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EPISODE: Episode 1
Join us for an enlightening episode of Ring Talk with Lou Eisen as we sit down with the renowned author Christian Giudice. An American boxing writer and editor, Christian Giudice has made a significant mark in the world of sports biographies. His latest work, “Beloved Warrior: The Rise and Fall of Alexis Arguello,” is a testament to his dedication to preserving the stories of boxing legends.
In this episode, we’ll delve into the captivating life journey of Alexis Arguello, a beloved figure in the world of boxing. From his meteoric rise to his complex legacy, Christian Giudice’s in-depth research and storytelling prowess provide a new perspective on this iconic fighter.
Christian Giudice’s influence goes beyond the written word. His book “Hands of Stone” served as the foundation for the biopic film of the same name, shedding light on the life of Roberto Durán. With a background rooted in Haddonfield, New Jersey, Giudice’s passion for boxing has taken him on a journey that resonates with enthusiasts worldwide.
Whether you’re a boxing aficionado or a lover of captivating stories, this episode promises to offer insights into the world of sports biographies and the legacy of Alexis Arguello. Don’t miss this opportunity to be inspired by Christian Giudice’s dedication to preserving the history of boxing legends.
Join us on Ring Talk with Lou Eisen this Sunday. Like, comment, and share this episode to honor the stories that shape the world of boxing.
Transcribed
[, Music, ] foreign [, Music, ] boxing historian and author, and we have a special show today on ring talk.
We have one of my favorite authors in the world uh Christian Judah day, Judah J excuse me and I apologize if I did not pronounce that correctly.
Um we want to talk about his wonderful book.
He has a lot of wonderful books.
You got to get his book on Wilfredo Gomez and the one hands of stone on Roberto Duran, but this one touched my heart beloved Warrior on on um.
The Magnificent Alexis argoyo uh you’d have to say Argo is one of the greatest all-time Fighters that ever lived down profound, but also in the lighter weights.
I would say it’s Duran and Arguello and Gomez the three people that Christians captured better than anyone else on the planet and he’s just a wonderful person and it’s an honor and a privilege to have him here.
Please welcome to random talk Christian Judah Lou.
Thank you.
So much for having me on the show today.
Thank you.
It’S a great pleasure pleasure.
It’S a place that my name correctly.
Oh okay, thank you.
I go through the same thing with my name Eisen, so I just say to people even in Canada.
Do you know, President Eisenhower? Yes? Well, it’s the same name without the Howard.
These people just don’t get it so uh you’re.
What made you want to write a book on on such a great character as Alexis Arguello? Well, when I was growing up, I think the I haven’t had two two really uh two really strong affinities for uh, Roberto, Duran and Alexis Arguello.
I think um before I even started writing about boxing.
You know those are two guys that stood out to me.
Um.
You know I was a little bit younger at the time you know to see them in their Prime, but as I got older, I got to see their fights and really understood what they stood for in the ring.
So after I wrote the book on Roberto Duran, I figured the next.
You know the next best uh fighter to approach would be Alexis Arguello and I just loved everything about Arguello there.
You know it’s hard, not to I mean there’s.
Some Fighters are just hard not to like, even if they’re, not your your favorite fighter, they’re they’re, not a guy who really uh.
You know, epitomizes the style that you like, but but Arguello.
There were just so many things that made him likable and refreshing as a person um, and we talked about earlier, accessible, uh and and then you watch him in the ring and it was pure.
You know Beauty watching him fight, you know, fight in, and the the layers too and Aguero fight was was much different than than what we what you saw with the guy like Roberto Duran, and so for me.
I I really that that was the second guy who I really wanted to uh write about.
I mean and – and I mean I got lucky in being able to write about him, but you know when I, when I think about great Latin Fighters.
Um Arguello and Duran are up there, so I felt that I really uh really wanted to take that next step with uh argue at the time you know with.
If the Mount Rushmore of the great Latin Fighters well, you’d have to have more than four faces, but certainly Aguayo Duran Wilfredo Gomez, Salvador Sanchez, but the list is analyst Arguello is like almost like Andre Matisse in the ring.
He was a real artist and there was no wasted moves.
It was poetry, emotion, he was a privilege to watch and I I always felt when I saw him that when the fight was over, that the announcement should say you know what he was even more brilliant than we thought you guys got to chip in some more Money, because this guy was was super now he he grew up in Nicaragua right in Managua.
Yes, and was it relatively peaceful politically, where, when he grew up uh when he, when he grew up um? No, I mean no.
I mean this was this: was when uh, when he was growing up, I think um.
It was a lot more peaceful than than uh than later on, but right um, you know he.
He was someone who I mean he.
He grew up in a difficult uh.
Certainly a difficult upbringing, but you know not like someone you know not like uh.
I couldn’t compare it to the way.
Duran grew up but um.
You know he uh.
He definitely had a uh um.
You know.
Early childhood was was difficult, but I think um, the the political situation really started to get um.
You know it’s really starting to get severe as as he got older, um with with uh with you know, everything that was happening in in Managua at the time did um.
I know when he was young when he was 17.
I think he moved to Toronto.
Actually, for a short time, yeah that was his uh, I guess his dad sent him there and um.
That was a big uh.
You know that opened his eyes to the to the world um, he kind of called it his time.
Um.
You know almost like a hippie time.
He called it in in his life and um yeah.
He was uh, you know sent to Toronto and uh, and then he came back and um.
He eventually started his boxing career, but yeah.
That was.
That was something very unusual to uh to write about it’s just uh.
You know sort of just this little.
You know his dad sent him there to work and um and uh.
You know he learned it was uh for him.
It was like an eye-opening experience to see you know to be outside of Managua.
I mean it would be for any any young boy.
Come you know, making that uh transition, but um.
I think when, when he came back um, he eventually, you know, moved moved to boxing told his dad daddy wanted to go to the gym, but um.
That was a very uh unique situation for for a young young boy from managa yeah.
I I can’t imagine, because I know people coming from smaller Canadian provinces like Prince Edward Island when they come to Toronto.
They can’t believe how big it is and then, when torontonians go to New York, they their their minds get blown.
We thought we thought.
Toronto was big; this is a million it’s bigger and quicker so coming from Managua.
How did Alexis gravitate toward boxing when yeah um? You know during that time, when um, when Alexis uh started out um, you know it was actually uh.
You know he.
He was like pleading with his his father.
You know to take me to the gym I want to.
I want to go to the uh to the gym and um.
You know he.
He went there and um.
He just started uh.
He started to kind of see himself in the in the ring and and um and as he as he started, to make the uh the transition to boxing um.
He also started to get connected with a lot of the um, the older Fighters um.
I think it was um what Edward um Mojica at the time who, who became a mentor to him – and you know what he what he understood about about uh boxing is that I mean how green he was at the time you know.
Eventually, I don’t want to jump ahead, but I mean when he got together and he eventually started to become managed by Eduardo uh, Roman um.
He started to recognize that um that he was going to need more than what he was getting in Managua to really get that that boxing education uh, that he truly needed and um.
But but I think like once he started to go to the gym started to uh uh started to spar um.
It was just something that that you know he really uh started to get this connection with.
You know one thing he had the very few boxers ever have had uh.
Only the great really great ones is patience.
He had such patience in the ring and he was so calm – was that just developed for boxing or was that part of his natural character as a person? You know, I think that was, I think, that’s something that that spawned out of um the experience in in boxing, and I think it was something that, as as you know, I I think he learned a lot of you know those skills, those kind of those skills Patients um being calm from Eduardo Roman um when he was when he was younger um.
You know Roman came into his life and started to you know he.
He started to introduce him to U.
S history and give him books and and um and introduce him to aspects of his life.
You know away from boxing away from you know to understand as if to say you know I care about you as a person all right and then I and then secondary.
I care about you.
You know your boxing career and I think one of the things with with um.
You know we talk about patience, uh Roman was a very calm person, not not one to um.
You know to uh to Rage or or um you know or to get um Amplified in in his actions, and you know I I don’t know if that’s something that that he learned from Roman but certainly like you said, as he got older um, sometimes you’d watch Him fight you’re like okay.
When is he going to uh? You know, step um.
You know the Alexis Arguello that we expect him to be, but I I think there’s you know something that um was definitely.
He took um from Roman as far as demeanor and how he carried himself um, but then again he also was very patient and calm in his uh.
You know his personal life, so I think those two things uh played a role.
I I know that uh.
I remember watching him fight.
Oh, I remember watching him fight Oliver’s.
That was a brutal fight, but I I and Oliver’s was one of the all-time great talk about Mount Rushmore, manly champions of all time.
Now Alexis took him apart.
I mean he stood there toe to Joe and used that reach, but the fight, I remember, was way later.
Billy Costello and I think Victor Valley, Costello’s manager, trainer really upset Alexis and he never saw that uh in the rain.
By saying his rats were illegal, and I thought you know if there’s one honest boxer in all of boxing history: it’s Alexis Arguello.
He would never do that to someone and I just remembered the look on his face and he was getting beat for a bit, but he was so calm and going back to his Corner after one of the rounds he said to the his trainer he’s making a Mistake I’ll get him now and he got him yeah.
He was um.
You know that he talked about that uh being you know, allowing anger to um to take over um as an option.
That was the only time he he ever well again against Limon.
He also allowed uh.
He also got angry but um.
You know it was a uh.
It was very unusual to see Alexis in in that place of of um anger and allowing uh rage to take over.
You know at that point in his career.
It was also the sense of um, you know, here’s a guy who was not not feeling too comfortable outside of the ring, and I wonder if that also played a role.
Not not very you know the stability that that he wanted in his life outside the ring.
Wasn’T there and – and you know it it’s – it makes sense that a lot of his fights earlier he never allowed.
You know those, you know those feelings of Rage to enter into who he was um as as a fighter, but you know that was a a uh when you, when you talk about um, Alexis and and you you know, you think about him young and then you Think about him, the older Alexis.
I mean you definitely I I want to say you see a difference in every fighter, but there was definitely this this disconnect between who he was later and who he was earlier and um um.
I I maybe disconnect, isn’t the the best word for it, but um, like you, said against Costello.
It was um.
It was something that that he let disrupt him that you know that decades earlier he would have just pushed forward and say the BR.
You know bring on the fight and and not allow him to to shape shape, how he, how he approached the fight right, because I remember after the fight he said, I’ve been doing this for over 30 years.
I would never cheat on another man because he would hate his life and that’s not what the Sport’s about, and I remember Ray ourselves saying: boxing’s controlled Fury.
He said that’s why Ali likes to get his opponents angry, because when you’re angry, you don’t fight well, so it was interesting uh to see that what was the victory or very early on over kid Pam Valley.
It was that the or pandeli was that the turning point in his young career um.
I don’t know if that was the the turning point in his young career um.
You know, I I don’t think his early fights uh really include.
I I don’t think until he fought.
I think the turning point is in his early career.
To be honest, is it was the fight with Marcel because um, because and I and I say that just because you know um at that stage, he recognized in that fight.
How how much development he needed or and how, how much, how much maturity he lacked in the ring um because uh, you know the uh, the panamanians at that time were were a little little hesitant to um.
I I forget who it was in Panama.
You know thought thought Alexis was a little too green um for for Marcel and um.
So I think that was a turning point as if to say you know what I know a lot about this sport, but certainly not enough and um and Marcel could do that too.
I mean he was that good of a fighter I mean, I I’m not saying that that you know you know Marcel.
You know, maybe not everybody knows about Ernesto Marcel, but he was a heck of Fighter um.
So so he learned a lot.
I think um, like he’s, like you said you know, maybe it was an earlier fight, but I I always pinpointed the Marcel fight as as that kind of the the that wake-up call to Alexis um.
If he was going to uh.
You know uh Challenge and and become the great fighter that he needed to be and see he took it up levels after the Marcel fight and Marcellus.
He said world champion.
He took it up levels.
He saw what he needed to do and after that he was Untouchable, Alexis yeah, it was just a just a I mean, you know, and I think I think all all great Fighters go through that transition moment, um that that moment where they recognize, I I don’t Know if it’s in it’s, you know they do it in in such a big fight, as as we saw with uh Marcel, you know, um, I I you know, I wrote a book on on Camacho and um.
You know I I don’t think Camacho had that same moment, um um, that that you know that Alexis, but certain Fighters need that that moment at that point in their lives and um, you know it’s it’s it.
It gives you a good measuring stick, a good barometer for who you are um when you get an early fight against uh.
You know in your in your career against uh against a guy as good as Marcel speed, power.
Um, you know movement I mean Marcel.
Had everything and – and I think that um you know it was – it was something that that Alexis needed this you know almost brings us to the fight last night, with Liam Smith and and um uh, Chris Eubanks Junior uh, Eubanks Junior’s trainer, it’s bomac Brian McIntyre, trained.
Terence Crawford – and he said something that I heard Charlie Goldman, say I’ve heard of Charlie Goldman, saying Angela Dundee told me that you never mess with the Fighter’s actual natural style.
You just enhance it so before the fight they said to him.
What, if you added to Chris eubank’s style, he said nothing, I told them to forget everything else.
The other guys taught him just be yourself.
Just move your feet.
He said it’s all on the feet: keep the feet moving, keep the jab going and it just seemed when you saw Alexis in the ring.
He was always in motion always giving angles defeat.
We’Re always moving his punches look slow, but they certainly weren’t to the guy that was lying on the canvas.
I mean that right hand was devastating.
Like you said earlier, when you’d watch him after a couple runs, you think when’s he going to throw the right hand and then Bang and the other guy would drop.
Um yeah was Oliveira’s, I think was – was any favored against airguello in their fight, in Los Angeles, and that went 13 Rounds.
But agoya was magnificent.
He was practically flawless, yeah and, like you said, like you said when you have a fighter now at that stage I think there’s a little bit more.
You know a little bit more focus on on who he was going to become, and I think there was a little bit more attention to what what the trainer was he switched off and on between um uh trainers back then uh um a little bit more frequently And um, so I think there’s a little bit more guidance about.
You know like all those things that you just talked about, like you know the the movement um, you know um being judicious with your punches.
You know, you know he’d like to say it’s.
It’S! It’S not you know it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s! You know where you know it’s when you when you decide to attack, not necessarily you know the um.
You know when you think about power.
It’S always about the time.
You know the timing, it’s a timing aspect.
So I think um at that stage early on you know it was like, like you said it’s like you know, you start, you know you give you give them information, you start giving them advice and then you know Alexis um, I’m sure it didn’t take too many Fights for them to you know to recognize that you know at some stage in his career is pretty much training himself, but I mean I think, um.
You know the movement, the angles um, you know, like you said, not everybody thought he had great speed, but it you know, I mean some of the you know.
Like you said his his opponents probably would disagree with that.
But uh you know he was.
He was so accurate um that that I I don’t know if he need you know.
Certainly he wasn’t as fast as some of the you know, some of the other um.
You know his other his peers during that time, but he wasn’t, he wasn’t slow, I mean so so, but but he had all those attributes and um attributes that when you watch you know you, you you’re watching that fight and you’re learning with him.
It’S it’s like you know, it’s like you’re, gaining something as you watch a fighter and that that’s something neat to uh to see.
As as a fan.
I I heard, I don’t know if it was Gail Clancy or someone said I.
I wonder if you’d agree with this there’s a difference.
He said between speed and quickness.
He said two fighters standing side by side, throwing punches one may be quicker, he said, but or maybe faster.
He said, quickness is different than speed.
Quickness is seeing the opening as it’s developing and getting there first, even if the fighter you’re fighting has faster hands and Alexis certainly had that.
I mean when, when a guy made a mistake against him, they were done abruptly.
You know Clancy um Bill, Clancy, uh, really alleged um made it.
That’S a that’s a really great point.
I think some people you know when when they see guys with fast hands, they automatically think they’re they’re making decisions in a quick fashion.
And, and sometimes you know when, when you know when you don’t, you know, Alexis did a great job of Shifting up the speeds of his punches.
I mean he, you know sometimes he’d, throw that range finder.
You know jab for a while and then he’d bang and then and then he’d start whipping it um as more of a you know, as more of like a fierce punch than just a a jab, but there’s definitely that difference between quickness and and speed and um.
You know when you think about guys with great speed, um and and who are also quick.
They have both that they have that that Dynamic, where you know like you just said it’s it’s the idea of the instinctual quickness right and then they they they’re blessed with speed.
It’S like those two things are working, so you know we know we certainly have seen some.
I mean when you think about a guy.
Like Mildred Taylor, I mean the speed that meldrick Taylor had was just astounding um, but but when it’s you know when he’s just left and he’s hurt, and he just has his speed – he’s not doing anything but, like you said when he’s when he’s you know, he’s Moving and he has that those instincts and and he’s and he’s making decisions in a quick, you know you know, minuscule fashion.
I think it adds it.
You know a depth to his.
You know who he is as a fighter.
It Taylor and Chavez almost like uh uh, Lumberjack, six foot, nine fighting a a grizzly bear Lumberjack’s quicker, but the Bears punches.
Javas’S punches didn’t get as many, but he was doing much more damage.
Much much more damage than than Taylor was, and I aguel did so much damage with every shot, and I love how you mentioned the fact that he would change his speed like a pitcher.
So you don’t know what really to to prepare for what kind would the speed or, if he’s gon, na double jab, keep double jabbing or just throw one jab and then come over with the right hand, I mean he changed it up.
He was such a smart fighter, I mean he showed that your brain is probably your most potent weapon and in so many fights I mean the the the the escalera fight.
I mean he was the Jim watt fight.
He just you know it’s gon na.
I don’t know how to describe a gym, what fight using technology as a verb, but he out text him I mean he was his and Watt was a really good fighter, but Alexis just outsmart him throughout the whole fight like he said, he’s watching it he’s taking It all in like a computer, and then it’s mine, saying this – is what we’re going to do now and he does it yeah and that that was uh.
You know that that was what made him um.
I I think when you, when you look at you, know some of his uh.
His knock is his late round.
Knockouts um.
You see that you know, especially with a 15 round fight.
He knew that this was a journey and – and you know so, you know I – I don’t think Fighters um recognize that that you know I don’t think Fighters could fight.
I don’t think any Fighters could fight the way Alexis fought his fight and anymore um.
It’S just.
It’S just it was a different uh time um.
He had, he felt he had that space and that time to to wait and to wait and to wait and and then attack, um and um and – and you know – let’s be honest – it didn’t always entirely work for him.
Um you know um, but but for the most part um.
If you look at his Great Performances, you know he was a guy who was who was just you know, um.
You know that that right hand I mean when, when he starts to land that right hand, you just you saw a guy who was like who was indestructible, I mean fabulous, you know um uh, you know with that right hand, but it was.
It was when he threw it it.
He was.
He was punching through his opponents and – and you know I just don’t see that level – you see great punchers nowadays I mean there are definitely some great punchers out there um and but but I I don’t, I don’t see guys who who throw that right hand like That and it’s just uh it was uh, something that was um.
It was mesmerizing, as you know, Lou yeah, yeah absolutely, and you think I always think guys like Charlie Goldman and Ray ourselves would have just cried, enjoy watching Alexis fight, because I know when he knocked out um Oliveira’s, my my friend, who you’ve heard of obviously art Haffey was there and in the dressing with that with um Reuben after and just Reuben said, I never been hit like that.
No one ever hit me with that kind of power.
That was unbelievable and he said I hit him my best shots and he just walked through him.
He didn’t blink.
His head didn’t go back, he ain’t even shrunk.
He just took him and kept coming.
He said like I was just you know yawning at him.
He said he was indestructible and he took his time.
He sculpted a masterpiece rather than just the way things are so quick in society today, like he said he took his time like like he was like a Saison or Gauguin or Chagall.
He took his time and he crafted a masterpiece that us at home and those in the audience would remember forever.
You know, I think you know.
Nowadays, you have uh, you have great Fighters out there, um um, who are no doubt it would be great in any any time period.
But I just like the way – I I don’t know too many fighters who um who made that the same type of development from you know that uh that Arguello did from the from the from the time he started to the time he won his.
You know that first title um to the end of his career.
It just felt like he was building something like each fight.
You know you’re you’re, seeing something a little bit different with each uh with with each performance and um.
I don’t you know, I don’t always not every great fighter does that I mean some great Fighters, you know um, you know start to fade away, um quicker than others or some great Fighters.
You recognize they have.
They have maybe one one last great fight, um that they uh they can.
You know they can evoke, but you know Alexis um.
You know he.
You know, you see him when he’s young you’re so thin and you know so so thin and then growing into 135.
It’S like wow um, you know this is this is a uh.
This is a guy who knew exactly what he wanted to be at a certain you know with which, with each stage of his career, you know he was he.
He knew that this is.
This is where I want to be and then achieved it um and and um, and he made a I’m paraphrasing everybody made a you know.
He said something um, no, no one could have lived my life the way I lived it and – and I and I I see that – and I see that through um the the way he uh he conducted his career good, to see me specifically by that that no One could have taken the chances he took in moving up in weight and go through those battles on in the ring while facing battles outside the ring.
I I think uh, I think that’s what he was referring to at the time about the um.
You know the the the fact of um that at some point you know you know in his career he was eventually exiled from from his homeland and and still had to create a life for himself.
When most people would have you know um, you know completely um been devastated, um and and not not been able to move forward.
You know past that that sad reality that you know uh it.
We don’t see that with many fighters where at some point in their career, that they can’t go home and um and Alexis faced that uh, but he faced it with dignity and Grace and and and a sense of um Integrity that that he had showed.
I mean you said that you know: was he a guy who was calm now now um, you know, was he calm? Was he patient? He was in his life, but you know, and and as angry as he was um the fact that you know of how they treated him um, he still moved forward.
We still continued with his career um.
He still stayed focused and um.
Sometimes it’s hard to uh.
You know not not many people remember that part of Alexis yeah I mean that would destroy anyone except a world champion.
Like him, I mean what other fighters in history or athletes could make that claim Jack Johnson, but he skipped bail and and Ali when he was, you know, went and fought in Europe for a while.
But I there was no one like Alexis and I think one of the great things many great things about your book is, I mean I, I really cried at the end because I missed him, you know I didn’t want.
No one was ready when he went.
He still wanted him and and did Alexis, did he know what he meant to people did he know how important he was not just people at the Boxing Hall of Fame but to millions of fans around the world.
I I to be honest, Lou.
I think he did, I think he understood um.
You know the uh, the.
I think he had a really good understanding of of kind of what he stood for and especially um.
You know later in his life when, when um, you know he was in a political.
You know uh role and it was an ambassador and and um.
You know he was.
He was away from boxing and still was you know, uh this icon to so many people.
I I think it would be hard to say that he didn’t understand.
You know the stature um and and what he um, what what he meant to people, but you know both in the United States and and um and Nicaragua uh.
It was something that I think he also took pride in um that you know a man of the people.
I think I think that that you know that that title of a man of the people, not you know we called him.
You know so many people looked at him as the gentleman of the ring, but I think he was he more embraced.
The idea of of someone a man of the people in the sense that he was he he was the humble guy um.
You know who who lived his life in in a way that, as as uh as High um, you know the peak that he reached in the Pinnacle he reached in the boxing ring outside of the Ring.
He wasn’t um, he he, he never really changed.
Who he was and um and when he was, you know uh as a political figure and when he was able to have some influence and and make some changes within Managua.
I think that only you know added to his his legacy.
I I remember going to uh see him spoke before we went on there.
I I at the hall of fame and I saw him from a distance and he he just he looked like a movie star from the 1930s or 40s.
I mean with the beautiful hat.
The beautiful crisp women’s suit, it was a hot day.
Everyone was sweating, not Alexis and, as I said to you before, George ran to hug him so that nino benvenuti Angela went over and they kissed each other and Gail Clancy went over and they kissed each other.
Everyone was just grabbing him and kissing him and he stood for hours hours outside signing autographs for for everyone, but a lot for children and he talked to every one of them.
You know a lot of guys go there and they go here.
You go here.
You go but he would say: what’s your name where’d you go to school.
What’S your favorite subject, there was no one like that.
That I mean he was just.
It was almost like.
He was from another world, another time, yeah! Well, you know uh Lou.
You know.
I want to just kind of build off of that.
He was a guy who you know his legacy, and this is um.
This is this is something that’s unique to Alexis.
His legacy may be even more about how he made people feel outside the ring, rather than how he made people feel inside the ring, and I I truly mean that I don’t.
I can’t say that about any other any other fighter.
This is just that sense with with Alexis that when and – and I saw this when I when I went to uh Nicaragua – is that when I met him, he was asking me about you know about me about my family.
You know about you know, you know where I’m coming from and um in my relationship.
You know with my with my family and my father.
I mean these were things that you know boxers athletes.
You know first off, you know, like you, said, a lot of them.
Don’T feel like they have the time right and then um and then you have uh Alexis.
Who you know is not just asking you one question, but then, but then wants to know more about you, um and um and which is so uh something that’s so uplifting because you know we want so much out of our our sports figures.
I mean we want to go.
We want to meet them, we want to get an autograph at best.
We want to shake their hand but um when they reciprocate that and then and then turn it back to you.
It’S it’s just this um.
It creates one of those memories that it’s hard to.
You know it’s hard to forget when someone does that um and and and when um and, like you said Lou, you know not not everybody, you know some people, just you know, sign their autograph and and and and you’re on your way right and you have that That uh, you know you that you have that as a memory, but with Alexis you know and – and you have someone actually asking you about you talking to you – it’s just uh, it’s something that is um that is is is less stays with you for a long Time it’s a real person, I mean it and I’ll never forget there were so many families at the hall of fame and kids would run to him and he’d pick them up like it was his own kid.
You know and then he’d sign the autograph and the kid would take a couple steps, a turn and run back and hug him and he hadn’t turned away.
Yet he was still looking right at the kid and I thought this is a real human being.
This is the people’s Champion.
You know this is a person who belongs to the world.
You know he found the world, but he didn’t lose himself.
I mean I I I went with a friend of mine who lives in Vancouver.
Now he was working at the sports network here covering boxing which is like ESPN, which owns the sport yeah work up here and we went to see the Arguello fights on pay-per-view, not Deborah fight.
Excuse me Aaron Pryor, fight on pay-per-view, and I think it was the second I can’t remember.
I think it was the second or first fight 13th round.
He hit him with the right hand, and I thought he killed prior and my friend said to me: Pryor’s got to be Juiced and, of course, we find out later Panama, Lewis.
You know who’s in his Corner, who was Panama, Lewis came to the Fifth Street Gym when I was there evangelo one time, the new Fifth Street Gym and he wanted to come up and say hi to Angelo and Angela said I don’t want to see him he’s A he’s a piece of crap and then he asked again and Angelo sent someone down to say.
If you come up to see me you’re going to leave in a pine box, he hated Panama, Lewis, oh for what he done to Alexis and and what he did to Billy Collins and so many other Fighters.
It’S amazing now that you know more than likely did Alexis ever speak about that I mean what other conclusion is there, that he was Juiced for that fight, that they had a stimulant whether it was cocaine or whatever yeah the um.
So, just a little background on my on my book, um, the uh, so one of the things that that Alexis um, when when I wrote my book it was it was after Alexis had passed.
So I I hadn’t we were in, we were in discussions for the book um to to do the book and then um, unfortunately, um Alexis passed and, and so it was, it wasn’t a um kind of a coordinated set of interviews that I did throughout it was You know I met him once in in Managua um and I got to do an interview there and then um and then he passed and then um the uh.
You know someone talked to me about a book but um one of the things that he said about.
Uh he didn’t he didn’t he.
He didn’t speak to the um uh to what Panama, Lewis uh had done what he spoke to more was he said.
You know what what they do to you, what you do to them on the way in uh.
They do to you on the way out, so I I think he took a more diplomatic approach and uh with me and saying you know that um, you know what what was happening was not is not something that I’m going to.
You know rage against and and um you know uh, but but I will say that you know at that stage in my career I was I was, you know not not the same fighter um with that so um.
He didn’t at least directly to me.
He didn’t.
He didn’t show any animosity toward um uh toward what we were saying with uh with Aaron Pryor um.
That being said, I mean it’s it’s hard to deny um.
You know the the wrongdoing that occurred there in in that particular in that particular fight um.
You know uh as great as prior was I mean we, we saw it with our own eyes what what what was happening.
You know in the ring and at the hall of fame prior didn’t deny that he said yeah there was stuff in the bottle, I’m not going to say what it was but yeah.
You know and, as you said, Alexis was just past his Prime at that point.
When he thought uh prior both times so earlier on, I think it would have been a different story when I was born, I’m 62.
.
So when I was growing up, they always talk Duran and a whale were fighting, but they were always at different weight classes.
Tyrannos.
Moving up the Welter while Alexis was Junior lightweight, was there any seriousness about that? Were there ever close to having a fight between the two of them? Yes, um.
You know before that move occurred.
You know, um Duran went up to him in a uh.
I think it was an airport um and went up the um Alexis and started.
You know, you know, you know, started uh talking to him and you know you want to fight me.
Man, you know come on and fight me and Alex was like easy.
You, I I you don’t you know and, and I’m paraphrased you you don’t approach me like that.
I mean I’m.
A very serious man plea, you know, don’t don’t don’t treat me like that um.
You know Duran wanted that fight.
I mean everybody wanted that fight um, but there were, there were uh.
There were serious talks, it’s just um the the move was you know the the weight the weight move like you said it was.
It was too, it was too hard to overcome um and and to make to make that that actual, that that fight happen, um and um as as much as um.
I I don’t know how serious in the in the sense that they got close close to actually making that fight, but there was there, like you said there was some some major discussions around around that um that Showdown and what a fight it would have been.
I know art Hasty, tell me: he fought Alexis and Nicaragua and he said he had trouble with his hand wraps not from Alexis but from the military who were out in force for the fight, and he just said it.
It was a terrifying thing.
You know coming from the East Coast coming from Canada, where, where unfortunate, there’s now a lot more gun violence, but at that time you know to have 20 gun murders in Canada in a year back then, would have been a lot in an entire country.
So to see all these soldiers there have gone soon.
You can’t do this.
You can’t do that and and art saying I’m just taking a drink of water from the tap and then saying.
Well, let me talk to Alexis, he won’t mind, but he said it was just a um a frustrating time, but you mentioned something earlier.
You know Alexis.
I didn’t know this until I got older Angela, that boxers, for the most part, are friends because they know each other from the amateurs, and you mentioned bazooka Le Mans, and I believe there was one other person that uh Billy Costello that he may have been angry At but it was very touching, the fight with Ray Mancini told him he loved them after and he followed through that where he actually held man see me and and Mancini’s career, and he wasn’t obligated to do that.
But he did that out of the kindness of his heart.
He helped make him a champion yeah.
He said it.
You know he said he said.
I love what you have with your father, um and uh, and and really you know at that.
At that point um, you know you may see that iconic photo of him.
You know kind of cradling um, you know uh yeah and um, and so you know it’s it you’re right and I think that’s that’s the uh.
That’S the vital Point here is that he didn’t have to do that.
Um, it was a.
It was something that was, that was natural um.
It wasn’t something that was fabricated in any way and and that that was just Alexis’s way of um.
You know he saw people in he saw Fighters.
He saw people in in just this this this way that that’s hard to uh hard to describe it’s just that um.
He never.
You know he never saw someone as just an opponent or or or or would look at look at them in that in that fashion or um as like you know, sometimes you know he’s just an opponent as a motivating factor.
You know he he saw Rayman scene.
I mean they were, they were, you know, obviously, in two different um.
You know movie two two different directions in in their career um, but he took the time to say you know Ray.
You know this is a uh, you know um, you know pretty much.
You’Re Gon na Be A Champion, but but you know you’re you’re.
I love what you have with your father and um.
You know when, when a young fighter sees that that someone who could be looked at as a mentor as Alexis argue or I think I think it does something to them – um and uh, you know he was he just he just he just took that role and Ran with it, I I think and um you know it wasn’t just Ray Mancini who was um.
Who was I? I think he did this for for a lot of Fighters and uh so uh, it’s just um, it’s kind of a touching thing, and and and when you think about Arguello and you think about a guy who is as as violent in the ring.
You know it’s just it’s just um amazing to see that he was just as gentle outside of it.
You know it’s interesting um.
When I met Kenny Norton.
He said that uh he was talking about his fights with foreman and Ali and different people, and he said you know what my problem was and I I said I can’t imagine you having a problem and Angelo called them.
The muskox I mean he was gigantic and he said I never hated anyone.
I thought I just couldn’t it’s not in me.
You know I looked at it as purely a sporting competition.
I wanted to beat the man, but I didn’t want to really hurt him and he said it was hired against Ali because I loved him because I was destined to living in my car with my son and beating Ally the first time.
Instead of fighting for 1500.
A fight and now fighting for five six hundred thousand, so he said you can’t hate a person for that.
It seemed like Alexis.
Just didn’t: have that hatred in him for other Fighters or people that he viewed it really professionally.
It’S just.
This is a job.
It’S a business, it’s what I do right.
I I don’t.
You know that that wasn’t um, something that was instilled um within him and and you saw that um you saw that in the pre-fights before some of these.
You know these big fights.
He wasn’t he.
You know he wasn’t gon na.
You know play that um you know or play into that uh those you know that type of uh building building up for the fight.
That was even if even you know, even if, if it wasn’t for you know they wanted him to do that, for the promotion of the fight it just I I can’t I can’t hate, you know I can’t hate, I’m, not I’m not gon na.
Do it to you know to you know to fulfill a uh, you know a promotional need, so it was just uh.
It’S just something I got ta tell you.
When I went to Nicaragua I mean just talking to people about Alexis um.
You know just reinforced exactly what you were uh.
What you’re saying about you know: um.
You know a human being um someone who, who understood you know where, where he stood inside and outside the ring, um uh Dapper guy uh, you know always um.
You know uh Dapper, but um, but but natural in the way that he he treated others.
So I I think all those things came through when I met met.
You know the people who loved him in Nicaragua away.
I mean his opponents loved him and you know they were hard.
I mean you know some tears.
Reading Jim Watts comment that he had lost one of his friends and idols and that he would miss him every day for the rest of his life.
You know how upset he was and that wasn’t just him.
That was, I mean, as you want to know, Rayman see me and, and so many other Fighters and guys, like George evalo and Nino benvenuti and other people, Muhammad Ali, that knew him and we’re just heartbroken.
You know what there’s been so much written about how he passed away, whether it it’s whether he was murdered by the government, whether it was suicide.
Do you have any thoughts on on what happened or will we ever know for sure the uh? So you know at the end of his and by the way Pryor was someone who who he became very good friends with that right.
They really, they really grew um to be uh, close friends, which you know um talk about.
You know talk about not hating an opponent um, you know someone, you know, it’d be hard, you’d, be hard-pressed to find many fighters who who were in a situation like uh like Alexis, was in those two fights and then coming out and having a one, a a Lasting friendship with with with prior yeah, exactly so um the uh the situation with with Alexis at the end of his at the end of his life, I mean um, you know it it uh! Well, first of all, do I think something you know where, where we’re gon na find out? Yes, um, I I do um after the uh, this regime and Ortega um.
You know that they no longer um, you know, they’re, no he’s no longer in power or or or something you know occurs where he.
Where he’s you know, pushed out of power.
I think we’re gon na find out what really happened that night with with Alexis um, I I I don’t know.
I think the what I what I tried to convey in in in the book itself was the understanding that that um, you know that uh, the sandinistas had had forced Alexis into a place of of no return in his life.
Emotionally um they had uh just destroyed him, we’re to a point where he had.
No, you know he had.
No, there was no recourse here.
He couldn’t come back from from what um either they had threatened him with or or or had had um threatened him physically or or with um.
You know at that stage politically um, you remember, you know this is a guy who was who was um? You know people looked at a Lexus at that stage in his life and were saying wow he’s he’s really he’s he’s really turning the corner in his life and and you know, um, and it wasn’t something where you know he had gone through a lot with.
You know um in difficulties, you know uh with finances, you know, um, you know drugs, you know and and he was becoming, and he recognized that at this stage he was improving as a person and was um.
You know, and I think that um, if, if the people who loved him understood that he you know – and it wasn’t a guy who was going to you know give up, he was, he was still fighting to become better each day um.
But I I think the sandinistas um that evening um when uh when they, when they eventually stripped him of all all powers and duties and made him pretty much left him as a figurehead that uh that Alexis would have nowhere else to turn.
So they searched his reputation, they destroyed that they tried to right right, I mean they, they knew, I mean uh, you know they every they knew.
Everybody in in Nicaragua knows Alexis and all the things you know that that make him tick um that he thrives on and um once they took his took, took uh stripped him of his ability to help others.
I mean that that was the one thing that that defined him um um.
That was his reason for being.
He had nothing left um, so, unfortunately uh so long story short, I mean on my end.
I think we we will find out um, you know they.
They can put up as many um uh tributes as they want um for Alexis, but um.
I think the um, the people that love him recognize that those are not.
Those are Hollow at best um, so um.
I just think that uh I don’t it could be 10 years from now could be 20 years from now, but um there will be answers whenever it comes out Christian you’re, the only one on the planet who can write the book about it.
You have to write the book about that.
The truth.
It’S only you.
Thank you so Alexis.
How would you say he should be remembered not only as and you know, three division all-time great world champion.
I mean if you listed the greatest world champions pound for pound.
Lexus is always in the top two or three.
You know.
If not one I mean you can’t read them lower.
You Angel Dundee said you can’t read them lower than number one Alexis lower than one at what at just overall or in a certain way a featherweight lightweight, uh junior lightweight, you can’t rate them less than number one.
There’S.
No one um put in a ring against him and say this guy’s got a chance.
Yeah, that’s he was he was that type I mean I love the most that um one.
Third, one! Thirty.
Actually you know what to be honest.
To be honest as much as I loved him at 1 30, I I thought he was probably the most um intimidating and and difficult to fight at 1, 35 but um, but he just didn’t.
Have it you know the numbers, are, you know, bring you bring? If you want to look at numbers and and um and and victories, you know the the 130 um is.
You know.
I thought he was a little bit too skinny at 126.
.
Uh 130 started to find his power um and he was just so tough.
I mean you know, uh a a guy who you know he talked about after this quescalera fight where he was getting um.
You know they were giving him stitches on on a train in Italy um the uh, just a guy who was you know? One thing we don’t talk about is is how tough he really was um and um.
So I I thought he was uh.
Just fabulous.
I mean you can talk about other Fighters at 1 30.
.
I mean um, you know, uh, you know: Junior lightweight with uh uh Mayweather’s and the Chavez’s, but um.
You know I’ll.
Take Alexis on that one.
You know it’s interesting because when he fought escalera both times but watch it, the first time Angelo said to me: I’m genuinely afraid that escalary could die, because because Alexis is not going to quit, he’s not going down he’s going to keep coming forward and pounding him And if Alaska escalaria’s trainers care about their fighter, they should be stopping this because he’s taken a real bad deal, yeah and that that was just uh.
You know Alexis uh, you know, you know, could take a punch, I mean you know, um and and also uh.
You know he was, he forget, he wasn’t, he wasn’t as big as a volume puncher as some other some other Fighters.
Um, you know, Duran was you know, Duran and Gomez, you know they were.
They were constant.
You know you know, movement punching, you know and and um you know.
You know, you know the whole fight chasing you down, Alexis, wasn’t that same volume puncher, but when he wanted to attack his combinations I mean we haven’t talked about the types of combinations he threw.
I mean you know they were um, you know if he, if he wanted to really intensify the attack on a fighter, he would and that that’s when it got scary, because he had that ability to to um.
You know to to to put his punches together in that way.
It’S just it’s just which one is going to connect and and knock you out, tremendous Zach, tremendous accuracy.
Certain interrupt and Angela said he only saw two guys that reminded him of Joe Lewis in combination punching Carlos serrati and Alexis Arguello, and what he loved and it put tears in Angelo’s face is when he had a guy hurt, hit him a good right hand to The chin and the guy would bring his hands up and Alexa, throw a left hook to the liver and Angela would say that’s textbook boxing.
That’S what they’ve been teaching for 300 years.
You get hit him in the chin.
His hands go up, take his liver and then bring the hands down and then he’s ready to go, and he said that’s Brilliance, that’s a guy.
Who knows how to do it.
That’S someone who makes it a sport anyhow, just that that was Alexis.
I mean yeah.
I mean, I’m sorry, sorry to cut you off um.
It was um.
You know, you know there.
We see guys who are textbook um who follow uh.
You know you, like you said you just you see it and it’s um.
You know it’s almost like clockwork things that you’re looking for in the ring, but when you hear that from Dundee it’s certainly something that’s special, oh Angelo loved him.
I I what the thing is.
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