquent.
He doesn’t want her elegant.
Excuse me not eloquent eloquence.
When you speak, he doesn’t want him to be elegant in the ring.
He doesn’t want him a chance to get into his rhythm, where he can just keep circling lamada and keep making lamata shift and then reset himself continuously and then lamada has the wing punches.
That’S what Robinson wants to do just keep him on the end of the jab, and that was a smart way to fight lamanna at that time, but, as Robinson grew into the wake you know.
People realize that this is one tough son of a and Robinson didn’t hesitate to stand there and slug inside a ring with a guy like lamanna.
Don’T forget, Robinson had trouble with basilio who was five six and basilia.
You know just butchered Robinson, their first fighting Yankee Stadium in 57 because he had him in the corner.
He wouldn’t let Robinson get out.
He was good at that.
Basilia was a master at getting under the other man’s jab and and pounding his body, and this is what Lamar was doing.
La motto was much stronger than basilio.
So LaMotta was you know.
The Sylvia was a Welter who came up.
The middle Rob LaMotta was born in middleweight, so LaMotta is using everything in his power and he’s rushing at him like a linebacker.
What other, quarterback and he’s you know, he’s Robinson’s holding him, but when Robinson tries to hold him lamada pushes him back against the ropes and Robinson’s.
Looking to the referee and LaMont just coming ahead using his head arms, elbows and he’s pounding Robinson to him, this there’s no etiquette here.
Just there’s no rule book here.
This is a fight, we’re fighting for our lives.
Here, I’m fighting to get a chance at the world.
Middleweight title you know you’re fighting to get a chance at the welterweight and or a middleweight title.
I’M I’m not going to give you a chance, I’m not going to fight according to the rules, I’m not going to fight critty.
Just so it looks aesthetically pleasing or to make it easier for you, I’m going to try to kick your ass.
I’M going to do everything I can I’m going to hit you when the Adam’s apple, I’m going to hit you low, I’m going to hit you in the arms I’m going to hit you on the break.
I’M going to I’m going to use my head when you’re clinching I’m going to do everything I can I I don’t want to lose to you you’re not going to get a gift like you did the first time you fought I’m going to beat the hell out Of you and this flight went on, and you know it’s only a 10 round fight and lamada was smart to know that in a 10 round fight, rather than a 15 round fight, you can’t take time off in a 15 round fight.
You can take seconds off here and there he didn’t have that time, because he knew anytime.
He takes time off Sugar Ray’s gon na flash.
Some, you know spectacular combinations he’s going to steal them around.
I can’t do that.
The Mata was in there like, he was digging a trench and while his car was double part, he was just hammering Robinson first round second round third round fourth round, and you can see third round fourth round Robinson’s getting gassed.
I mean he’s in shape, but he’s taken a ferocious beating to the body.
The way to beat a guy like Robinson who depends on mobility and speed, is to Savage his body and lamada kept doing it.
Even you know, so, even when Robinson is clenching, him he’s hitting him to the body.
Even the referee goes like this he’s leaning forward with the left hook to the liver.
He you know, and the referee this thing Jake, you don’t hit on the break and lamada’s like you know, whatever who cares and he just keeps coming forward.
He knows that everyone wants to see this fight.
Robinson’S from Detroit lamotta’s got his own fans there.
No one’s going to disqualify lamada, so he just keeps going forward and pounding Robinson over and over and it’s just this inexorable tidal wave of leather and Robinson is doing its best to move.
But he can’t he’s Young and he’s in shape, but lamanna is beating the life out of him.
He’S pounding his body and the more his sides are getting sores he’s in agony and the more that happens.
His legs just aren’t working his legs, aren’t getting him out of out of Harm’s Way, quick enough, and even when he uses his legs to move and he’ll move to the side.
Lamont is still on him with a right hand.
Lamar is hitting him in the head.
You know on the eye in the eyes on purpose he’s targeting his Adam’s Apple he’s he he, you know he wants to hurt him in the throat he’s pounding his eyes, even in a clinch.
You know when they’re holding like this he’s coming up to get his eyes he’s going after his nose he’s doing everything he can to make it a street battle for, for Robinson, he doesn’t want Robinson to get into Rhythm.
Doesn’T want him to get set, doesn’t want him to get used to throwing those long, Jabs and coming in with the right hands.
He lamanna is fighting a smart fight he’s staying low and by staying it’s hard to punch down so by staying low and moving side to side.
It’S almost impossible to time a guy like that so Robinson’s having a very difficult time getting his jab in there and he’s having a very difficult timelining combinations and every time Robinson throws a jab or a right hand and misses the amount of counters him with a Thud, you know it counts him with the right hand, to the face a left hook to the liver counters him with a a left hook right here, just above the groin.
You know in the solar plexus hits him with the right hand on the side of the neck.
Lamada is just doing everything he can to make this the worst night of Robinson’s life and he’s succeeding.
He’S you know he’s beating the hell out of him and uh people aren’t believing what they’re seeing and Perry Wiley’s not very happy in Sugar, Ray Robinson’s Corner he’s saying: you’re, not fighting him.
The way I’m telling you to fight him and Robinson said I’m doing the best.
I can he’s a lot better than he was last time.
Lamada lamada learned from their last fight Robinson, it’s not that he didn’t learn, but he was so Superior to everyone else.
What more was he going to learn? He’D beaten? He was beating everyone out there lombarded to him with just another fight at that point in time, so he didn’t really think he had to prepare, especially for lamada he did, but he didn’t think this would be a different LaMotta than he fought the first time and It was Jacob realized, there can’t be a one-trick pony.
It can’t be a one note fighter.
I can’t just bull straight ahead because then he could.
You know you grab me or shove me to the side and then I’d have to chase him.
The Mata knew that he had to come in in such a way as to cut off the ring, and by that I mean – and we saw this last night with Kim zoo and Tony Harrison when when Harrison was against the robes, he would be taking five six.
Seven steps in either direction Zoo only took one or two.
He just had to turn and that’s what lamanna was doing.
Lamada cut off the ropes so when your guy’s moving you’re moving diagonally rather than straight and you’re, taking less steps, so you so if your guy’s moving to his left you’re taking one or two steps to get there first, that means that’s cut off for him.
You can’t get to that Avenue and then he’s going to move to Europe to his right and you’re, going to move one or two steps in that direction and he can’t move there and Lamar was brilliant at that, especially on that night and their last fight February 14Th, 1951 to sing Valentine’s Day Massacre.
I think LaMotta just had very little left in the tank because he couldn’t make the wait anymore and he was 175 pounds a month or about a month before the last fight with Robinson and to get down to 160, kill them um.
Looking back on him on his career, he probably would have been better served if he fought his whole career as a light heavyweight.
Even though he’s only five.
Nine problem, of course, is the money was in the middleweight division, much more money in the middleweights than in the light heavyweights.
Middleweights was the glamor division.
Why? Because most people are middleweights at least at that time.
Most people walked around at that weight.
So 175 pound man like heavyweight, would consider be considered to be a big man and lamado was physically stronger than Robinson, as were a lot of guys.
That fought him but Robinson was a tough guy and on this night lamada had his number, and you know this fight takes place in 1943 and lamado wins a 10 round decision, and so two years later they fight again – and you know it wasn’t unusual even back Then, for you know me to fight you on one night and then four weeks later fight you again and then four weeks after that fight you again and then three weeks later fight you again, regardless of who won any of the fights that was common.
If the fans liked it and they saw it – and they had a good time, then they were going to pay more to see it again.
Now, on September 26, 1945 um they fought again and at Kaminsky parking in Chicago LaMotta, weighed 159 Robinson, was closer.
He was 150.
and Robinson had you know in those two years uh since LaMotta beat him last time and grown into his his own body.
Excuse me, so sometimes it takes a fighter a while to do that.
You know guys that are awkward that are bigger.
You know especially gigantic guys, like Dyson Fury, you know it takes a long time for them to get used to their own body and their own side, so Robinson was now more comfortable as as fighting at 150 pounds, because the fight at Welter, he only had to Drop three pounds and he won a close split decision on Kaminsky Park.
Lamotta believed he won the fight.
Most people in the newspapers believe lamado won.
What’S interesting about this fight is um people say well, you know what uh right after he beat him Detroit.
They fought again a week later in New York and lamado on that fight, and this was really they’re getting it confused.
It was this fight in 45 in Chicago, which was very, very close, and the problem with Chicago, of course, is Chicago’s a mob Town.
It was run by the outfit and it was hard for uh the money to get a break in Chicago or anywhere now.
Did the mom fix this fight? We don’t know that we know that the mob fixed most fights in the 40s and 50s.
We know that Robinson wasn’t a mob fighter.
Originally he turned down um Frankie carbo’s offers.
You know you lose to this guy and then you beat him in the rematch and he said no and Robinson could say no, not because he had gangsters behind or black gangsters, because he was the biggest draw in the sport.
So Robinson said to carbo.
You know not to be rude, Mr Cardwell, but if I walk away your money goes down 80 percent and so Robinson, even when he lost they still had to give him his due.
Because you know he’s the money in the sport Robinson.
Wasn’T a well-ledged fighter by the way Robinson did this with lamanna, but basilio really hated them and Carmen told me many times how you know when they were supposed to fight at Yankee Stadium.
He fought him twice, but he did it with a lot of Fighters.
What Robinson would do is you’d be an hour before the fight and it’s being broadcast and Robinson would just say, I’m not going in the ring unless I get 25 more in basilio, look at him saying you’re getting a 75 or you’re getting a 65 35 split.
I’M not giving you up 25 of what I have left.
That’S ridiculous! I’M not fighting for that.
Little well, no fight! Then you got ta signed contract.
Well, we’ll go to court, but I’m not getting in the ring tonight.
And so what would happen? Is uh, basilio’s managers and other managers of other Fighters would give up a portion of their percentage to get Robinson in the ring.
Now it got Robinson, more money but of course, in the end, an antagonized, basilio and lamada a lot of other Fighters, and you don’t want to give a guy more motivation to pass your face in.
So this was quite common.
So in the early to mid 50s Robinson said, he’s had enough of boxing, he leaves he doesn’t want any more pressure from the mob he’s tired of it.
He goes in to Showbiz it’s already in show business, because boxing is entertainment.
Pretty comes goes to nightclubs, becomes a dancer, a singer and he’s all right, not great, but he’s all right and after about three years of this he has a meeting because he owned all of Harlem.
He had his restaurant.
She was raids, he had the great big Cadillac he’d go to Europe and travel and he’d have his manicurist with him.
He he’d have his hair stylist with him.
You know his masseuse.
He had a at the bat at that time.
Then they called a a dwarf that he carried with him.
A little person didn’t carry with him.
I mean Gary then took with him, and this was the way it was phrased in the paper back then so he was sort of a dilettante.
But after three years out of the ring he goes to meet with his business manager, who tells him you’re broke, and you owe hundreds of thousands to IRS.
How did that happen? Well, all these 20 businesses sugary Robinson’s, hair, styling, sugary, Robinson’s grocery store Sugar, Ray Robinson’s, uh manicure, pedicure, uh, Boutique Sugar, Ray Robinson’s clothing, store, sugary Robinson shoe, store Sugar, Ray Robinson’s television set store.
All of these places are managed by who his relatives and close friends who rip him off so now he’s got nothing so he’s got to close.
It all sell the businesses, it’s not enough to pay off the taxes.
It’S got to come back to boxing and now he’s got to make a deal with James Lawrence.
He runs the IBC international boxing club and that’s run by Frankie Carver.
The monster who took over Oni Madden took over from only Madden when Madden went into Exile in Arkansas he became the Godfather of Arkansas, so Carver was in front control of boxing then, and to make a deal with Norris means you had to make a deal with.
Carbo and fight the fights Carver wanted.
There is no evidence as far as I can see, or that I’ve heard from anyone that Robinson ever went in the tank for the mob.
Never through a fight he came back.
He lost his first fight back with Ralph Tiger Jones and he he comes back and he’s winning fights.
Eventually he beats Carl Bobo Olson for the title.
I think in two two or three rounds knocks him out, but before that he had the great uh February.
14.
1951 fight where he won the title from from Jake LaMotta.
Now I’m Mike basilio um the silly what didn’t particularly like Robinson, but when they had a knight in 65 at Madison Square Garden, to honor him.
They had former opponents in the ring and basilio was one of them and there were other Fighters there.
Lamotta wasn’t invited, although he lived less than two blocks from Madison Square Garden and the reason the model wasn’t invited was because he admitted to throwing a fight in front of the Catholic committee invested, getting um organized crimes, infiltration of boxing.
Now that committee, that Senate subcommittee still exists today, they still go after and look into fights today that they believe were had organized crime, influence and there’s quite a few.
So what had happened with Jake LaMotta was in order to get a fight for the world title.
You had to make a deal of carbo because carbo said you’re, not I don’t care who you’d be you’re, not getting a shot.
Unless you go through me, so he agreed to lose two cardboard’s fighter.
Blackjack Billy, Fox and blackjack Billy Fox was really a light heavyweight.
Couldn’T fight uh labata assured the commission for the fight? No, I don’t lose anyone.
I don’t go into the tank for anyone.
He loses in four rounds.
It was obviously a fix Robinson said he broke.
He had heard his uh, I think rotator cuff.
It’S not our spleen, excuse me, they shouldn’t believed them, and the commission believed them because it wasn’t the final ruler.
The final ruler was the mafia, with Frankie Garbo and now he said believe him, and so he gets his license back and he keeps fighting even though he went into the tank for the mob and the mob made a fortune off of him.
He still had to wait almost three years: nine fights and ended up paying another 30 Grand in cold cash to carbo before he gets a chance to beat Marcel Sudan.
That’S what the mob did to him now.
What’S sad here is when Robinson dies in 89.
He’S got maybe a half a million to his name when lamada dies um in 217 at the age of 95.
, lamanna had upwards of 10 to 15 million dollars.
He was very smart with the money he had.
They show him as a comedian, and you know and Raging Bull a lot of Raging.
Bull wasn’t true, although Jake said to me one time as mean as I was in that movie, I was a lot meaner in real life, so he had invested in condos and land in Florida and he made a lot of money off of it.
So he ended up in financially good shape and, although he would repeat stories when he got older, you could sit and have a conversation um with him, and I did – and you know he was an interesting guy.
I mean when I saw him in 209 to 10.
You know lamada was, I guess, 88, he had his young wife, that was in her 40s and and a kid he had like a seven or eight year old kid.
Now he had a daughter and two sons.
One son died of cancer.
The other son died in that plane crash over Gander Newfoundland and he said to me he thought the death of his two sons was punishment to him from God.
By the way he lived his life.
He said: that’s why a lot of times when he I said to him that sounds a bit far-fetched, but I understand what you’re saying you don’t want to disagree.
If the guy he’s obviously he’s still in pain – and he said a lot of times – you’d see him on the ropes in a fight and he’d.
Let a guy hit him and he said he did that because he thought he deserved the punishment for the way he lived his life.
That’S a bit of a skewed view.
Boxers can be like that at times.
Why do athletes can’t? But you know he he was the middleweight champion of the world and who am I to upset him because even at the age of 88 or 87 and I’m you know 49, I’m not going to take him up.
I it’s still Jake LaMotta, so he had wonderful stories um to tell – and I think I’ve mentioned this before he said in the movie when lamada or when Robinson beats him the last time and he goes over to him and he says he didn’t knock me down Right, it doesn’t count um, he said to me.
I never said that because he knocked he shredded my lips and knocked a lot of my teeth out broke my nose and he said I had to be carried to my corner.
I couldn’t catch my breath, I didn’t say a damn thing to him, not for many years and I said: do you hate him and he said no, I I don’t hate Ray.
I mean there were times.
I didn’t like some of the things he pulled, but I let it go.
You know raise a person, I’m a person, uh no reason for me to go after him or say bad things.
He was a great fighter and we became good friends um and you would think that’s odd, because lamado when he was young, didn’t look at anyone as his friend except it’s brother.
Joey, didn’t trust anyone, but these men made history together and when people look at their fights most of the time, they just remember the fight from February 14th 1951, but they had fights.
You know before that and of the six fights they had lamada won one officially.
I think you can give him credit for the Chicago one, which is a split decision, and I think the one before that uh in New York, which was given to Ray that one was very close.
I mean that could have gone either way.
So I I think, looking at it is 5-1 for Ray Robinson, wasn’t really correct.
Uh I mean that’s how it officially is, but we know that sometimes the official’s going, especially back in the 40s and 50s, was uh easily skewed uh.
Both of them were tremendous, draws.
Um, the fake that lamala won, I mean lamanna, was immensely proud and you have to give Robin some credit because Robinson didn’t make any bones about it.
He didn’t complain, he didn’t say I got a rod decision, he hit me illegally or he held me or he did this.
He said I lost to the better man.
The better man won tonight and all credit to him got to give him his due and that’s what boxing is all about.
This is why, last night, I was upset watching uh, the zoo, Harrison fight and, after the fight Tim Zoo, cursing repeatedly.
What’S my MF name? What’S my, they didn’t do that back then guys, like Robinson and lamada Joe Lewis, never cursed when he was interviewed, neither the George Foreman or Ali or Joe Frazier.
So there’s no need for that in sport of boxing.
If you get a chance watch, Robinson and Lamar watch everything you can uh on them, the 13th, the 13th round knockdown or stoppage.
Some 51 is a great fight, because lamado was in the fight for a long time and then he just ran out of steam.
Making the way killed him and, as I said, he was in middleweight, because there was more money at middleweight but body wise for him.
It would have been smarter to be at light heavyweight, but he didn’t want to take the 55-60 pay cut and what’s amazing, about lamanna courses, he ended up with all that money, even though the mob had stolen all this money.
But La model was not a predictable person, so the mob sort of was leery of him.
They controlled him in his fights, but you know they never knew.
If he was, I mean La model was in nightclubs or mob, guys would make passes at his wife and he would beat the hell out of them, and you know when these mob guys would complain to the superiors you know you got to do something about them.
They said they just don’t antagonize him.
This guy’s a nut case stay away from me and when lamada testified in front of the Opera commission, and when I spoke them, he said I had no fear of them.
I had a tremendous hatred of them like that.
Doesn’T come from being brave? I was just too stupid to know how and how much danger I was, and he said, but then again being that naive is probably a good thing, because if I wasn’t, I wouldn’t have done what I did a lot of the time.
He said I, you know, I told them off in front of their peers and I beat up a lot of those guys and there was never any blowback and he said that was just pure luck and uh.
I was lucky enough to to meet him on many occasions here in Toronto and in New York, uh uh.
I never had a chance to meet uh Robinson Robinson had a bad Dimension near the end of his life and he did have money problems, but uh um.
Angela Dundee’s good friend Melvin, dick Melvin was a man who owns the second or third largest Wine and Spirits company in the Southern United States, so he’s very well off.
He helped Ray Robinson.
In fact, Ray Robinson went to his bar mitzvah.
If you believe it, I mean this is a story.
He told an Angela’s funeral Angel introduced into Ray and Ray went to his bar mitzvah.
Imagine that Sugar Ray Robinson driving you to the apartment enter your prom in his pink Cadillac and he was the escort.
You know he acted like a butler or whatever, and they were good friends throughout their whole life because uh this was Mel’s hero and when Angelo brought him to stillman’s gym in New York, Mel would go in every day and just stare at Sugar Ray Robinson.
He didn’t care about the other Fighters, he didn’t care and Robinson notices, this white kid looking at him for like three weeks and he turns a kid every day you come in here.
What’S your problem, why are you doing this? Why are you staring at me because I love you and you’re my hero and Robinson just had tears coming down his face, I mean you know being born in the South moving to Detroit New York.
You know what segregation and Prejudice was the kids.
Didn’T this kid? Didn’T have it.
This was a young Jewish kid who just idolized him and they became good friends.
So after his bar mitzvah, this is a great story.
He’S got his bar mitzvah soon on and they go back to stillman’s, gym and Robinson hasn’t telling everyone.
I just said my apartment, so I did and Angelo Dundee who was fluent in Yiddish by the way was congratulating him and all the other guys were congratulating him and all the fighters, and he said, go tell Joe Joe Lewis and Joe Lewis was taking a shower And he literally opens up the shower curtain and there’s Joe Lewis completely naked showering.
He says Joe, I just had my bar mitzvah and, and he said good for you – son muscle, tough closed up close the shower curtain.
Please, and of course this was explained to me it’s hard to say this – I have to clean this up.
Joe Lewis was um, I don’t even know if you get a Milton bro reference, Joe Lewis friend of mine, a comedian Kenny Robinson um parents on the jazz club in Winnipeg, and he has black and white photographs that Joe Lewis coming up and when Joe would visit.
Um he would ask for all these different women of the evening to escort him, but their prices would go up six seven fold because they said Joe Lewis was too much man for one woman.
So when this kid walks in and opens the curtain and everyone’s standing out there, including themselves kind of a funny moment, anyways, that’s way off topic uh, it was Melvin dick who helped look after Ray Robinson, Ray Robinson.
I had dementia and he was with him a lot of the time, so Ray Robinson had a soft Landing.
It’S not like by many of the people that he knew or fought against, but certainly has to be considered the greatest fighter where people have lived pound per pound.
If you ask me, if you asked Angela Dundee my mentor, he’d say Willie Pep lamado rates up there lamada did more with what he had than any other fighter.
I ever saw he had skill and he had toughness and he had no fear and he didn’t not have any fear because he wasn’t bright, you can’t have fear, fear doesn’t enter into it at that level.
A lot of times you’ll see critics that I see that guy was afraid of that guy.
He doesn’t enter into it at the elite level of pro boxing fear only enters into it.
When you hurt your opponent, and you fear that you may have fatally injured but being scared of someone unless you’re fighting a listener format, it just didn’t enter into the OR Lewis it didn’t enter into it, lamada and Robinson are are inextricably linked together throughout the annals Of boxing as well, they should be people talk about the great fights three fights of Tony Zell and Rocky Graziano, Arturo Gotti and and Mickey Ward.
Imagine six fights like that between these two, where there was very little give and take, except for the last fight.
Every fight was close and went down the last couple seconds of the last round.
These were two of the all-time greatest Fighters and middleweight champions ever to have lived.
I’M Lou Eisen, that’s Ring talk.
I hope you had a good time.
See you again.
Next week, please visit my sub stack luizen.
substack.
com Once Upon a Time in the prize Wing prize ring.
This week I started the first of a four or five part series on the history of the mob and boxing and I’m sure you’ll enjoy that see you again next week.
At the same time, bye bye, thank you.
Transcribed
Foreign boxing writer and historian – and this is ring – talk – and I just want to thank our producer – the lovely Eric Boyce and he is Lovely by the way uh, because the picture he showed at the beginning is from that fight.
That was from the LaMotta Robinson fight, and that was my mistake.
I said first fight, it’s the second fight, but you see Robinson going through the Roadster Robinson was very young at that point, and also this is unbelievable.
So you have this fight and lamada enters the ring at 160 and a half Robinson enters the ring on that day at 144.
Although um Chris Dundee, the promoter Angelo’s brother, said he actually invented the ring at 141 and a half and and um on uh.
On that particular day, February, 5th 1943, in Detroit at the Olympia, and they had a fight previously on on October, 2nd 1942, in which uh Robinson won that fight by unanimous decision.
What’S interesting about um these fight, if you look at the you know, early careers of Ray Robinson and lamada, you know 1940s in the 50s you’ll see each of them fighting four five six times a month.
That’S what was done, then top guys today will fight twice a year.
Last night, Tony Harrison hadn’t fought in a year and a half and and um Tim Zoo, hadn’t fought in a year, so it was quite common back.
Then excuse me for fighters to not.
You know to fight four five six times a month, because the money wasn’t as good as it is.
Today you had to fight more often, and you know you needed to make a living, and it was the best way to stay in shape, plus these were hungry.
Guys and they wanted to get to the top of the ladder in their respective weight divisions Robinson because of his height 511.
You know it’s a welterweight, but we knew he would go up.
People knew he’d go up the middleweight, he won the Welterweight Title against Tommy Bell, but it only stayed in the division, a short time and moved up to middleweight and he fought middleweight.
While he was a welterweight and he could do it because he had the power and more importantly, he had the skills and the speed.
However, uh at the time, I think it was the 30th fight uh when the second time they fought Sugar Ray Robinson was 40-0 and I think lamada had already had 36 37 fights and lost a couple, one sugary and Robinson.
Anyone who thinks lamada had never faced.
Anyone like lamanna The Motto wasn’t like any fighter you’ve seen today.
People compare him to Mike Tyson to him that doesn’t do him Justice.
Do you know when you see a fight begin and the fighters – and this is quite common Fighters – come out and they’re probing for weaknesses, they’re? Looking for you to make the other fight to make an error, excuse me make a mistake and then they want to take advantage of it, which is one reason why, when I was in Cinderella, Man Ron Howard said he didn’t like the Rocky movies, because the Rocky Movies were throwing these guys were, throwing thousands of punches around and around and except for Matthew, sod, Mohammed late, heavyweight, title fight or other fights or smaller ways that rarely happens Fighters are probing.
It’S like a chess match, they’re looking for a mistake, and then they capitalize jump on you like a tiger on a wounded animal.
So what happens in this fight in their first fight? You know the bell rings and Robinson comes out to fight to Robinson on First and he’s expecting.
You know lamada to come out.
You know touch gloves and have her feeling out around lamada rushes him like a linebacker and Bulls him to the ropes and just starts pounding its body and pounding his head and in his corner he had Al silvani, who appeared in Rocky in a lot of movies.
Al savanty became an actor, but he was a great Corner.
Man and Lamar is also trained by his brother Joey and he’s just he’s bullying him up against the ropes to you know: that’s why they call them the Bronx bull, the Raging Bull.
He just got up there into the guy’s face.
He knew lamada was not um a pure Slugger, as people thought people thought he was just a walk-in.
Slugger guy would take a lot of shots to the head just to get one of his own ends.
That wasn’t true, lamada lived to be 95 and he was clear-headed on the day.
He died, never suffered from pugilistic and dementia, so lamada was smart, he’s 5’8 Robinson’s five eleven, I’m five nine and I met Jake a lot of the times and I don’t know if he was five.
Eight Angelo told me Dundee told me he was probably five six, but he said five eight anyways he knew uh like, and I I never understood this.
Some Fighters gave it some dope last night watching Tony Harrison and Tim Zoo, even though it’s a small ring, I’m thinking that Tony Harry about Tony Harrison.
If you keep moving and using your lateral movement, you’ll keep forcing Tim Zoo to reset himself.
You won’t let him get leverage on the shots.
That’S the way to fight a guy he’s a pressure fighter, but he didn’t do that.
He stood in front of zoo and and it’s a terrible beating, so lamanna knew going ahead against Robinson.
It’S a taller man for longer reach, and what does a guy like that need to be successful? He needs room Robinson needed room to stand back and get his long arms going and to use his lateral movement.
So lamada knew that he could.
He had to get under Robinson’s jab, like basilio, did years later and start hammering his body and and what he was told to do by Al Stefani and and and and uh Joey his brother, who he loved, unlike in the movie, they never had a falling out.
They were close throughout their whole life.
He got in close with with uh Sugar Ray Robinson and his head on his chest, but he put his left leg between Robinson’s legs, so when you’re doing that, you’re cutting Robinson’s balance off meaning, even when he’s against the ropes.
Like this, he can get shots off, but they’re arm shots.
He can’t get his full weight behind him and he can’t move to either side and when he tries to move Robinson, can or lamada comes forward of the shoulder and he’s pounding him.
But you got to give Robin some credit.
I mean Robinson was a tough son of a he took all those shots from lamata worked his way off the ropes, and it was a very close fight.
They gave it to Robinson by unanimous decision and lamada debated that for the rest of his life.
He thought I beat him, I mean look at who would you rather be? That’S that that’s the criteria? Look at us after the fight, I’m unmarked, which is unusual, he’s beaten up you’re gon na tell me that I lost that fight.
I mean Jake had a 16 18 pound weight advantage, so he loses that fight and he’s angry.
Now I mean Jacob’s angry at the world.
It’S a boxer, they say you can’t fight angry.
You make mistakes, Jake, fun, angry Jake! So did Duran Jake fought with a giant chip on his shoulder and he took it out and everyone he ever faced.
So they have their second fight of the six they had, and this was truly a great fight it took place in Detroit now.
People would think that Robinson would be the favorite, because, although he was born in the South, I believe in Georgia.
He he as Walker Smith.
He his family, moved to Detroit to black bottom and then moved to New York.
Robinson, as we know, is from the Bronx and but he fought a lot in Detroit in the early part of his career, so he became sort of a HomeTown favorite.
It became his his uh home away from home, so Robinson by the way uh was fighting in a tournament and his name’s Walker Smith, and the guy Ray Robinson who was supposed to fight Robinson, couldn’t get a card for the tournament he was under eight.
So it was the Golden Gloves tournament.
So when the guy didn’t show up, he said I’ll be Ray Robinson and he would.
He did so well that they mentioned him in the newspaper and then he he kept the name and then changed his name to that.
His trainer was degrade Harry Wiley, whose son who was the close friend of mine, Harry Wiley, Jr, passed away recently and his manager with George gainford.
Everyone gave gainford credit for Creative Robinson, but he didn’t.
He was a manager.
It was Henry Wiley who taught him how to fight all those moves he saw Robinson.
Do you know the double left hook? You know double jab left hook off the double Jab.
You know the right to the belly Left To The Head, the the ducking, the moving.
The slipping and sliding the shoulder roll that was all Harry Wiley, we taught Robinson Robinson, was a great student and he learned it and he learned it well and uh.
You know when he turned Pro um after his first couple fights I mean he was beaten early on.
You know, former Champions like fritzy zivic, Henry Armstrong.
It was great and um.
One of the reporters said to Harry.
You got a sweet fighter there.
My friend he is sweet and Harry Wiley said yep, he’s Swedish sugar and hence Sugar, Ray Robinson Bronx bull for for Jake LaMotta wasn’t any mystery.
He was built like a bull.
He had the temperament of a bull and uh.
Once the referee said.
Let’S fight that was his favorite moment in his life.
He’D live for battle, so we come upon this second fight February, 5th 1943.
In Detroit and once again, uh Lamont has got a 15 16 pound weight advantage and you know it it uh.
It was a really good fight and lamada had a specific game plan going in he.
He thought I had Robinson in the previous fight, but I let him get away from me.
You know he started to move and once Robinson moved, it was difficult.
Lamar was good at cutting the ring off, but Robinson was so quick and because he was so much lighter, Rob uh lamada had time trying to stop him.
How do you stop a guy like that? It’S difficult because Robinson’s great at fighting and and boxing technical boxing, but he’s also a tough guy and and you would think, a guy with a 16 pound weight advantage.
It was a hard puncher like lamada, for instance, when I look at lamotta’s ring record.
He had 106 fights, 86 83 wins, and you know many of those were Knockouts and, of course, Robinson had had twice as many 174 wins.
So these guys could fight.
Lamanna was doing his best in the second fight, but he knew he had to adopt a different strategy.
He couldn’t let up.
It was a 10 round fight, but he couldn’t take his foot off the gas pedal.
He literally could not allow Robinson to get away from him, so the picture you saw at the beginning of the show that’s from the two second or third round he dropped Robinson.
You know he hit him a good shot and rather than you know, after hitting him a good shot, some guys will wait and look for the perfect shot.
Lamada gon na do that after he hit him with that, you know Sledgehammer right hand and staggered him.
He hit him with a left hook in the liver and then another Sledgehammer writing in and Lamar Robinson tried to hold, but lamado, who was significantly shorter, was able to work his arms and shoulders free and keep belting him and Robinson went through the ropes.
It was a knockdown Robinson got up immediately.
You know he should have taken more of account, but he got up and and lamada.
You know when the referee looked at him and said you all right.
Yes, do you want to continue yes and the fight went on, but from the time Robinson said? Yes, the second time like that right on top of him, still pounding him, you know lamad is using his shoulders he’s putting his head right here in his throat in his Adam’s Apple, which is an old trick, because when you do that you get the other guy’s Head to move back and then all that Alma has to do with the shorter arms is take a half step backwards and whack him again over and over and over and when Robinson tries to cover up like this lamada is hitting him.
You know he’s hitting him with his arm.
Forearm elbow.
This is a fight.
This isn’t a dance.
You know I mean lamada said jokingly after I fought Sugar, Ray Robinson, so many times it’s a wonder.
I didn’t need diabetes or I didn’t need.
I didn’t need insulin.
It’S a wonder: I didn’t get diabetes, not need diabetes.
My mistakes – oh uh.
He was rough on Robinson but Robinson, didn’t complain.
It’S not like fights today where, where guys are always turning to the ref and complaining now last night, Harrison did hit Tim Zulo and look and Zoo moved back and did what Fighters have always done.
He touched his own cup and he said: hey that was low and and he’s not and Harrison acknowledged it that never happened back then, when you hit a guy low back then the other fighter, just he didn’t like it, but he that’s.
What are you going to do can’t complain to the referee referee doesn’t care, he can’t do anything about it.
The only way to stop a guy from hitting low is to hit him back low, and the perfect example of that was Matthew, Hatton against Canelo Alvarez.
When Matthew hadn’t kept hitting him behind the head, all these rabbit shots and the referee kept warning him.
And finally, after one clinch uh Canelo and I loved it turn Hatton around.
He was behind him and started pounding on his head like a speed bag and then said how do you like it and after that hat and didn’t do it again? That’S the only way to stop the guy from falling referee can’t do that.
It can take points away, but doesn’t mean the guy won’t do it again.
So lamanna are fighting now.
The fight takes place in 1943.
It’S significant because this is in the midst of World War II.
Uh Robinson was in the Army and he was in with uh Joe Lewis Robinson hated.
The Army, the Army back then, was segregated and it was just a uh, absolute hell on Earth for for um African-American servicemen and they got treated like garbage didn’t matter.
If you were Ray Robinson, they would still treated like garbage and challenge you to fight, and one day uh Joe Lewis and Robinson were walking somewhere they’ve been asked to go somewhere to a press conference.
You know to talk to the reporters about life over in Europe, or this was in the states life in the Army.
Excuse me in some lower ranking officer that said to blow to Joel’s.
Hey you and word get over here, get out of that line and Robinson said: that’s Joe Lewis.
That’S the Undisputed heavyweight champion.
I don’t care you stupid, n-word, you ain’t nothing, but an n-word to me.
Get over here and Robinson jumped the guy beat him up, and then you know both of them got arrested and Louis people would call Lewis later on and Uncle Tom.
But that certainly wasn’t true Lewis had a speech impediment, so he was hesitant to speak in public uh, but he had a lot of power out of the ring as well.
So he had a friend in Washington whom he called, who called someone else, and then they had the Secretary of State call the uh uh Commanding General at that camp and say what the hell’s going on.
Why is Joe Lewis being called this? You know he’s the best rep we have in the Army, he’s getting people to join the Army by the hundreds of thousands, including African Americans, him and Ray Robinson.
Why are you doing this and, of course, those officers that call them names and that have been? Were you know, bumped down several strikes and then kicked out of the army as well? They should have been Robinson didn’t want to be in the army.
He thought this isn’t my War.
This is a white person’s War and I shouldn’t be here: I’m getting treated poorly.
I could be in New York making money it’s hard to believe that the Allies won’t win.
If I’m not in the effort, so uh Robinson went, AWOL disappears for a couple weeks tells him when he shows up that he blacked out.
He had Amnesia and they believed him.
Basically, he just said you know I’m not going to do this anymore, and that was it, but because he was the great Ray Robinson he was able to get away with it.
Uh lamada, I think, because of his um temperament, you know that he he was so easily angered and so willing to fight.
He just didn’t want his type in the Army, although he probably would have been a good soldier.
So LaMotta was a guy who, when he trained especially for Robinson lamada, you see guys training today, but lamada would run 10 15 miles a day.
Seven days a week there were no weekends off for Jake LaMotta.
He didn’t look at it that way.
He wasn’t going to leave anything to chance.
He wasn’t gon na.
Let Ray Robinson beat him because he wasn’t in shape.
So when he was told you do a thousand sit-ups, he said.
Ah, that’s nothing! I’Ll do five thousand sit-ups and 5 000 push-ups and five thousand chin UPS.
He wanted to be able, you know to take on a tank.
Lamada wasn’t going to leave anything the chance.
Robinson’S training camps were were a lot more uh lighthearted, but he worked hard.
He he was great at skipping rope.
He was great on the speed bag right on the heavy bag, and you know back then, unlike today, where guys get into spar and they wail on each other back then what they did was they’d work on certain situations.
So all of Robinson’s for the second fight with lamanna hisparent partners, uh, were five, eight, five, nine and they all mimicked, Jake, lamottas, uh style and and what Harry Wiley had him work on was you’re against the ropes.
We’Ll start like this, you put your foot your leg between raised legs and you have your shoulder, pinning them in and then they’d start this wiring and he would say to Ray.
How do we get out of this? What what do you do and why we would get in the ring with them, and it would say when he leans forward like this, you can.
You know you can use your right arm to push his head away or put your arm over and hold them down, and when the referee breaks you, you can move along the other side of the ropes and get free, but when it gets close like that, you Got ta tie him up and you got ta move your head to the side or move it farther back because he’s going to keep doing that to you.
Conversely, in lamata’s Camp you know lamada, it’s not that he disrespected Robinson.
He just thought I can beat him he’s not special.
Like people say he is and and so what he was doing at that time.
He had guys imitating Robinson and he was just looking for new ways.
You know to try to trap him in the corner or try to trap him against the ropes against the ropes during the corner.
When you don’t have your leverage behind you and all you can do, is stand there and take shots.
That was the best thing for a lamada of lamotica trap.
You he could take you out so Robinson is there and at his camp lamotta’s at his camp and he’s thinking, there’s got to be different ways that I can do this and he realized speed.
I can beat him with speed now Robinson was blindingly fast hand, speed and foot speed.
The Motto was quick: there’s a distinct difference between fats and quick, and I’ve spoken about this before fast is if two fighters are facing each other and they both throw punches.
Whoever gets there first is the fastest quick is.
When you see a mistake, your opponent makes and you capitalize on it before you can correct his mistake.
That’S quick and lamado was quit, so lamanna knew when when that fight began, the first thing he does is he he doesn’t walk.
He runs right out at Robinson and Robinson before he could do anything.
It’S just trying to get out of the way you know he’s.
Trying to land his jab, but lamotta’s bobbing up and down he’s moving side to side and Robinson or excuse me, lamanna’s, just touching him.
So, even if lamada, you know, throws the left hand and, and the jab just misses him like this – he’s still going to come back and grab Robinson’s head he’s, still going to hit him to the side and grab his left arm.
So he’s still going to keep grabbing him and when he grabs him he can hit him.
He wants to make it a street for all.
He wants to rough him up for the whole time.
He doesn’t want to get Robinson the room to be eloquent.
He doesn’t want her elegant.
Excuse me not eloquent eloquence.
When you speak, he doesn’t want him to be elegant in the ring.
He doesn’t want him a chance to get into his rhythm, where he can just keep circling lamada and keep making lamata shift and then reset himself continuously and then lamada has the wing punches.
That’S what Robinson wants to do just keep him on the end of the jab, and that was a smart way to fight lamanna at that time, but, as Robinson grew into the wake you know.
People realize that this is one tough son of a and Robinson didn’t hesitate to stand there and slug inside a ring with a guy like lamanna.
Don’T forget, Robinson had trouble with basilio who was five six and basilia.
You know just butchered Robinson, their first fighting Yankee Stadium in 57 because he had him in the corner.
He wouldn’t let Robinson get out.
He was good at that.
Basilia was a master at getting under the other man’s jab and and pounding his body, and this is what Lamar was doing.
La motto was much stronger than basilio.
So LaMotta was you know.
The Sylvia was a Welter who came up.
The middle Rob LaMotta was born in middleweight, so LaMotta is using everything in his power and he’s rushing at him like a linebacker.
What other, quarterback and he’s you know, he’s Robinson’s holding him, but when Robinson tries to hold him lamada pushes him back against the ropes and Robinson’s.
Looking to the referee and LaMont just coming ahead using his head arms, elbows and he’s pounding Robinson to him, this there’s no etiquette here.
Just there’s no rule book here.
This is a fight, we’re fighting for our lives.
Here, I’m fighting to get a chance at the world.
Middleweight title you know you’re fighting to get a chance at the welterweight and or a middleweight title.
I’M I’m not going to give you a chance, I’m not going to fight according to the rules, I’m not going to fight critty.
Just so it looks aesthetically pleasing or to make it easier for you, I’m going to try to kick your ass.
I’M going to do everything I can I’m going to hit you when the Adam’s apple, I’m going to hit you low, I’m going to hit you in the arms I’m going to hit you on the break.
I’M going to I’m going to use my head when you’re clinching I’m going to do everything I can I I don’t want to lose to you you’re not going to get a gift like you did the first time you fought I’m going to beat the hell out Of you and this flight went on, and you know it’s only a 10 round fight and lamada was smart to know that in a 10 round fight, rather than a 15 round fight, you can’t take time off in a 15 round fight.
You can take seconds off here and there he didn’t have that time, because he knew anytime.
He takes time off Sugar Ray’s gon na flash.
Some, you know spectacular combinations he’s going to steal them around.
I can’t do that.
The Mata was in there like, he was digging a trench and while his car was double part, he was just hammering Robinson first round second round third round fourth round, and you can see third round fourth round Robinson’s getting gassed.
I mean he’s in shape, but he’s taken a ferocious beating to the body.
The way to beat a guy like Robinson who depends on mobility and speed, is to Savage his body and lamada kept doing it.
Even you know, so, even when Robinson is clenching, him he’s hitting him to the body.
Even the referee goes like this he’s leaning forward with the left hook to the liver.
He you know, and the referee this thing Jake, you don’t hit on the break and lamada’s like you know, whatever who cares and he just keeps coming forward.
He knows that everyone wants to see this fight.
Robinson’S from Detroit lamotta’s got his own fans there.
No one’s going to disqualify lamada, so he just keeps going forward and pounding Robinson over and over and it’s just this inexorable tidal wave of leather and Robinson is doing its best to move.
But he can’t he’s Young and he’s in shape, but lamanna is beating the life out of him.
He’S pounding his body and the more his sides are getting sores he’s in agony and the more that happens.
His legs just aren’t working his legs, aren’t getting him out of out of Harm’s Way, quick enough, and even when he uses his legs to move and he’ll move to the side.
Lamont is still on him with a right hand.
Lamar is hitting him in the head.
You know on the eye in the eyes on purpose he’s targeting his Adam’s Apple he’s he he, you know he wants to hurt him in the throat he’s pounding his eyes, even in a clinch.
You know when they’re holding like this he’s coming up to get his eyes he’s going after his nose he’s doing everything he can to make it a street battle for, for Robinson, he doesn’t want Robinson to get into Rhythm.
Doesn’T want him to get set, doesn’t want him to get used to throwing those long, Jabs and coming in with the right hands.
He lamanna is fighting a smart fight he’s staying low and by staying it’s hard to punch down so by staying low and moving side to side.
It’S almost impossible to time a guy like that so Robinson’s having a very difficult time getting his jab in there and he’s having a very difficult timelining combinations and every time Robinson throws a jab or a right hand and misses the amount of counters him with a Thud, you know it counts him with the right hand, to the face a left hook to the liver counters him with a a left hook right here, just above the groin.
You know in the solar plexus hits him with the right hand on the side of the neck.
Lamada is just doing everything he can to make this the worst night of Robinson’s life and he’s succeeding.
He’S you know he’s beating the hell out of him and uh people aren’t believing what they’re seeing and Perry Wiley’s not very happy in Sugar, Ray Robinson’s Corner he’s saying: you’re, not fighting him.
The way I’m telling you to fight him and Robinson said I’m doing the best.
I can he’s a lot better than he was last time.
Lamada lamada learned from their last fight Robinson, it’s not that he didn’t learn, but he was so Superior to everyone else.
What more was he going to learn? He’D beaten? He was beating everyone out there lombarded to him with just another fight at that point in time, so he didn’t really think he had to prepare, especially for lamada he did, but he didn’t think this would be a different LaMotta than he fought the first time and It was Jacob realized, there can’t be a one-trick pony.
It can’t be a one note fighter.
I can’t just bull straight ahead because then he could.
You know you grab me or shove me to the side and then I’d have to chase him.
The Mata knew that he had to come in in such a way as to cut off the ring, and by that I mean – and we saw this last night with Kim zoo and Tony Harrison when when Harrison was against the robes, he would be taking five six.
Seven steps in either direction Zoo only took one or two.
He just had to turn and that’s what lamanna was doing.
Lamada cut off the ropes so when your guy’s moving you’re moving diagonally rather than straight and you’re, taking less steps, so you so if your guy’s moving to his left you’re taking one or two steps to get there first, that means that’s cut off for him.
You can’t get to that Avenue and then he’s going to move to Europe to his right and you’re, going to move one or two steps in that direction and he can’t move there and Lamar was brilliant at that, especially on that night and their last fight February 14Th, 1951 to sing Valentine’s Day Massacre.
I think LaMotta just had very little left in the tank because he couldn’t make the wait anymore and he was 175 pounds a month or about a month before the last fight with Robinson and to get down to 160, kill them um.
Looking back on him on his career, he probably would have been better served if he fought his whole career as a light heavyweight.
Even though he’s only five.
Nine problem, of course, is the money was in the middleweight division, much more money in the middleweights than in the light heavyweights.
Middleweights was the glamor division.
Why? Because most people are middleweights at least at that time.
Most people walked around at that weight.
So 175 pound man like heavyweight, would consider be considered to be a big man and lamado was physically stronger than Robinson, as were a lot of guys.
That fought him but Robinson was a tough guy and on this night lamada had his number, and you know this fight takes place in 1943 and lamado wins a 10 round decision, and so two years later they fight again – and you know it wasn’t unusual even back Then, for you know me to fight you on one night and then four weeks later fight you again and then four weeks after that fight you again and then three weeks later fight you again, regardless of who won any of the fights that was common.
If the fans liked it and they saw it – and they had a good time, then they were going to pay more to see it again.
Now, on September 26, 1945 um they fought again and at Kaminsky parking in Chicago LaMotta, weighed 159 Robinson, was closer.
He was 150.
and Robinson had you know in those two years uh since LaMotta beat him last time and grown into his his own body.
Excuse me, so sometimes it takes a fighter a while to do that.
You know guys that are awkward that are bigger.
You know especially gigantic guys, like Dyson Fury, you know it takes a long time for them to get used to their own body and their own side, so Robinson was now more comfortable as as fighting at 150 pounds, because the fight at Welter, he only had to Drop three pounds and he won a close split decision on Kaminsky Park.
Lamotta believed he won the fight.
Most people in the newspapers believe lamado won.
What’S interesting about this fight is um people say well, you know what uh right after he beat him Detroit.
They fought again a week later in New York and lamado on that fight, and this was really they’re getting it confused.
It was this fight in 45 in Chicago, which was very, very close, and the problem with Chicago, of course, is Chicago’s a mob Town.
It was run by the outfit and it was hard for uh the money to get a break in Chicago or anywhere now.
Did the mom fix this fight? We don’t know that we know that the mob fixed most fights in the 40s and 50s.
We know that Robinson wasn’t a mob fighter.
Originally he turned down um Frankie carbo’s offers.
You know you lose to this guy and then you beat him in the rematch and he said no and Robinson could say no, not because he had gangsters behind or black gangsters, because he was the biggest draw in the sport.
So Robinson said to carbo.
You know not to be rude, Mr Cardwell, but if I walk away your money goes down 80 percent and so Robinson, even when he lost they still had to give him his due.
Because you know he’s the money in the sport Robinson.
Wasn’T a well-ledged fighter by the way Robinson did this with lamanna, but basilio really hated them and Carmen told me many times how you know when they were supposed to fight at Yankee Stadium.
He fought him twice, but he did it with a lot of Fighters.
What Robinson would do is you’d be an hour before the fight and it’s being broadcast and Robinson would just say, I’m not going in the ring unless I get 25 more in basilio, look at him saying you’re getting a 75 or you’re getting a 65 35 split.
I’M not giving you up 25 of what I have left.
That’S ridiculous! I’M not fighting for that.
Little well, no fight! Then you got ta signed contract.
Well, we’ll go to court, but I’m not getting in the ring tonight.
And so what would happen? Is uh, basilio’s managers and other managers of other Fighters would give up a portion of their percentage to get Robinson in the ring.
Now it got Robinson, more money but of course, in the end, an antagonized, basilio and lamada a lot of other Fighters, and you don’t want to give a guy more motivation to pass your face in.
So this was quite common.
So in the early to mid 50s Robinson said, he’s had enough of boxing, he leaves he doesn’t want any more pressure from the mob he’s tired of it.
He goes in to Showbiz it’s already in show business, because boxing is entertainment.
Pretty comes goes to nightclubs, becomes a dancer, a singer and he’s all right, not great, but he’s all right and after about three years of this he has a meeting because he owned all of Harlem.
He had his restaurant.
She was raids, he had the great big Cadillac he’d go to Europe and travel and he’d have his manicurist with him.
He he’d have his hair stylist with him.
You know his masseuse.
He had a at the bat at that time.
Then they called a a dwarf that he carried with him.
A little person didn’t carry with him.
I mean Gary then took with him, and this was the way it was phrased in the paper back then so he was sort of a dilettante.
But after three years out of the ring he goes to meet with his business manager, who tells him you’re broke, and you owe hundreds of thousands to IRS.
How did that happen? Well, all these 20 businesses sugary Robinson’s, hair, styling, sugary, Robinson’s grocery store Sugar, Ray Robinson’s, uh manicure, pedicure, uh, Boutique Sugar, Ray Robinson’s clothing, store, sugary Robinson shoe, store Sugar, Ray Robinson’s television set store.
All of these places are managed by who his relatives and close friends who rip him off so now he’s got nothing so he’s got to close.
It all sell the businesses, it’s not enough to pay off the taxes.
It’S got to come back to boxing and now he’s got to make a deal with James Lawrence.
He runs the IBC international boxing club and that’s run by Frankie Carver.
The monster who took over Oni Madden took over from only Madden when Madden went into Exile in Arkansas he became the Godfather of Arkansas, so Carver was in front control of boxing then, and to make a deal with Norris means you had to make a deal with.
Carbo and fight the fights Carver wanted.
There is no evidence as far as I can see, or that I’ve heard from anyone that Robinson ever went in the tank for the mob.
Never through a fight he came back.
He lost his first fight back with Ralph Tiger Jones and he he comes back and he’s winning fights.
Eventually he beats Carl Bobo Olson for the title.
I think in two two or three rounds knocks him out, but before that he had the great uh February.
14.
1951 fight where he won the title from from Jake LaMotta.
Now I’m Mike basilio um the silly what didn’t particularly like Robinson, but when they had a knight in 65 at Madison Square Garden, to honor him.
They had former opponents in the ring and basilio was one of them and there were other Fighters there.
Lamotta wasn’t invited, although he lived less than two blocks from Madison Square Garden and the reason the model wasn’t invited was because he admitted to throwing a fight in front of the Catholic committee invested, getting um organized crimes, infiltration of boxing.
Now that committee, that Senate subcommittee still exists today, they still go after and look into fights today that they believe were had organized crime, influence and there’s quite a few.
So what had happened with Jake LaMotta was in order to get a fight for the world title.
You had to make a deal of carbo because carbo said you’re, not I don’t care who you’d be you’re, not getting a shot.
Unless you go through me, so he agreed to lose two cardboard’s fighter.
Blackjack Billy, Fox and blackjack Billy Fox was really a light heavyweight.
Couldn’T fight uh labata assured the commission for the fight? No, I don’t lose anyone.
I don’t go into the tank for anyone.
He loses in four rounds.
It was obviously a fix Robinson said he broke.
He had heard his uh, I think rotator cuff.
It’S not our spleen, excuse me, they shouldn’t believed them, and the commission believed them because it wasn’t the final ruler.
The final ruler was the mafia, with Frankie Garbo and now he said believe him, and so he gets his license back and he keeps fighting even though he went into the tank for the mob and the mob made a fortune off of him.
He still had to wait almost three years: nine fights and ended up paying another 30 Grand in cold cash to carbo before he gets a chance to beat Marcel Sudan.
That’S what the mob did to him now.
What’S sad here is when Robinson dies in 89.
He’S got maybe a half a million to his name when lamada dies um in 217 at the age of 95.
, lamanna had upwards of 10 to 15 million dollars.
He was very smart with the money he had.
They show him as a comedian, and you know and Raging Bull a lot of Raging.
Bull wasn’t true, although Jake said to me one time as mean as I was in that movie, I was a lot meaner in real life, so he had invested in condos and land in Florida and he made a lot of money off of it.
So he ended up in financially good shape and, although he would repeat stories when he got older, you could sit and have a conversation um with him, and I did – and you know he was an interesting guy.
I mean when I saw him in 209 to 10.
You know lamada was, I guess, 88, he had his young wife, that was in her 40s and and a kid he had like a seven or eight year old kid.
Now he had a daughter and two sons.
One son died of cancer.
The other son died in that plane crash over Gander Newfoundland and he said to me he thought the death of his two sons was punishment to him from God.
By the way he lived his life.
He said: that’s why a lot of times when he I said to him that sounds a bit far-fetched, but I understand what you’re saying you don’t want to disagree.
If the guy he’s obviously he’s still in pain – and he said a lot of times – you’d see him on the ropes in a fight and he’d.
Let a guy hit him and he said he did that because he thought he deserved the punishment for the way he lived his life.
That’S a bit of a skewed view.
Boxers can be like that at times.
Why do athletes can’t? But you know he he was the middleweight champion of the world and who am I to upset him because even at the age of 88 or 87 and I’m you know 49, I’m not going to take him up.
I it’s still Jake LaMotta, so he had wonderful stories um to tell – and I think I’ve mentioned this before he said in the movie when lamada or when Robinson beats him the last time and he goes over to him and he says he didn’t knock me down Right, it doesn’t count um, he said to me.
I never said that because he knocked he shredded my lips and knocked a lot of my teeth out broke my nose and he said I had to be carried to my corner.
I couldn’t catch my breath, I didn’t say a damn thing to him, not for many years and I said: do you hate him and he said no, I I don’t hate Ray.
I mean there were times.
I didn’t like some of the things he pulled, but I let it go.
You know raise a person, I’m a person, uh no reason for me to go after him or say bad things.
He was a great fighter and we became good friends um and you would think that’s odd, because lamado when he was young, didn’t look at anyone as his friend except it’s brother.
Joey, didn’t trust anyone, but these men made history together and when people look at their fights most of the time, they just remember the fight from February 14th 1951, but they had fights.
You know before that and of the six fights they had lamada won one officially.
I think you can give him credit for the Chicago one, which is a split decision, and I think the one before that uh in New York, which was given to Ray that one was very close.
I mean that could have gone either way.
So I I think, looking at it is 5-1 for Ray Robinson, wasn’t really correct.
Uh I mean that’s how it officially is, but we know that sometimes the official’s going, especially back in the 40s and 50s, was uh easily skewed uh.
Both of them were tremendous, draws.
Um, the fake that lamala won, I mean lamanna, was immensely proud and you have to give Robin some credit because Robinson didn’t make any bones about it.
He didn’t complain, he didn’t say I got a rod decision, he hit me illegally or he held me or he did this.
He said I lost to the better man.
The better man won tonight and all credit to him got to give him his due and that’s what boxing is all about.
This is why, last night, I was upset watching uh, the zoo, Harrison fight and, after the fight Tim Zoo, cursing repeatedly.
What’S my MF name? What’S my, they didn’t do that back then guys, like Robinson and lamada Joe Lewis, never cursed when he was interviewed, neither the George Foreman or Ali or Joe Frazier.
So there’s no need for that in sport of boxing.
If you get a chance watch, Robinson and Lamar watch everything you can uh on them, the 13th, the 13th round knockdown or stoppage.
Some 51 is a great fight, because lamado was in the fight for a long time and then he just ran out of steam.
Making the way killed him and, as I said, he was in middleweight, because there was more money at middleweight but body wise for him.
It would have been smarter to be at light heavyweight, but he didn’t want to take the 55-60 pay cut and what’s amazing, about lamanna courses, he ended up with all that money, even though the mob had stolen all this money.
But La model was not a predictable person, so the mob sort of was leery of him.
They controlled him in his fights, but you know they never knew.
If he was, I mean La model was in nightclubs or mob, guys would make passes at his wife and he would beat the hell out of them, and you know when these mob guys would complain to the superiors you know you got to do something about them.
They said they just don’t antagonize him.
This guy’s a nut case stay away from me and when lamada testified in front of the Opera commission, and when I spoke them, he said I had no fear of them.
I had a tremendous hatred of them like that.
Doesn’T come from being brave? I was just too stupid to know how and how much danger I was, and he said, but then again being that naive is probably a good thing, because if I wasn’t, I wouldn’t have done what I did a lot of the time.
He said I, you know, I told them off in front of their peers and I beat up a lot of those guys and there was never any blowback and he said that was just pure luck and uh.
I was lucky enough to to meet him on many occasions here in Toronto and in New York, uh uh.
I never had a chance to meet uh Robinson Robinson had a bad Dimension near the end of his life and he did have money problems, but uh um.
Angela Dundee’s good friend Melvin, dick Melvin was a man who owns the second or third largest Wine and Spirits company in the Southern United States, so he’s very well off.
He helped Ray Robinson.
In fact, Ray Robinson went to his bar mitzvah.
If you believe it, I mean this is a story.
He told an Angela’s funeral Angel introduced into Ray and Ray went to his bar mitzvah.
Imagine that Sugar Ray Robinson driving you to the apartment enter your prom in his pink Cadillac and he was the escort.
You know he acted like a butler or whatever, and they were good friends throughout their whole life because uh this was Mel’s hero and when Angelo brought him to stillman’s gym in New York, Mel would go in every day and just stare at Sugar Ray Robinson.
He didn’t care about the other Fighters, he didn’t care and Robinson notices, this white kid looking at him for like three weeks and he turns a kid every day you come in here.
What’S your problem, why are you doing this? Why are you staring at me because I love you and you’re my hero and Robinson just had tears coming down his face, I mean you know being born in the South moving to Detroit New York.
You know what segregation and Prejudice was the kids.
Didn’T this kid? Didn’T have it.
This was a young Jewish kid who just idolized him and they became good friends.
So after his bar mitzvah, this is a great story.
He’S got his bar mitzvah soon on and they go back to stillman’s, gym and Robinson hasn’t telling everyone.
I just said my apartment, so I did and Angelo Dundee who was fluent in Yiddish by the way was congratulating him and all the other guys were congratulating him and all the fighters, and he said, go tell Joe Joe Lewis and Joe Lewis was taking a shower And he literally opens up the shower curtain and there’s Joe Lewis completely naked showering.
He says Joe, I just had my bar mitzvah and, and he said good for you – son muscle, tough closed up close the shower curtain.
Please, and of course this was explained to me it’s hard to say this – I have to clean this up.
Joe Lewis was um, I don’t even know if you get a Milton bro reference, Joe Lewis friend of mine, a comedian Kenny Robinson um parents on the jazz club in Winnipeg, and he has black and white photographs that Joe Lewis coming up and when Joe would visit.
Um he would ask for all these different women of the evening to escort him, but their prices would go up six seven fold because they said Joe Lewis was too much man for one woman.
So when this kid walks in and opens the curtain and everyone’s standing out there, including themselves kind of a funny moment, anyways, that’s way off topic uh, it was Melvin dick who helped look after Ray Robinson, Ray Robinson.
I had dementia and he was with him a lot of the time, so Ray Robinson had a soft Landing.
It’S not like by many of the people that he knew or fought against, but certainly has to be considered the greatest fighter where people have lived pound per pound.
If you ask me, if you asked Angela Dundee my mentor, he’d say Willie Pep lamado rates up there lamada did more with what he had than any other fighter.
I ever saw he had skill and he had toughness and he had no fear and he didn’t not have any fear because he wasn’t bright, you can’t have fear, fear doesn’t enter into it at that level.
A lot of times you’ll see critics that I see that guy was afraid of that guy.
He doesn’t enter into it at the elite level of pro boxing fear only enters into it.
When you hurt your opponent, and you fear that you may have fatally injured but being scared of someone unless you’re fighting a listener format, it just didn’t enter into the OR Lewis it didn’t enter into it, lamada and Robinson are are inextricably linked together throughout the annals Of boxing as well, they should be people talk about the great fights three fights of Tony Zell and Rocky Graziano, Arturo Gotti and and Mickey Ward.
Imagine six fights like that between these two, where there was very little give and take, except for the last fight.
Every fight was close and went down the last couple seconds of the last round.
These were two of the all-time greatest Fighters and middleweight champions ever to have lived.
I’M Lou Eisen, that’s Ring talk.
I hope you had a good time.
See you again.
Next week, please visit my sub stack luizen.
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com Once Upon a Time in the prize Wing prize ring.
This week I started the first of a four or five part series on the history of the mob and boxing and I’m sure you’ll enjoy that see you again next week.
At the same time, bye bye, thank you.
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