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EPISODE: Episode 1
Join us for an exciting episode of Ring Talk with Lou Eisen as we welcome a true veteran of sports journalism, Murray Greig, to the show. With a career spanning decades, Murray Greig has left an indelible mark on the world of sports reporting and authorship.
Murray’s impressive repertoire includes seven books, including Canadian bestsellers like “Chuvalo: A Fighter’s Life” (co-authored with George Chuvalo) and “Big Bucks & Blue Pucks: An anecdotal history of the late, great World Hockey Association.”
Before making his mark as an author, Murray served as a staff writer and columnist at major dailies in some of Canada’s sports hotspots, including Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, and Toronto. His journalistic prowess then took him on a unique journey to Beijing, where he spent a decade as the lead sports columnist for China Daily, Asia’s largest English-language publication with a circulation of 875,000.
Throughout his career, Murray Greig has penned more than 500 features for a wide range of publications, including The Ring, Hockey News, Hockey Illustrated, The Hockey Research Journal, The Official CFL Magazine, World Boxing Digest, Asian Sports Review, TV Guide, Canadian Sports Card Collector, and Sports Collectors Digest.
In this episode, we’ll explore Murray Greig’s incredible journey through the world of sports journalism. From covering boxing legends to the high-stakes world of hockey, Murray’s insights and stories promise to be a treasure trove for sports enthusiasts and aspiring journalists alike.
Join us as we celebrate the remarkable career of Murray Greig on Ring Talk with Lou Eisen. Like, comment, and share this episode to honor the legacy of a true sports journalism icon.
Transcribed
[, Music, ] foreign [, Music, ] boxing writer and historian, and today we’re lucky to have on the show it’s a privilege, Mr Murray Greg, who is Canada’s Canada’s best ever sports writer, but also Canada’s Premier, Boxing writer and historian ever and if you want to know Anything about boxing you speak to him um.
I just wanted to let you know uh that he’s written many books, so I we would be here for a couple hours.
If, if I was to name all of them by the way, I’m I keep getting pinged as I’m speaking, because the Jays choked tonight and lost uh Murray is the author of six books for Canadian U.
S Publishers and, of course, and I have them so he’s written Chavalo a Fighter’s life.
This is a must-have for any Canadian sports fan boxing fan and Canadian and he’s also written my Bible Going the Distance, which is the Premier history, the best ever written about the history of Canada’s greatest fighters of all all of Canada’s Fighters.
He’S also published the complete idiots guide and I am a complete idiot, so that was for me to the biggest deals in hockey history and the complete idiots guide to Boomer TV, Penguin Books.
New York, 1999 2000 Trail on Ice A Century of hockey.
That’S from Trail BC in the home of Champions, and also big bucks and blue pucks from Hall to Gretzky and anecdotal history of the late great World Hockey Association.
I went to many games there and author of more way more than 500 byline features for every North, American and Asian periodical you you know of including the hockey news TV Guide Ring magazine.
Sports collectors digest the hockey research Journal Asian sports review.
Anyone anywhere wanting to find out something about hockey and the history going back 150 years and boxing going back more than that Murray Greg’s, the guy you’re, going to call because he’s got it all uh.
He worked for the China Daily 2 and three to 205 and also 212 to 220.
.
He was the Alberta writer in Residence in 208 and it’s also part of an initiative jointly administered by the Library, Association of Alberta and the Alberta Writers Guild, and he was contracted by the northern light system to serve as a writer and residence for 12 um Northeast Alberta, communities and he’s also written for sun media uh 1984-202.
He was Canada and the world’s Premier Boxing writer 205-12.
He was the senior copy, editor and staff writer Edmonton Sun um, and he he covered Pro and amateur boxing hockey and auto racing.
He also wrote nationally, if it’s indicated daily TV columns and for Syndicate the weekly boxing columns.
He is simply when he’s the Muhammad Ali of Canadian box right Watson, writing and hockey.
Writing there.
Isn’T anyone better than him he’s the gold standard against which everyone else has measured? Please welcome to the show Mr Murray Greg wow.
My mom couldn’t have done a better job.
You’Re.
Probably thinking wait a minute.
I think the only money still yeah.
Absolutely it’s.
It’S a privilege and a pleasure to have you on.
We had a great talk last night and I could talk to you and pick your brain for the next 30 Years.
Um about boxing I I love your books.
Go in the distance.
Uh should be required.
Reading for everyone from grade one on, because these are true heroes of the of our nation to help build the nation.
Well, I you know, I wrote that in 96 and the idea I had the idea of sort of running around my mind for a few years, but it always bothered me that uh, you know, everybody knows our Sports heroes are all hockey players right and with few Exceptions, you know we got Steve Nash in basketball.
We got a couple of ball players, we got.
You know Joe Villeneuve, but uh.
You know you look at guys like George Dixon and Sam Lankford and Lou briard and George LeBlanc uh.
All these guys that you know had marvelous marvelous Marine careers, and you know in in a lot of ways true pioneers of the sport.
I mean George Dixon basically invented Shadow Boxing.
He you know he invented the speed bag yeah.
He was.
He was the most famous black man on the planet and the first black champion in in boxing history, but nobody knows about him, you know uh, and so it you know it it always.
It always kind of uh bothered me that you know this stuff was lost to history.
So what I was doing Going, the Distance it was uh.
It was a pleasure to go back and and uh and research researched these guys and and try and try and uh.
We weave a narrative that uh would, you know, would bring their exploits back to uh back to life for a lot of Canadians, most Canadians that had never heard of them.
You, you weren’t, even farther than that.
I I said I sent something to Canada Post, but you did it long before I did a much more eloquently you, you said to file on George Dixon and other Fighters, saying that this is part of our Canadian Heritage.
They helped build this nation and there needs to be recognition of this.
You know it should be on scans.
Absolutely you know, and we you know we we uh, you know as Canadians, we have a we haven’t.
We, we have a national inferiority complex to begin with.
Um, you know, and and and we just for whatever reason – there’s resistance to recognizing guys that uh and men and women that that maybe weren’t you know, uh mainstream famous as it were, uh and and whose exploits are lost at time.
But when I, when I did that I I I wrote a proposal, I went through my mp years ago uh to get in touch with the officials at Canada Post and I proposed that they do a six stamp feature on on Canadian Fighters and uh.
You know it was received, you know very positively.
I had some very positive feedback.
I did profiles on on several Fighters that they would consider.
You know that I hope they would consider but um.
You know we went back and forth for about six months and they seemed really enthusiastic about it, and then that was it, they dropped it no explanation, no, no Rhyme or Reason uh, you know, that’s not that’s not forgivable and it’s not like you’re coming out of The ether you’re a world-renowned boxing writer, you know so people from all over the world and other Canadians come to you to find out about these people.
You know what you’re talking about it’s.
It’S inconceivable that they, you know, you wrote it out for them, you did their job yeah exactly, and you know it’s interesting.
You should bring that up because when Going the Distance came out uh, you know it did very well, but but the vast majority of the of the letters and the and the feedback that I got was from readers in the U.
S and Europe.
You know I mean I I got you know I got, I got some from Canada, but but the overwhelming majority was from the US and and Europe and Australia, you know it’s it’s interesting.
You say that I was working on a book about George Dixon and Jason.
Winters beat me to it and a friend of mine in England, Tony G’s, a bare knuckle boxing writer and it’s growing.
You know Tony, and so he sent me articles about Dixon that were written in Australia and New Zealand and people I mean you know, but Canadians should know that he was a world-renowned figure.
This was a black man who was loved everywhere and respected for his talent.
Exactly he was he would you know he would and at that time, particularly in England uh there were, you know there were still uh.
You know there was still a very rigidly enforced social strata.
As far as you know, the races were, but in England he was treated like royalty in Australia.
It was true to like royalty, New Zealand.
He was treated like royalty in the U.
S.
He you know he was mobbed every year where he went.
You know in a good way, but uh Canadians now nothing, it’s unbelievable.
When I was doing research on them seven or eight years ago I called someone in Nova Scotia in their archives and and the person said.
Why would there be any info on them? No black people have done anything in Nova Scotia of anyone, and I thought I wish I’d taped that yeah exactly exactly you know, and I mean the same goes for Sam Langford who’s, the greatest fighter to never win a world title exactly exactly, and yet you mentioned Sam Langford, to you know a thousand Canadians and 999 of them are going to go, who late he would have beaten catch him again had ketchall not been murdered.
I wanted to talk to you about this, so he fights ketchup and catcho agrees to fight him.
Again.
That’S right and ketcho, and I was reading a friend of yours, a friend of mine, Arnie, Lang’s book on the Dixon fight with Terry McGovern right and how’s how how much of an outlier! So how odd is it that McGovern and ketcho weren’t bigots, I mean so many fighters are racist, then, but these two guys they they like they had no problem with it.
They had no problem with them.
I think I think number one.
I think that that was just in them and number two.
They were very Savvy businessmen both of them and they both knew that.
You know this was a meal ticket.
I mean you know.
Uh you know quechel ketchal’s whole career was was was was built around controversial fights that that you know he, you know he would he.
He would either look just good enough to win and get a rematch immediately from for more dollars or he’d fight, he’d fight black Fighters that nobody else wanted to touch because he knew that it was a.
You know a sure way to get not only headlines but a lot more bucks right and Langford.
If you don’t, you know if quechel hadn’t died, lying forgets that title absolutely absolutely and you know the whole the whole.
The whole thing was that uh, you know Langford.
I mean Jack Johnson wanted nothing to do with Langford I mean they did fight once well, not long before, but but uh Johnson was very adamant that you know he wanted nothing to do with like and that reputation went all the way up to Jack Dempsey.
I mean Jack Dempsey, wrote in his own, autobiography the one guy that he feared that he flat out wouldn’t fight with Sam Langford yeah.
That’S a great point because I I mean I I mentioned this to Randy Robertson.
You know, and so many other writers, you know them all um.
It must drive you crazy when you see revision as history online or on some articles yeah, and you think you know, even with George Chevelle.
You think I was there at that fight exactly exactly yes, but it’s you know, but that’s you know.
That’S that’s! Symptomatic of of what’s what’s happening across all areas of research and all and and writing in general uh nowadays, if, if somebody can’t go on Google or go on the internet and find an answer on Wikipedia in 15 seconds, you know they they just dismiss it all.
It didn’t happen, it’s not on Wikipedia, you know it’s right and, and you know the the days of the days of of writers going back like you have and – and I have and a lot of these other guys have you know where you go back to the Original sources and to me that you know, and I’m sure, you’ll agree, you know the greatest single source for a research researcher, especially in sports research, is the daily newspapers, The Daily Press, because that that’s as it happened and that’s this that’s the single best record, because It’S immediate: it’s immediate um! You know I’ve done.
I’Ve done a lot of research and I’m just working on a book right now about the uh McCarty pelkey fighting in Calgary for the worldwide Heavyweight Championship: 1913 yeah um, but again uh.
You know the records of that are totally lost, except for the original newspaper accounts and uh.
That to me is a Priceless Source but uh.
Sadly, as you know, as the newspaper industry continues to die, a long slowed down um, you know those resources are going to be gone forever.
So thank you know.
I I thank heaven that we’ve still got uh.
We’Ve still got.
You know historical uh research being done on the internet for by people that are dedicated enough to go back and look at the original sources instead of just you know, this piecemeal selection of you know the flavor of the week, and and what can we put to? What can we put together that makes sense that uh, you know it’s going to be good enough.
It’S heartbreaking because newspaper it’s brought down Richard Nixon and other corrupt governments, they’re the ones that keep people honest exactly and everywhere, yeah.
Without them we lose our biggest policemen.
That’S right, and now I mean what you know: what passes for journalism today is is really just regurgitation.
It’S you know: retweet retweet, retweet retweet.
You know who cares? You know who cares about some? You know Anonymous, Tweeter or Twitter guy that that wants to react to a story.
I mean the days of of having people uh on site on the scene that actually probe and investigate and dig and do the do.
The grunt work, they’re they’re, sadly gone, but back in the day back in the day in boxing, as you well know, was the number one.
The number one attraction in in newspapers for half a century yeah front page stories all the time but uh, but they were you.
You know it’s it’s it’s a sad commentary on on.
I think in our society in general that uh, the days of probing and digging and investigating are, you know, are gone yeah.
They don’t cover newspapers, especially in Toronto.
Don’T cover box and the sun.
Would you work for was the only one in the whole country, yeah yeah.
You know Steve buffering here your friend and you were the only two yeah.
You were one of him and you we’re the only guys yeah pretty much and it’s uh.
You know, like you know, I remember I remember back in the day I mean you look, you know 1986, When Willy DeWitt and Ken lekusa sold out Northlands Coliseum in Edmonton for the Canadian title fight.
I mean 15 000 people uh.
You know that was unheard of at the time and, and there was there was well over 200 200 requests for media credentials, wow and yet and yet, two years later, two years later, when uh the witch.
Finally, you know called it a day on his career uh, with his final fight against Henry Tillman, the uh, the Olympic rematch fight.
There was uh.
There was me buffering, and I think two other guys beautiful about you doing the arthropelby Luther McCarty book.
It’S it’s a great story, but you’re the only one who can write it.
Thank you, you’re, the only one of the talent and the skill, but also the knowledge not only of what it meant to boxing what it meant to the province of Alberta and what it meant to Canada and to the boxing Community around the world at that time.
Well, absolutely because it you know it was, it was a benchmark, uh event, because it you know the fact that the fact that uh you know McCarty was killed in the you know.
In the first minute of the first round, um, you know opened up a whole new level of debate on whether you know prize fighting should be all together banned in Canada.
It was in in Alberta for several years, uh and and and and what it, what it meant to society to to have this kind of spectacle and uh.
You know it it it it it it.
It’S ramifications, went far beyond.
You know that that May 24th weekend in 1913.
uh, you know uh and and the ratio real overtones um.
You know, for you know, having a white Heavyweight Championship that continued right up until basically, you know the the 60s.
You know when you know and and uh you know I mean as as recently as 1985.
I think it was uh when you had uh Dwayne, bovik and and Cali Knutson, South Africa and having it build as the world white Heavyweight Championship yeah.
So you know here’s something I wanted to ask you.
So I at the international Boxing Hall of Fame and you’ve, been there a million times, and I was there with.
I was lucky enough to be there with you and George right and and uh, I should say trouble, but I was sitting around for a group of people, these other writers and historians, and they mentioned we’re talking about the the lineage and they said well, you know, Starts of General Sultan, and I said I don’t consider him.
I consider him to be the first White heavyweight champion because he didn’t fight George dot free, that’s right and it didn’t fight Peter Jackson.
So how can you say he was the best heavyweight in the world? Exactly exactly and that’s you know, but that that’s part and parcel with with uh, with with the whole idea that uh, you know, uh, you couldn’t be a true world champion unless you’re, a white guy and and with in Sullivan’s case I mean that’s.
That was the start of the quote-unquote modern era of the heavyweight championship, but it goes back 200 years before that yeah, it’s like Tom, mullion and, and you know and Jackson and and these guys and and but they’re again, they’re they’re basically lost to history.
Yeah.
I’Ve read books on molyneux and and also um uh.
I can see him his face that the guy that trained him, the other Black Fighter, all right, yeah, yeah and and it’s just heartbreaking – you know what what they what they go through and how molyneux you know is cheated.
You know, because I mean you know this: it’s not down yeah and everyone’s saying hey.
He did him, he had a foul and they give him they’re arguing for 30 minutes, at which point they go.
Oh okay, well he’s awake now, anyways, let’s just yeah exactly exactly and then you know, and then you go.
You know you go.
You know during during Jack Johnson’s Reign after he after he defeated Tommy Burns and and Johnson actually kind of pulled a reverse, uh color line right.
You know he wouldn’t fight any other.
He wouldn’t fight any fellow black Fighters because you know the other guy, like Joe Jeanette yeah.
It’S like had to fight Langford 18 times 18 times.
You know, and Georgia, not in any other era, would have been a heavyweight champion of the world.
Yeah and Langford would have yeah, and I mean you look at Langford beat Joe Gans Langford was trained by George Bunch buyers and Tommy Ryan, as you know, wouldn’t fight him.
That’S right, yeah and everyone said well wait a minute.
You can’t call Ryan racist.
He fought black Fighters, he didn’t fight elite, Black Fighters like George Byers, yeah, yeah and buyers and godfreed are two success stories.
This is something that Canadians need to know.
I mean Godfrey retired with a lot of money and his family grew it because they wouldn’t sell the land that he bought exactly yeah, yeah and Canadians have no clue.
Well, you know I was talking to a fella the other day and uh.
We were talking about Jack, Johnson and, and he said uh, it’s strange that uh, you know Johnson uh didn’t fight any Canadians.
I said well, there was a guy named Sandy Ferguson from from Nova Scotia, who fought Johnson seven times seven times and and uh got two draws with him um, but but he was one he was one of the.
He was one of the white go-to opponents for Jack uh who who had to stay busy um, but he but but Ferguson, had you know a pretty a pretty decent career.
But again it’s just been lost in history because nobody knows about it.
Nobody, nobody cares about.
Even in Nova, Scotia, no and – and you know, Johnson, it’s such an interesting character.
I mean he definitely Joe Woodman’s blankford’s manager, said years later that he definitely beat Langford.
He said Langford yeah, I wrote stuff of the opposite, just to save Sam’s confidence, but he said this was Sam’s 18th or 20th Pro fight, and this was like the 85th fight for Johnson, but he could see how well, as you said, Langford became, but didn’t Johnson Agree with the national sporting club that if he beat Burns, he fights Langford there right, that’s right, that’s right and he ended up.
He ended up sailing when he left Australia.
They sailed to.
They made a stop in Honolulu and then went to Victoria Victoria he’s the new he’s, the new heavyweight champion of the world, and he and his Entourage get off the boat and Victoria go to the Empress Hotel, which is you know still.
You know the queen of hotels in Victoria right on the right in the Inner Harbor and uh.
They wouldn’t give him a room.
They told him.
His wife was free to stay there because she was white, but him and the sparring partners.
Everybody else had to find other accommodation and the same thing happened two nights later in Vancouver, so he ended up.
He ended up making you know in some in some sources it’s called the title, defense and others.
It’S called the the six-round exhibition, but he ended up in Vancouver uh just three months after beating Burns.
He made his first appearance as champion in the ring against Victor McLaughlin, who was uh an Irish guy from from Spokane Washington, who would who had worked as a police officer in Winnipeg who moved down to Spokane.
To do some boxing came back up to Vancouver, fought Johnson, got absolutely beaten to a pulp, but but realized it had the good sense to realize his limitations became a movie actor down in Hollywood, ended up winning it in an Academy Award for uh the Intruder.
Yeah yeah well, this is the question I meant to ask you before.
I want to ask you before I forget so Tommy Burns had a wife named Jewel and I’ve read opposite thing.
Different thing.
Excuse me, so I asked Adam Paula, who wrote a book on him right other offers.
I said I heard Jewel was the sister of a black spotting partner.
I heard Jewel was black and Adam said we don’t know he said, there’s so many different reports.
Yeah.
That’S true, it’s there’s been, I mean, that’s that’s been uh kicked around for a lot of years.
Uh and Burns Burns was Burns, always avoided it.
He never.
You know he never talked about it, one way or the other, but there’s there’s uh.
There’S a lot of evidence to indicate that yeah his she was uh.
She was uh part black yeah.
You know I think Burns was ahead of his time in the sense that people were outraged, that he asked for 30 grand to fight Johnson, but he said he’s the best one.
If that’s right he’s at risk, I should get the most money exactly exactly and he was you know.
People forget that Tommy was always self-managed.
You know he he negotiated all his own deals.
He you know he signed his own supporting partners.
He took care of all his arrangements and he was he was.
He was a brilliant businessman and uh.
You know he knew he knew going in.
I mean Johnson to chase them all around the world.
But again, uh Burns was the first legitimate legitimate world champion because he beat the best from everybody else.
He beat the American champion.
He beat the British champion.
The French Champion South African Champion the Australian champion and and Johnson was on his tail the whole time and Tommy finally thought.
Well, you know let’s get it on, but if we’re gon na I I got ta get the Lion’s Share of the dome right.
What still goes on today, yeah yeah yeah, you know I, I asked sorry Ashford sugar.
I said people always demean Tommy Burns and he said they didn’t during his time.
They only did after he fought Johnson.
He said these were bigots.
Who spread lies about them? That’S right, he wasn’t a good fighter.
He said Burns was actually a great fighter, so he said people compare him and Willard, but he said he said I don’t think Willard would have gone two rounds with Tommy Burns.
Despite the height difference, I think Burns would have destroyed him as bad as Dempsey.
He said, but because he had the gall to say to these racist former Champions.
I’M going to give this man a chance, give her that wasn’t the media and everyone attacked him exactly exactly and you look at you look at a guy like Jack in London.
You know the famous novelist you know uh White Fang and called The Wild uh.
He was the correspondent for the New York Herald at ringside in Ross Cutters Bay.
When, when Johnson Burns fought and uh you know you read, you read his account of the fight and it’s like uh, you know what were you watching? You know you know how this pipsqueak from Canada had no chance at all, and was you know, was beaten through a you know, a you know, a pile of mush by the giant Ethiopian you know and in in fact, if you, if you watch the film, I Mean Burns yeah, he lost the fight, but he got in his licks and and he was still on his feet when it ended and – and you know he he never because of because of the racism and because of the reaction uh, you know of white people to The fact that, like you mentioned he, you know he he stood up and said.
No, this guy deserves a chance.
People never forgave him for that and for the rest of the for the rest of his life yeah.
That’S what exactly what bird sugar said? Yeah – and you know – and you mentioned this to me at the hall of fame years ago, but yeah that they still dislike him because of it and it it’s it’s.
It’S revisionist history exactly and that and now now, of course it you know and it gains legs.
You know through the decades.
So now you bring up the name Tommy Burns out.
He was a bum, you know he’s just a little guy.
He had no business being Champion, which is you know, totally wrong yeah because he beat everybody.
He beat everybody.
Chris Dundee told me one time.
He said you’ve heard us before son, but implies it’s not the size of the dog in the fight.
It’S the size of the fighting, the dog exactly and he said, Tommy Burns at that time was the toughest man on the face of the Earth and he would have taken on anyone anytime anything exactly he did he did and he did yeah and he was smart.
He went to Johnson’s body, that’s what you do with a taller guy yeah yeah, and he was you know he was.
He was uh beside the fact that you know he would like.
I said he was the first true world champion and that he you know he he left North America and and went to Europe went to Australia fought everybody.
You know every everybody that that that came calling um.
He was an Innovative fighter.
He he for a little guy, he had unusually long arms, but but for a little guy he, you know he he, he mastered the art of of pivoting, to get maximum maximum leverage on his punches.
And if you watch the films of them I mean he.
You know he was a real slick, puncher, a real slick, one especially like you said to the body, and that was the only chance he had against Johnson and uh and early on early on in the fight I mean he, you know he got he more than He more than held his own yes, and what I love about Burns and the bill.
Swires fight and other fights that you’ve seen a million times.
Is I’m going to be circling he’s watching what the guy’s gon na do exactly he’s, letting the guy throw punches and he’s going? Okay, so he’s gon na launch he’s gon na do this and then he moves in and takes the guy out yeah yeah yeah.
He was a very cerebral fighter, yeah yeah, a great man and, and once again you know other than the book by Mr McCaffrey uh, who I’ve been trying to contact for years and and the stuff you’ve written.
You know, he’d be lost to the ages.
That’S right and you know it’s it’s kind of sad.
I mean you know the story, but he was buried.
You know he died in Vancouver, um yeah it broke and and uh.
He was buried in unmarked grave and it wasn’t until years later that that uh Cyclone Taylor and some some other hockey players and lacrosse players that Tommy had been friends with, got together and and and got a nice headstone.
And you can go today to Ocean View.
Cemetery in Burnaby BC – and it’s you know it it’s very simple, but it’s it’s it’s it’s striking and it’s uh.
It’S sad that you know uh, there’s not more recognition of that.
It should be a Tommy Burns Day, absolutely yeah.
We have Robbie Burns, yeah, yeah yeah.
This was a great man.
Cyclone Taylor had an interesting comment.
He they asked him about the racist things he said to Johnson.
He held up his hand.
He said he got caught up in the hoopla, but if you knew Tommy he wasn’t like that, and I saw that I saw him in a mixed company.
He said I saw him with black people and white people yeah.
He wasn’t like that.
That’S right, he just got caught up in what was going on at that time in Australia, and he was you know he was like, like we mentioned before, he was a good businessman too.
He knew what you know.
He knew what buttons to push to sell more tickets.
You know to get more height.
He also was the only one that ever apologized to Johnson, absolutely absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah and Johnson was really taken by that and Johnson himself said he was a great fighter.
He did yes on more than one occasion yeah, so you you know if Jack Johnson, the greatest defensive fighter who ever says that I mean.
Who else are you going to believe you know so absolutely one of the other things I wanted to I mean is you know I could name a million Fighters that you you know we could go off for a year, but I love the George Cheval book.
It was very evocative, but it was also touching.
I was extremely sad when it ended.
I didn’t want it to end and uh through times when I laughed out loud like like with uh um, uh, Cleveland Williams, talking about getting punched in the balls and, and that was hysterical in the men’s room, but also times you know, talking about George’s family, where I was really really crying.
It was just he’s such an inescapably, Canadian figure and so much a part of the history of our country.
It was like he was pulled directly from the Canadian Shield.
Exactly exactly I.
I don’t think you know, I don’t think other than maybe Gordie Howe.
I don’t think, there’s another Canadian athlete that comes close to representing the true Spirit of Canada and the resilience and the determination uh.
You know you know on a national level than than George does and I’ll tell you I’ll tell you in 20 2017, when I was in uh when I was working in China, uh me and my girlfriend decided to take a little holiday to North Korea and uh.
It’S a it’s a complicated process to get a Visa uh for for a Canadian to go to North Korea and you have to leave from China, but I was already living in China um.
So when we made the application, hers was approved right away because she’s, a Chinese citizen.
But for me, it took several months, and one of the one of one of the Hang-Ups for for applying for a Visa is that you have to tell them uh who you’re working for in China what your employer is, but they don’t allow journalists in unless they’re Invited so to get around that I was working for China Daily, so we couldn’t very well tell them that I you know as a journalist, so uh my girlfriend said.
Well, you know we’ll write we’ll put on the application you’re an author.
You know for Canadian and American Publishers, you write books and we’ll see, if so sure enough.
We fired it in and they came back and said: yeah we’ll we’ll approve the Visa.
But when you get to Pyongyang, you’re going to have to show us a book with.
Mr Greg’s name on it, so we know he’s a real off, so the chevalo book had only come out a few months before that and they, the publisher, is good enough to send a dozen copies to me in Beijing.
So I thought well I’ll.
Just take one of those, so so we get to Pyongyang International Airport and they only call it that because there’s a flight from Vladivostok every day and a flight from Beijing every day other than that, it’s a it’s an Ultra Modern, 21st century spectacular looking airport.
That’S totally empty, so we’re standing in line at customs and all of a sudden three guys in uniform come up, and I’m the only white guy in this group of Chinese tourists um and they they’re.
Looking for the author right, so my girlfriend tells them that you know: we’ve got the book and they whisk us into this little office and obviously they don’t speak English or read English, but they speak Chinese.
So they asked my girlfriend for the book she hands it to them and there’s three guys: one of them’s, you know old, like us and the other two are, are, you know fairly young guys but they’re all in you know official uniforms and they take the book And they make a big deal about flipping through it to make sure there’s nothing.
You know offensive especially the pictures so they’re flipping through and they get to the pictures and all of a sudden, the old guy looks up with a big smile in his face and he points the picture he goes Ali Ali and my girlfriend tells him in Chinese.
Yes, his friend fought and Muhammad Ali two times, and the guy goes Ali Ali he’s going like this right, so that was it they stamp.
It we’re good to go.
Yeah yeah, that’s a fantastic story, that’s a wonderful story! Well, it was great and it was.
It was fantastic because you know everywhere that when I was working in China, I was there on and off for a total, almost 10 years, and I got to travel all over Asia covering events and everywhere I went.
I ran into boxing fans and, and the name of Muhammad Ali was just magic and I was pleasantly shocked, stunned in some cases, uh that you know to find Chinese and Filipino and Japanese and South Korean fans that knew all about George, too so yeah, it’s uh And I saw this because you were right with them.
You know people from Australia, South Africa, um uh.
Norway would come up and say: George cevallo yeah, I’ve known you since I and they never met him did yeah.
So you mean the world to me yeah.
He was always polite, especially with kids.
Oh, he would sign the autographs there.
I mean you saw it.
They would climb on his lap and hug him.
Oh yeah yeah yeah.
It was uh, it’s you have to see it to believe it.
Yeah yeah.
I remember going in when we went in when I think it was for one night at The Rusty Nail Tavern there or something for dinner.
George was the last one.
I was it last one in because he’s signing an autograph autographs and on the hot Saturday, as you saw there, I said this when I came back to people.
This is Canadians have to be there.
It cost me hundreds, that’s right lining up to get his autograph from photograph and he took time to talk to everyone.
You know you know I was so lucky to spend so much time with them.
Uh.
You know in Canada and other places, but the reaction was always the same.
Whether we were in Florida and New York.
You know Minnesota La Seattle uh it was, you know it was just.
It was mind-boggling how popular he was and yet the same and the same thing would happen in Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Regina, but in Toronto yeah, not so much.
No it.
He never got his.
We talked about it.
No, he was treated horrifically by the local newspapers, guys, like guys, I know, Danelle and and Jim Coleman yeah.
You know, total total totally moronic and attacking him offers ring skills as a person.
Yeah yeah, that’s! What’S going to do with boxing yeah, and I I um Merv McKenzie should have actually had to fight Mike Tyson for what he did to George, yes, not allowing the the uh Ali fight to be called the world title fight everywhere else on this Earth everywhere else.
In the planet yeah yeah except here – and what did George say to you about that? Oh you mean to this day.
I mean he it.
It really bothered him that you know if he had won that fight.
He would have been heavyweight champion everywhere in the world except his hometown, because because Mackenzie, you know and and all the all this you know, all his ilk on the commission were were so locked in with the WBA that they, you know, they said no.
We can’t we can’t sanction this as a world title fight and you know, and it just it broke George’s heart and today you know you look at the program even from that fight, which is very you know, a rare artifact in itself, but it you know it’s.
It’S Muhammad Ali, the people’s Champion versus George chevello, the heavyweight Showdown.
You know, yeah, that’s unbelievable, and you know when people would complain about Ken Hayashi and for good reason.
The boxing former Ontario athletic commissioner.
So you can say what you want, but he was Einstein compared to move McKenzie.
Oh absolutely, absolutely, and we mentioned, I think it was the Roy McNeely fight in Toronto, where people showed up and the gardens was locked because he had an okay to print him.
He figured out okay, the printing of tickets, right, it forgot the name referees for the fights forgot forgot to have doctors there, judges yeah.
I mean this was a terrible commissioner, and we mentioned how in Sports Illustrated, he used the n-word when describing WBA, and so did so many other people.
Oh exactly and you know, and it’s interesting because if you go back and you look at the at the U.
S press coverage, particularly around that fight, um and and even even newspaper guys from the U.
S from New York, Dave Anderson, one of them one of the more Vocal really really chastised the Toronto press, the Toronto media and the Toronto commission for how how the how absurd it was that the way they treated George yeah and this these were Americans.
You know coming in from Florida and Chicago and Miami, and Detroit saying you know you know what do you guys a bunch of little tin Gods? You know, I don’t know if it was Anderson or Robert lipsite uh Raven and you would know better than me, but when Terrell came and he had Bernie Glickman the mob killer in his Corner yeah and one of the New York writers wrote.
I guess I I guess I didn’t go to school long enough, I guess in Canada, if you work for the mafia and you murder, people uh, they allow you in yeah yeah.
I think that was left side yeah yeah yeah.
He said this was a well-known mob.
Yeah sure absolutely come on in yeah and you know the way he threatened Irv and other people and sure yeah.
I I know you won’t remember.
You may not remember this, but I remember what you told me uh.
You told me when I was with you at the hall of fame.
You said: watch the terrorist battle fight and count the fouls count, how many times Ernie thousand yeah.
You said to me when you get to 100 you’ll, probably stop counting and unbelievable yeah stuff.
All the fouls, absolutely yeah head, butting elbowing yeah, wiping the the laces yeah over and over and then over and over again and Terrell had that had had the goal to call Ali a dirty fighter, yeah and not so much as one warning yeah yeah I mean Unbelievable and George turned to the reference that he’s thumbing me and George never complained.
That’S right! You hit me a lot.
What happens I’ll hit you low back, but you don’t find a guy you’re taking away his career exactly exactly yeah yeah.
How long have you known? George foreign person on June, the 12th 1986, which was three days before the first, the Whittle acousta fight in Edmonton and George, was at the time.
Training and managing razor ruddock and uh product was the number two ranked Contender behind lekusa for the witch or behind the witch for the Christmas title um.
So they were coming in as guests of Willie DeWitt Enterprises to you know, hype the next fight, because everybody everybody you know had decided that the wind was gon na was gon na win.
They didn’t, they didn’t count on Kenny, giving them a good fight which he did but um.
So I uh I I still remember um.
They they booked the promoters that booked a room for George and razor at the at the Edmonton Inn.
So they were supposed to get in about nine o’clock at night, so I went out there.
I went out to the hotel about eight o’clock and sat in the bar for a couple hours and no show no show no show so finally about 11 30.
.
You know the the lobby is almost empty and you know the places the bars winding down.
I think it was a Thursday night and uh in comes, you know through the front door, uh George comes through and and razor and they’ve got nobody else with them and and uh they got their bags and everything and I walked over and I introduced myself and Because I talked to George a couple of days before on the phone and said that you know I’d I’d like to I’d like to sit down with him and raise her and do a real, in-depth thing on on razor.
And he said.
Oh, he had a great great, oh so I introduced myself and so thank God said I you know and it’s been a long day long flight and all they all they gave us on the plane was peanuts.
So so uh, it’s almost midnight.
So I said: well, you know we still got time.
We can get something to eat.
If you want it’s only I’m starving, I’m starving razor wanted to go to sleep.
So razor goes up to the room me and George go out to a a restaurant that I knew in Edmonton that was still going to be open uh.
We sat until three o’clock in the morning just talking and uh.
Finally, the restaurant owner asked us to to go only after George had signed menus and napkins there for all for all the staff.
But I drove him back to the hotel and made arrangements to uh to to meet them.
The next afternoon for lunch and the interview and uh uh when I showed up the next day, uh razor was very uh standoffish.
That’S the way it is yeah, yeah and uh, and he to be honest.
He wasn’t you know he wasn’t.
He wasn’t a scintillating subject to to interview, but uh, but George, you know, never drops the ball, you just you know he just he just sort of asked him and then try and stay with him and uh.
We just hit it off right away and uh after the fight um.
You know it looked like it was going to be Willy’s.
First title defense was going to be against Razer; it never happened but uh after the fight uh uh George said you know we’re gon na stay in touch and you know whatever’s happening with Razer.
I want you to be the first one to know blah blah blah and uh.
After that I mean we talked we used to talk, you know we initially were talking two three times a week and then uh you know.
Subsequently, I you know for different assignments.
I’D be in Toronto or he’d be coming out west and we’d always hook up and uh uh.
You know about a year later uh.
He was no longer with erotic, but he was coming out to uh Edmondson for for a special promotion for a jewelry for a jewelry store and uh uh.
He said uh, you know, I don’t know where they got me staying and I said well.
Why don’t you just you know? Why don’t you just stay stay in my place, you know my wife and my son at the time was like three, so he ended up staying.
He was supposed to stay for two days.
He ended up staying for a week, which was just fantastic and that’s when we first started.
You know when I first approached the subject of writing a book.
You know with them one day and he said yeah.
He says you know yeah.
He said a lot of people have asked me about that.
He says I don’t know.
I don’t know if, when the time’s right, he said well, we’ll talk about it and uh.
So I didn’t you know, I didn’t uh didn’t push him on it for for years, but we always stayed close and uh.
In 1989 I uh I was training and and managing Danny stonewalker, the Canadian light heavyweight champion and uh when he was.
He became the first indigenous Canadian and the first albertan to fight for a world championship when he fought Michael Moore in Pittsburgh, for the WBO live heavyweight title, and so I you know as soon as we got that fight, I Fallen George right away and said you Got to come to Pittsburgh and work the corner with me, so so that was great.
He without you know without hesitation he agreed and he came down to Pittsburgh.
We had a great time.
We went up staying there for about a week after the fight and uh.
We got along so well in the corner that he said you know he was working with Jimmy gratson and a few other fighters in Toronto.
He said when I got fights out west for these guys.
This is, you know, we’ll uh, we’ll we’ll be we’ll be hooking up again in the corner, so that was uh.
That was great.
So we ended up.
We ended up working, probably at a dozen or 15 16 fights together and the book in itself I mean yeah yeah.
He was great yeah you’ve been exceptionally close with him for a very long time.
I don’t know if anyone closer than you.
Well, you know it’s uh.
It’S to me.
It’S a it’s just! It’S almost uh, unbelievable because he was my family.
It was my.
He was fine.
He was my other than I had two Heroes.
Two sports Heroes.
Always you know just a young kid.
One was Frank muhamlich and the other was George, two croatians wow and uh.
You know I became I remembered distinctly when I became a chevello fan.
It was January of 1964 when he fought Zoro Foley on the Friday Night Fights and I remember, being mesmerized when Don Dunphy was doing the introduction.
You know ahead of the fight and he was talking.
You know he was talking about this young Canadian kid.
You know Canadian champion who uh you know who was, who was? You know a throwback to Rocky Marciano and you know great things were expected of him and he was still you know.
He was still pretty inexperienced at the time and Zoro Foley was you know one of the one of the real slick, old, Savvy veterans in the heavyweight division.
At the time they fought in Cleveland fully won the 10 round decision, but I remember thinking you know how cool it was that this was a Canadian that I could identify with and the crowd just went nuts over them and and dump feeding his commentaries.
I remember he said you watched George chevello he’ll, never take a step backwards and that you know that resonated with me and sure enough.
It was uh.
You know it was sort of the beginning of of uh of my uh, my my my hero, worship of them.
I guess and then uh to get a chance to not only meet him uh professionally but to become you know very close personally and and and do the book with them.
Was you know to me it’s uh, it’s still unbelievable, you know is.
I always thought the you would know better than me: Doug Jones fight, because ungerman didn’t want him to fight Jones.
Yeah George said I’m going to destroy him.
That’S right.
Jones was ranked number four in the world at the time and uh.
You know he he’d uh.
He lost a very close decision to to collect Cassius Clay at the time um, but uh he was.
He was a slick slick fighter and very popular in New York and uh yeah.
George George knew it and against everybody you know against everybody’s.
You know recommendation he uh.
He took the fight and uh, you know he ended up knocking out Jones in the 11th around and uh it was a, it was a.
It was a it was until until the Quarry fight I’d say it was his best Victory again.
Now because he I don’t think he carried Jones, but I think he was wanted to prove something to ungerman because he kept battering Jones.
Oh yeah yeah, it’s not him out already, but it was like yeah yeah and you know, and of course afterwards you know.
Hungerman was you know, oh yeah, we knew we had it right from the start.
You know I was, but that was her.
You know yeah and Jones was never the same again.
No, no, no, my favorite picture of the Hall of Fame is the one of George walking to his Corner.
Looking over his shoulder – and there was Jones and flight following things: first in the campus, yeah yeah, classic yeah and – and I mean the Patterson fight Angela Dundee said Addison – is a former Champion he’s from New York they’re not going to give it to George.
Even if George knocked him out they’re not exactly exactly exactly and you know, uh Patterson was the guy that collapsed in his shower right after the fight.
You know right uh and Dave Anderson from the from the New York Times was the only one who mentioned that uh.
You know the Toronto Toronto media guys.
Oh you know: Chevella was in over his head blah blah blah Anderson to go back and read his stories in the New York Times about that fight.
You’D think it was a totally different uh, a totally different fight that he was watching.
Um George said he didn’t want to go fit.
He wouldn’t sign, Paterson, wouldn’t sell, that’s right, 15 rounds right, that’s right and, and he wanted no part of a rematch yeah yeah yeah, because if it goes one more round, Patterson doesn’t make it out.
At the end of the 10th Patterson walks to the wrong corner, he had no idea where he was yeah yeah.
I asked George did about of you that Zach Clayton said chevalio or Chevalier yeah.
He said, to be honest, I wasn’t even listening right.
I was just looking at Floyd thinking, I’m going to destroy you.
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah Zach had a had a talent for butchering names.
Yeah I mean he beat Patterson because, as he saw, Pat himself was never the same, clapped and went to the hospital.
That’S right! That’S right: yeah and those were body punches, yep yep, oh nobody, no heavyweight in the 60s hit to the body like George, nobody yeah ever yeah yeah, the only one I could compare to George’s body punch would be Tony Zale, the middle lady yeah yeah.
That would be it, but no one in heavy weight, good comparison, yeah, yeah and um.
You mentioned Jerry Corey Corey, said before the court, the shootout fight, no one’s ever laid me out for ten.
That’S right and George just caught him with that shot and banged yeah.
How many times did he go down from that punch twice or three times twice twice he went down, got up, went down again and then and then when he was on his knee and he got counted out uh and of course he went wild after that.
But uh uh, you know Zach gave him every every opportunity.
It was a slow count, uh and uh.
You know, George has a great line afterwards.
Well, you know because Corey had said well, you know I didn’t understand the count and George said.
Well, you know, if you don’t understand nine from ten, then it must have been a pretty good punch and that’s fantastic and and Mike Quarry who was at ringside um.
He he went to George’s, dress, room afterwards and said yeah.
It was yeah.
There’S no way.
Jerry was going to get up so yeah, it’s funny because um at the hall of fame, when your aunt somebody was mentioning that and Angela looked at the guy and said before his knees were on the ground.
When the referee said 10.
, that’s a knockout and the story yep exactly no matter who you cheer for where you’re from yeah yeah the rules.
Don’T change! That’S right! That’S right! You know you mentioned Mike.
I this is off topic, but I thought Bob Foster killed him when he knocked him out.
Yeah yeah yeah because he didn’t move for a good 10 15 minutes, oh yeah and then and then there was a little Twitch in his foot like uh Johansson yeah yeah, yeah um.
But you know when you mentioned that if there’s an online from we were talking talking or it’s such a great sense of humor calling Muhammad cautious clay and then when he first met him his arms, he was so skinny.
He said: yeah yeah.
No, you see he’s very glib and very very funny and uh.
You know it’s, you know.
Well, you know from from Angelo uh, you know he George was was never never shy about uh about expressing uh.
You know expressing his opinion in a humorous way when it came to to opponents you.
You know he was never never mean-spirited, but but uh.
You know he.
He had a way of phrasing things that uh uh, you know made it very memorable when he fought Calvin Kelvin uh, can’t think of his last name in Hull, Quebec, Calvin, Butler and Hall Quebec in.
I think it was 68.
and uh uh he he he knocked him out in three rounds, but but the the the Canadian press reporter asked him afterwards.
You know you know it looked like you were taking your time and George said.
Well, you know punching him was like you know, punching a bowl of pudding because you know he had a.
He had a pretty thick girth, but he said uh.
You know when you, when you’re enjoying pudding.
You want to take your time so yeah, that’s very funny.
Yeah, when I I um, I mean he made me, laugh a lot of times: um uh.
There was a guy named Rich Richard koletsky, who has this big Shrine to Ali and I think he might have written a small something to go with it.
So he said, I Met George, I mean, as you know, George she was at everybody, he’s met so many people.
How can you remember the millions of people? You met yeah yeah, but this guy said something and he’s, and it was in Yiddish and George said.
I showed him the email and he said I don’t remember.
Is it really because I understand the Yiddish yeah? I just don’t remember the guy yeah yeah yeah yeah, so he told me the story once in the 50s late 50.
I told you this last night, so my uncle Dr David Eisen uh was gave him his first physical for his first professional fight and at his office on.
I think it was, but I know or whatever and and the room was full of like 20 women patience and when George walked out in his underwear.
He was like an Adonis.
He steps on his scale and the women swooned.
They are all because they just couldn’t believe how gorgeous he was.
Yeah yeah, you know, and he was the big bright hope of all boxing absolutely yeah.
This was a well-spoken educated gorgeous guy.
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