AIR DATE:
EPISODE: Episode 48
Today Mike and Cedric host two very special guest to discuss Holman Williams and Herbert “Cocoa Kid” Lewis Hardwick.
Holman Williams was a world welterweight and middleweight boxing contender. Williams is a member of the infamous Murderers’ Row, a group of black fighters who were never able to get a world title shot. Herbert Lewis Hardwick Arroyo a.k.a. “Cocoa Kid” was a Puerto Rican boxer of African descent who fought primarily as a welterweight but also in the middleweight division. Hardwick won the World Colored Championships in both divisions.
Watch Knuckle Up’s Mike Orr and Cedric Benn, who always discusses up-and-coming young, hungry, and (usually) undefeated boxers during his live daily show at 4pm EST (9pm UK) on TalkinFight.com or YouTube.com/c/TalkinFight
https://talkinfight.com/holman-williams-and-herbert-cocoa-kid-lewis-hardwick-black-murderers-row-on-knuckle-up/
#TalkinFight #KnuckleUp #BlackHistory
Transcribed:
[, Music, ], hello, talking fight fans thanks for tuning in to another wonderful episode of knuckle up f4 with your man mike orr at four and again joining us today, our very special guest, james, hagler and uh.
We are continuing today with our uh black history and our uh murderous row boxing and another two guys and uh, this wonderful elite, boxing club that all you guys know uh now that we’ve brought it to your attention and we’re gon na continue with it today.
So cedric, why don’t you take us away perfect perfect? So today we got mr hallman williams and the coco kid herbert hardwick.
So starting with mr williams, first um hollywood williams was born january 30th.
1915 in this in pensacola florida, the same birthplace as my favorite boxer.
Roy jones jr um as an amateur he had he had a short career before turning professional in 1932 and uh.
You know, as i said before, that you know there wasn’t too much highlights of these guys back then.
So we got ta just kind of have to go on off the research of what people wrote about them and uh this.
This little brief description that that they wrote about him is similar to uh.
You know, i think, one of one of the main boxes nowadays.
If i’ll read this description first, they said he was one of the smartest technicians to grace the squared circle.
His skill set was unbelievable.
The fleet-footer boxer puncher was a defensive genius with an excellent jab, but if you, but if you were to nitpick anything about his game about his uh, you know his lack of uh anything that he lacked.
It was his lack of power.
I don’t know to me that sounds kind of like how people describe mayweather smart.
You know skill set defensive genius, uh good job, but if you know people talk about, he doesn’t knock people out.
It’S kind of uh kind of so that’d be interesting to see them to go at it, um of course yeah.
I guess so.
I guess so um he was stable, mates of eddie futch and joe lewis uh.
Of course, everyone knows the great joe lewis for those of you that don’t know who eddie futch is.
He went on to to coach great hall of fame boxers uh, including bernard hopkins and um, some other some other hall of fame.
Riddick bow yes exactly um, so eddie fudge was, you know, instrumental in a lot of a lot of hall of fame, boxer’s career um and uh stable.
He was stable mates with uh.
Mr holly williams, here um.
As a matter of fact, he was quoted.
Eddie fletch was quoted as saying you know, just giving williams such good compliments.
He said that he would rather watch william’s shadow box than watch most other fighters in action.
That’S how that’s how much of a great technician he was um upon retiring.
You know just like most boxers.
He still was in the gym: um, helping out train training, the next generation of boxers and specifically in helping training uh joe lewis, um at the at the louis and brewster recreational center in detroit yeah yeah yeah um.
All right mike give us his uh give us his uh his record [ Laughter, ] yo, this record guys wow.
Let me just tell you: uh, 146 wins.
31 losses.
11 draws 36 knockouts man, this 5 10 and a half 71 inch reach middleweight.
Okay had a knockout percentage of only 19.
05 percent so that lack of power that you’re talking about really does show guys when you uh, when you get on this here, man, that’s a total 189 bouts in his career 189 professional boats.
It’S two pages on box rack.
If you want to check it out man, that’s that career, we’re talking 189 bouts in only a 16-year career, so uh that just goes to show you how often these guys fight uh.
The funny thing i wanted to i wanted to mention was um williams.
Had a string of five victories, including wins against, i think it was uh baby tiger, flores, archie, moore kid torino and bob satterfield uh.
Even though williams was ranked number three uh, the number three middleweight and prime to challenge, then uh champion tony sale, uh his title fight, never materialized.
As the man of steel um, tony dale went off to fight in world war ii, so it never never happened.
Also um, the funny thing is: is we’re going to talk about another guy? That’S coming up in a minute here who was unquestionably um holmen’s uh, boogie man? To be honest, and i’m talking about the coca kid so the coco kid, because these guys fought each other.
So many times uh, you know he he actually was uh.
You know holman williams, bogeyman, which is kind of crazy about that.
But the rivals fought eight times um, you know and kid beat or sorry they fought 11 times and kid beat holmen williams.
Eight out of that 11 fights man so uh, some some big numbers there, man, the only person that could really that, like really test him was, was cocoa.
Kid yeah go ahead.
James go ahead, chime in well, i just wanted to say uh, you know who who you think would win out of zeal in him um well, because what did they compare my dad to jail? You know say i think my dad until come before my dad.
So uh that was interesting.
Uh you know to hear yeah yeah yeah.
I i think uh well the one thing about about uh marvin hagler.
He never ran out of gas yeah.
He was always in extra shape and oh, we got the champ in the house.
We got the champion house shania.
What’S up baby, i need my earphones hey, how you all doing all right all right.
Can you hear me here now you can hear us tim say what up we have james hagler up here.
It’S marvin, hey! I remember real quick when i first started boxing give me the earplugs shania.
I remember when i first started boxing and down this down we’re in south philly um the italian market, where they made the uh uh, the rocky movie yeah.
That’S where the gym was on um on uh past sunken moor, and that’s your uncle.
That’S my dad.
That’S your dad! I’M sorry yeah, that’s right! Uh and he walked.
He came in.
He came into the gym.
That’S the first time i met him that was marvin marvelous.
Let me put my things on yesterday: marvelous marvin, hey, that’s the first time i seen him boy.
He was something too in the gym and everything you know it was just like one day and then i met him.
Then i did a couple events with him.
Then we got to be good.
Friends.
That’S cool! That’S cool! That’S great! To hear oh yeah! Last time, when the last time you talked to dean, dean, dean, the welsh road warrior, nah dean smith, i know dean smith, yeah yeah with the aba.
I know, dean the american boxing association tell dean to come on the show yeah.
No, no! No! That’S dean! That’S dean, the welsh wrote, dean williams, hey, but listen we’re right in the middle of talking about holland williams.
Right now we just finished um champ.
You just came in.
We just finished talking about holland williams, one of the the famous murder uh members of the black murderers row, born in 1915.
Um, you know, follow fought all the top guys, except for you know the they wouldn’t give him a shot, um and yeah.
We just finished talking about his his crazy record and uh yeah about to move on to the the cocoa kid.
I don’t know.
If you got anything to say about mr holland williams, i wasn’t born, then i know they had something in philly where they had some murder rogue gang or something like that, but yeah that one.
I never heard of that’s interesting, yep, yep yep.
Now now we’re moving on to um herbert lewis, hardwick, who went by the name, the cocoa kid weren’t born, may 2nd in 1914, in maiagues puerto rico, his family moved to atlanta, georgia um.
He started boxing this kid.
He had his first pro fight at 15.
, 15 years old in 1932 um.
He was the only only hispanic member of the bla of the murderers row.
He changed his name to cook to the cocoa kid uh.
Reportedly, in tribute to the hall of fame cuban kid chocolate um, they said he was a decorated pugilist with a solid left, jab and a dangerous red cross.
Are you talking about kid chocolate? No! No! I’M talking about coco.
He named his he kind of named himself after kid shop.
Oh i’ll, give her a [ __ ], okay, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, okay, um yeah.
During his time he had 13 fights with the man we just talked about before holland williams, winning eight of those.
Yes and uh and yeah well, supposedly he was supposed to uh to to there and negotiate negotiations to fight sugar ray robinson, but the negotiations broke down.
They were saying because he knocked down sugar ray and sparring a couple of times so uh that was kind of one of the reasons why the fight never actually happened.
Well, you know how it is now the rumors rumors get around um mike.
Please give us his record.
Oh yes, yes, this! This is a good one man, this kid, three: okay, guys three pages three pages of fights here, three pages, three, three pages, uh 249 bouts in his career uh – and you know it spans it spans.
Like you know, 19 years, man, his career went from 1929 to 1948 and he amassed a record of 178 wins 58 lost his 11 no contest with 48 wins by knockout uh.
Only you know 19.
28 knockout rate, but still man, 249 bouts, uh.
It’S pretty nuts man and uh.
You know this guy’s, 5 10 and a half 70 inch reach uh, you know yeah, oh mike throws up.
He froze up for a second on that last part.
Right.
Sorry, man, uh yeah.
All right! I don’t know where i froze when you’re talking about the reach you’re talking about his reach.
Oh, you know 510 70 inch reach puerto rican uh, you know, and then he moves to new haven, connecticut, usa and uh.
This is this is all because of his father.
Uh, who is a marine, i believe, what uh? What wait did what weight class did? He say i forget what weight class he’s a walter he’s, a walter welterweight welterweight herbert lewis, hardwick newest kid polka or cocoa, cocoa kid there.
You go the cocoa kid there.
You go uh, mr hagler, your thoughts who you think would win out of robinson to him um.
Well, i mean i that’s the thing.
That’S the thing man i mean, there’s a reason why these guys were on this list because everyone was avoiding them.
They they said how we dropped him in sparring um.
So you know what you got his guess.
You know yeah, he wasn’t born.
He wasn’t born yeah yeah, just just by greeting.
Well how about this? How would you um what would you think of a marvelous lining up with some of those guys some of those middleweights? Well, as i said, the one thing about marvelous is he he was always in shape.
He never ran out of gas and he was coming at you 100 miles an hour, so you know unless those guys it would be, it would have been good and that you know those guys would have to make sure that they were on their a game if They were facing, you know, marvis marvin, angler what hand was he i had the axes for years.
What hand was what the hand was was was? Was softball softball what he was left-handed yeah? Well, he because he fought cut, i mean again, he switched, which you know.
Why he switched right, he had to switch because he was going to philly, so he needed something because those guys was tough back then so he needed something to throw him off and that’s when he started learning how to fight the other side as well.
So when he going into the lions, then that that’s how he uh started interesting yeah he needs.
I know you said he went on both sides and he went on both sides to understand that gave him more tools, but if he would have stayed on one, he still would have did just as good yeah yeah, but because he had eye and chin the one Thing that he has in common with those guys is that he was authentically tough and his his will.
He had a strong will and he was very hungry, and these guys back then were so hungry man.
You know that they that’s how they was feeding their families.
Man, that’s why you see these records 200 fights april’s fighting three times a month four times a month.
You don’t get knocked out what come back and fight again.
I was in the uk with him too, and we did a couple of shows and i think we was in leeds he’s in sheffield.
They love, they love them, they love them yeah, they do hey.
I said i sat next to him.
I sat next to him.
Uh talking to him he’s really cool man really.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
Thank you.
That’S my man, so hardwick hardwick faced holmen williams for the world color middleweight championship on january 15, 1943.
At the victoria arena in new orleans uh louisiana hardwick took the title from williams on point.
In that 12-round bout he never defended the title which became extinct instead.
He met williams at new orleans coliseum arena on september 15, 1944 for the duration middleweight world title this time.
The result was a draw after 12 rounds.
It was his second fight after being discharged from the u.
s navy wow so and for those people that don’t know about the world colored welterweight championship, it was created in 1936 and on july 26 of that year, hardwick met young, peter jackson, the holder of the pacific Coast and mexican lightweight titles at henneman park in new orleans louisiana in a 10-round bout uh referred to uh referred by harry, will uh wills as the three-time world colored heavyweight champion, hardwick won via technical knockout in the second round uh.
He made four defenses of that title on september 22nd of that year, the same venue he defeated jackie alvaro on points in ten rounds um.
You know he know um also in third 1937, at the coliseum arena in new orleans, hardwick fought his old nemesis holly and williams prevailing in a close fight.
Winning a decision in the 12-rounder ring magazine had donated a championship belt for the belt hardwick successfully defended his title against the black against black canadian boxer sonny jones at the valley arena in massachusetts on november 15, 1937.
in a ref in about referred by then former World champion jack sharkey uh hardwick scored a technical knockout in the sixth round uh uh of their 15-round boat uh.
He had devastated jones in the third with a right to his jaw and then uh with a right that opened a cut over sonny’s left eye.
Uh sharkey stopped the fight when jones could barely see, so these guys were battling it out, man and uh.
You know week after week a couple times a month uh.
You know and fighting each other for this this this championship in this tournament that these guys had to make up because they were so damn feared by every other boxer in in their division 24 rounds.
Those guys had to be i’m just saying.
Somebody did 20 something rounds.
Those guys had to be in shape.
So briefly, i was just saying you know what our skills was.
A little were a little bit better, but conditioning those guys are strong man.
They were strong back then.
I think now, because you just walked like this they’d – be walking like this and stuff right, but they were strong yeah with their neck and skills.
They were strong and go 25 rounds and um i’m trying to debate.
How would we do against them? You know because if they show up, they might like skills but they’ll, be there all day, long yeah yeah and it was hungry too.
I know if i hit him on the chin.
He probably could still get up right right if they strong.
So i always wondered about that.
Yeah man yeah before joe lewis, yeah yeah, yeah yeah.
Those boys are strong, 24 rounds and still you seen who that did 20 rounds or 24 rounds.
You know like oh two fights, that’s basically, two fights in one like, yes, still be strong and he’s still strong, i’m like yeah, plus the glove sizes was different as well.
Yes, yes, yeah.
Definitely they definitely weren’t made they definitely weren’t made of uh what they are made of right here, um, because when you look at them and they you know no matter what weight they are uh, you ever notice that in those old pictures they all look like bag.
Gloves they all look like bag gloves the 1980s the 1980 bag gloves.
I wonder, i wonder i wonder how many guys can’t communicate how many, how fast that was a lot of the communications, probably was bad after, like about 20 fights 25 fights, because a lot of them got hit too.
You know imagine that you know just nowadays and guys box too.
You can start losing a little bit like like you know.
You can’t remember things and stuff like that.
Imagine with those small gloves and going all those rounds right, yeah yeah, and they were swinging for the bleachers too [ Laughter ].
You must have played baseball before you played baseball before huh yeah.
You played baseball before okay um, but of course, especially because they were probably getting you know, they probably gave him an extra bonus for the for having a you know, knockout of the night, or something like that, and right, of course, you’re trying to get every extra Piece of money you can especially back then, so it’s like you already talked about murders row and how they how they got started and everything i know i tried to get on and the first.
Our first day, we just gave a brief summary of all the guys on how it got started and each day we we pick two guys and uh and just talk about those for for that day.
That’S what we’ve been doing every week and then tomorrow tomorrow, tomorrow we got well.
We saved the best for last well for what they say the best last charlie burley.
They say they say from what everyone says was that was probably the best one out of all of them: uh charlie burnley, even though, even though hardwick the cocoa kid from april to september of 1940, he was the number one welterweight contender in the world.
However, henry armstrong, who held the win that yeah, who held that world welterweight championship, refused to give him a title shot and then october 9th 1943 hardwick made the cover of knockout magazine as the cocoa.
Kid and armstrong is a bad dude.
He ain’t going to fight this other guy.
No, i’m glad i ain’t fighting back.
That’S the amazing thing about the about these guys is that a lot of the top dudes was like nah, i’m cool.
You know they’re, like now, cool i’m like wow.
They never got a chance to hold a title.
You know no, they had they had to create their own title man in their own tournament and uh.
You know this is the reason why we were talking about two guys who faced each other 11 times and uh.
You know unfortunately, uh herbert herbert had holmen’s uh holmen’s cards, man, because you know he beat him eight out of the 11 times they faced each other.
You know show you uh.
I guess i guess, when you’re feared, when, when you’re feared, instead of loved, you get put into a different category and uh.
Unfortunately, you get kind of.
I guess you get kind of sidelined, really or shelfed and uh.
You know you can’t get the fights that you want to get.
I and you know, and that’s just going back in the 40s like the same kind of [.
__ ] happened with you tim.
I i know you were talking about it.
I’M sure it happened to your dad james uh, you know these guys, you guys were feared and uh and you didn’t get the fights that you wanted.
Because of that and honestly, i think these guys helped pave the way for people like tim and your dad to to come through and and and start to make a change in it right now.
I think all those guys should be abducted in the hall of fame.
I know some of them are, but i think they all should be.
They all should have a place man, because it’s just, unfortunately, that they didn’t get a chance to fight for a title.
You know and yeah.
I just hate to see that, like, like, i said the other day about demetrius andres, even vernon forrest, another guy that would that took a while to get a title.
Nobody wanted to fight him.
Neither – and i remember talking i remember talking to vernon in the gym, because i was on holyfield amateur boxing team at the time and um.
You know he was like hey look come here.
Man tell your dad i’m trying to get this title, so i called my dad up and he said: hey, you know tell vernon as long as he keeps winning.
They got to give him a shot to tell him to keep winning.
I remember man, my dad.
We watched this, the fight the night that he won the title man and he was – and i see him the next day after mall he was so excited, and i let you know i told him i told my dad and uh he was man.
I missed vernon brennan was a cool dude man yeah, i can imagine yeah.
I never met him, but it seemed to be a nice guy, yeah yeah yeah.
He was real, real good, real.
You know first person to beat mosley yeah.
Well, they also had the amateur wars.
You know what i’m saying during the image time, so he couldn’t wait to get near what i was saying: man yeah and that’s just crazy, because no one up until that point.
Nobody really heard of vernon forrest yet because uh um, you know when shane mosey, shane mosey was the man at that time when they fought right, we’re always really thinking about vernon forrest and he beat him once everyone thought it was just a fluke and he’d beat Him again, the second time always got the best of them.
Vernon always got the best settlement during the amateurs right, yeah, yeah yeah, so they’re so used to fighting each other in the hamstrings.
When they turn pro, they just go.
Go no.
I mean in an intelligent way, yeah an intelligent way right.
That’S my uncle my uncle robbie simmons told me when i was when i was fighting.
He said.
Remember these guys.
I was like why he said because you’re going to see them in the pros guys.
You know i got a question for uh for uh, mr haglin, with a spoon james we’ll go first.
Is there any any um like black fighters from your dad’s era, that maybe you heard your dad talk about that uh that maybe didn’t get their chance or didn’t get their shine at the time and then tim answer the same thing after james um? I never heard him talk about anybody that that was going through what he was going through at the time, but he always talked about uh reuben carter.
He talked about him a lot.
What’S the other? What’S the other um, you talked about uh, dick, tighter and uh.
What’S the other middleweight tiger, i heard that name.
Yet i heard that what’s his name, he came up to the gym.
Ah, what’s his name man, he was a little jersey he’s from jersey, oh middleweight, [, Music, ] talking about boxing.
He brought those guys up a lot.
I think he patting himself a little bit behind reuben.
You know because we would as well come up with the road the ball head.
You know yeah yeah, yeah yeah.
That makes sense.
I know um real, quick before tim.
You answer, i know, i’m pretty sure james, i’m pretty sure muhammad ali said this about about your dad um correct me.
If i’m wrong, but he’s like early like, i know you died, he fought, he did have some big fights, but he still, you know, had to work his way up to get those big fights and had to wait a long time for those big fights and i’m Pretty sure i heard a quote from mama ali saying to him.
He said you got three things against you.
He said you’re good, you’re, black and you’re, a southpaw that was still crazy, um.
I think a two three day night, just to stay at joe frazier’s house.
On radio he won that and he ended up going to joe frazier’s house and spending time with him.
Oh joe frazier said that to your dad, your friends said that wow wow, that’s awesome.
Man go ahead, tim! No! I don’t really.
You know when we were fighting um um, everybody did fight each other.
Like you know.
I know you said yeah well, when i was.
We had a good whole, a good flock of heavy weights, uh and other weights.
Everybody fought each other.
They you know, i don’t think i can that’s why i can’t remember um anybody like you know, running from another guy.
It might have been, maybe because of money, the money or something like that, but other than that everybody fought each other.
That’S right! You write about that and that that’s that’s when blossom was boxed.
You know you know, because nowadays, man, you got to wait 30 years to see.
If you can fight each other back, you know, then they take time off of the ring.
They fight one time and three years ago he coming back then with don king, which was attempting to get tyson from from them from those guys.
He was lining all the heavyweights up just to fight tyson, um and yeah.
He was lining them all up.
He forgot about everybody else.
He forgot about everybody and said: hey, that’s my thing and he started putting each one in he put mitch green and he put he got miss green good um.
I didn’t want to go in because i was only going to get 500 grand and now that i was going to get 150.
.
So when everybody making a couple million so yeah, he started lining everybody up and um and he finally got mike.
You know he finally got him and then all the bruce on that whatever happened, they did.
You know he went through so um.
He at one point.
He just forgot about everybody that said no concentrating on mike boom and so that this is where we’re at today.
You know holyfield for everybody too.
That’S what i like about holyfield well for everybody.
You don’t say well, wait, wait.
Let me say something real, quick um at one time we were scheduled to fight and they turned the fight down and they said he had a heart.
Something was wrong: yeah yeah, yeah yeah.
I remember i read my book, but a lot of guys was was a lot of guys were scared, a lot of management, not the boxers right.
The boxers didn’t care about fighting.
What’S the management, the management dinner lennox lewis, lou dovinham, they didn’t didn’t, want to fight fight me for some reason.
I wasn’t even in shape who else it was uh um.
It’S even documented that um mike tyson’s people um kevin rooney, not him just managers in them.
They didn’t want to.
I felt that gave me a name when i found that out huh, i think.
What’S his name, what’s this, what’s this people uh bill, his name was his name is bill.
That was one of his manager.
I was like, i know tyson to fight me any day in the week and but the management in them was scared and i think that’s because of the skills they didn’t know, which gym was this one going to wind up? So i was like feeling real good about that.
I was like okay.
I know mike wouldn’t fight me.
I know lennox wouldn’t fight me no problem, but it was the management i was like.
That’S cool yo.
I didn’t know that.
Are you talking about jimmy jacobs, yeah bill k? Did they turned it down? Yeah yeah? They turned it down.
I was like whoa, i said okay and then them turned it down for me with linux.
I was like because they said they didn’t know which they didn’t know, which tim what is going on, so that that you know it’s never their fault, it’s either the managers or the promoters.
I wasn’t very, i mean even even right now with spence and crawford.
I don’t, i don’t think like people, you know you don’t box your whole life and then wake up one day and all of a sudden afraid of fate or fighting somebody.
I don’t i don’t.
I don’t think it’s them that don’t wan na it’s the management yeah.
That’S clashing yeah.
I had to tell dante’s box and i had to tell him i seen him at the boxing expo and i and i see he did a set with um with uh.
What’S his name, um uh? What’S the guy’s name, they said my dad ran from him and uh yeah that ran for somebody yeah the dude, but the dude fought i’m not about to have his name in a minute to do for james tony uh, the body snatcher, the the spot.
Oh mike mccallum, mike mccall, mike all right mark marvin would have done him right.
So i told him i told my son, i told him hey, look man, my dad was scared of nobody, man.
The only reason why he didn’t fight was because he couldn’t get no money.
What happened exactly you know what i’m saying he was going to fight him before the uh before the beast yeah, and then they have found the beast and they was like.
Well, we could make more money with him than fighting mccollum.
You know what i’m saying like mccallum.
That’S that’s to me.
That would have been a nice money that so was the money.
It was the money that would have been less money right, but look at hers didn’t fight him.
Sugar didn’t fight him.
Duran didn’t fight him.
You know what i’m saying: there was no money in fighting uh mcconnell, no, okay, okay, there’s a big risk, low reward! Yeah! That’S right, yep exactly because he had two close fights with james tony still in his prime, yes james.
So my dad said my dad said when i see he told me he said when i seen mike mccullum.
I went over there and i and i said hello to him and i told him you know i had a lot of respect for him, he’s a good fighter and i’m you know, i’m sorry that we couldn’t get it on.
You know, and you know mike was like: oh, he still was bitter, but i’m like that.
Pissed me off.
I’M like what are you i mean, you know you you should have did something you don’t say you should have made it.
So you can’t get this money fight, yeah! That’S on you, man, you know what i’m saying.
Are you bitter you still bitter so the management, the management? I guess um, i don’t know they they’re supposed to help uh boost um your career up and everything, and so you could be a big money, a money, boxer um.
So what you think i’m just saying um, you know the managers are numbers of build them up.
So he can get that big money fight, so he had a problem with them.
He had a problem with his managers and stuff who my dad yeah well at first at first, it was taking too long to get the title shot, so he was thinking about going.
I remember that everyone’s thinking about going out to l.
a – i remember that sometimes he was frustrated at home because he wanted it and then, when he found out what was going on and why he wasn’t getting his tire shot, it became a different story.
So that’s why he stayed that’s why he ended up staying with them.
It actually was gail clancy in them guys not not giving him title fight because he was good.
They knew that he was going to beat big man okay, so they they kept running from him.
Yeah up there in boston to you know to get him to uh, get a title shot.
They told gail clancy those guys they was like.
Look.
If you don’t give marvin a title, shot we’re going to open up a full investigation.
That’S how you got the title! Shot with uh veto in the firmware well, wow holy crow man, so your your dad was pretty much got your your dad was in the same the same boat as these guys said: yeah same boat as these guys right i mean he could have been this.
He could have been the guy.
We could be talking about him right now.
Yeah, my mother was a good fighter, but he never got that chance that that’s just you know for people to do that to a fighter and ruin their career.
I just think it’s terrible man, you know, i really think that’s.
That’S.
That’S that’s hard to take to swallow as a just as a fighter man as a fighter.
You know i mean you never get that shot.
You know you was.
He was worthy of this.
You know you was good, you know you the best and you just couldn’t get because of politics.
Yeah, you know, that’s finance, it’s crazy! Uh! Good thing is, you know: williams was elected, uh, holman williams was elected into the boxing hall of fame uh in 1996 and was elected into the international boxing hall of fame in 2008 uh.
He was killed in a fire while asleep in the club, where he worked at so yeah.
It’S unfortunate that happened to him, but uh.
You know he’s one of these guys.
That definitely deserves to be there um yeah for sure for sure, um and and speaking of uh.
Mr mr hardwick, here you know he fought and lost to archie moore in 1945.
uh.
He lost his last professional fight on august 24, 1948 against bobby mann at bell park in trenton, new jersey, uh in 1949, uh sugar, ray robertson entered into and then broke uh two agreements to fight against hardwick 1949 harwick was robinson’s safari partner at the welfare way Kings, training camp, so you know at the end of his boxing career hardwick, had fought 244 professional fights.
He won, 176 40 weight.
48 wins by knockout lost 56 fights seven by way of knockout and tennis fights were classified as draws: um yeah man, these guys uh.
These guys paved the way for people um, like like your dad and tim.
To be honest, let me i have a personal question.
Yes, the ex junior, it’s not junior, no, i’m the oldest okay you’re, the oldest.
Now i was several times over over uh overseas, like in events with your with you, with your dad and um his wife.
Did you know her real good yeah? I know his wife, yes yeah.
She and i met her.
She seemed pretty tough.
She must be a mob daughter or something like that.
She’S, like tough towards me and stuff, like she’s overprotective with him yeah yeah.
He told me he said he said: that’s my watchdog yeah.
She like that and she was acting like a security guard, yeah yeah yeah.
We did several events every time we said say hi and stuff like that, and i was sitting next door and she was serious.
She was like [ Laughter, ].
You know she like his bodyguard that was like shout out to action.
You know yeah she’s.
She was just literally right now right, say it again: she’s in italy, right right, yeah yeah.
She said yeah, she’s, okay, yeah.
I met her like three or four times i was like she’s a bodyguard.
She ain’t.
Let nobody mess with him fighting yeah.
She doesn’t.
She doesn’t, she doesn’t get along with a lot of the the females in our family, okay, okay, because she’s too protective you know.
Is there everything yeah? She is if i, if somebody outside and somebody else, i i’m cool with her, but if somebody outside the real sense that then yeah i was just like saying: hi, hey her name.
What’S her name, her name is kate kay yeah.
She nice she nice.
I mean.
I did a couple of events but she’s pretty cool she calmed down after a while.
I was like those guys didn’t know that yeah he had to tell her.
He has to tell her sometimes hey, but i just relax.
Okay, it’s okay! I know she likes that, though he liked that, though my dad was very, he was a hard dude man, so he like yeah, but he would listen.
He was he.
I never seen him meet mad or nothing like that.
He’D go around nice and cool with everybody, and that’s what i liked about him when he fight he really showed up, he showed up and shake the switch.
It’S like flipping the switch man that was a very humble person on the outside of the ring great humanitarian, but man get that man in the ring flip that switch and uh a ferocious beast stands on the other side of the you know, on the other, on The other side of you man, when you’re going up against them, like like night and day like night and day and and i love, and i love how your father never never carried that outside of the ring man that that aggression and that and that ferociousness.
It’S just it was a switch man.
Your dad knew your dad knew how to turn it man, some guys, can turn it on, and some guys can.
You know and your dad definitely one of those guys that could do that.
Exactly.
Thank you.
Yeah man uh – that being said, guys we’re getting to that time tonight.
So today, um cedric, uh finish this off by the conclusion.
Yep today was uh today’s thursday.
So today was our fourth day of um, focusing on the fit in the main, the members of the black murderers row from the 1930s and 40s, who are some great great black fighters who never got their shot at uh.
You know at the top guys because everyone knew how dangerous they were um.
So yes, we’re giving them their shine this week, and so people still remember where they are and still remember their names and tomorrow we’re gon na focus on um, charlie burley, who many say that was the best out of the guys from this black murderer’s row and Also, i didn’t, we didn’t do lloyd marshall.
Yet did we no not yet no okay? So we got charlie burley and lloyd marshall.
Tomorrow, yeah man, the black murderers, wrote hopefully uh james and tim, could join us again i’ll, be here definitely all right.
Well to all the talking fight fans out there today, thanks for tuning in to this special episode of knuckle up, uh thanks again to james for joining us and uh two-time heavyweight champ, tim witherspoon, always a pleasure guys.
Uh we’ll see you tomorrow for the continuation of this great story about the black murderers row and these eight fighters, who paved the way for north african-american fighters in the game today and uh.
You know, have have set it up for their success.
Man, so guys make sure you come join us tomorrow for charlie burley and who’s the next one, lloyd marshall, lloyd, marshall, okay, charlie burley, lloyd, marshall, so guys same time same channel tomorrow, continuation, blackberry, israel, you know what it is we’ll see you then peace, peace, okay,
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