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EPISODE: Episode 1
In this highly anticipated episode of Ring Talk with Lou Eisen, we have the privilege of hosting the esteemed Randy Roberts, a distinguished professor of history at Purdue University and a celebrated award-winning author. With a global reputation as a sought-after historian, Roberts has written an impressive thirteen books on sports history, with his latest masterpiece being “Blood Brothers: The Fatal Friendship between Muhammad Ali and Malcolm X,” co-authored with Johnny Smith.
Join us as we dive deep into the fascinating world of sports history with Randy Roberts. Discover the meticulous research and insights that go into crafting compelling narratives about iconic figures in the sports world. We’ll explore the intricate bond between Muhammad Ali and Malcolm X, a relationship that transcended sports and had a profound impact on society.
Randy Roberts’ literary prowess has earned him countless prestigious book awards, solidifying his place as one of the most influential sports historians of our time. You might recognize him from his appearances in various Ken Burns documentaries on PBS, where his expertise has enriched historical storytelling.
As we explore the captivating stories of sports legends and the historical context that shaped their lives, be sure to tune in and be inspired by the depth of knowledge Randy Roberts brings to the table. This episode is a treat for sports enthusiasts, history buffs, and anyone with a passion for untold stories.
Don’t miss this extraordinary conversation on Ring Talk with Lou Eisen. Like, comment, and share this video to celebrate the impact of sports history and the remarkable work of Randy Roberts.
Transcribed
Laughs: [, Music, ] hi.
My name is Lou Eisen and welcome to ring talk boxing writer and historian, and today we have a very special guest, we’re just waiting for him to click on the link in his in his uh, a home in Indiana he’s the very distinguished Professor Randy Roberts.
He’S 150th anniversary history, professor at Purdue University, it’s four times nominated for the pillar.
Surprise he’s written 30 books he’s written some unbelievably brilliant books, uh such as Joe Lewis, one of my favorites hard times, man, Jack Dempsey and the Manassa Mahler he’s written also on Jack, Johnson and uh he’s got a new one season in the sun, Mickey Mantle, which I can’t wait to get he’s written on John Wayne, the Chicago Cubs, and hopefully he will be joining us soon.
You will recognize him instantly from his appearances on the documentary, the PBS documentary, Unforgivable, Blackness and just a brilliant man, and it would indeed be a tremendous privilege to have have them on today if we are able to get him um the book we’re going to talk About today that he wrote is an interesting book, Blood Brothers and this book, the Fatal friendship between Muhammad Ali and Malcolm X and I’ll.
Ask our producer Eric just to stop or interrupt me, whatever uh Randy signs on so uh.
I had a bunch of questions for him that I can try to answer myself and I guess when Randy comes on, we can compare them uh.
One of the questions I wanted to ask Mr Roberts.
Professor Roberts, is what did each man get from the other? What did Ali get from Malcolm X and Malcolm X get from Ali, but they didn’t get from anyone else, and I think it’s an interesting question because there’s a certain Spark going on between these two when they met what I found uh unusual about part of their Friendship was they, they came from to totally Divergent backgrounds.
Ali was part of the black middle class in Kentucky he actually, you know, had a nuclear family.
His parents lived with him at home, brother Rudy, and they had a house and father had a job.
His mother had a job, they had indoor plumbing, they had a kitchen, so they had their own room.
So it was really.
You know a different, a different upbringing, the amount of who grew up poor in the South, whose father was murdered by the Klan and who was told how ignorant and stupid he was every day by a white teacher.
So it’s interesting that two people from different backgrounds um found each other, but when they did find each other it it it just it clicked.
It was like lightning and thunder because what Muhammad Ali got was he got this firm background for Malcolm on the history of of what went on with black people in the United States and around the world, and he found out certain truths.
For instance, you know Jesus Christ was black with hair like Lamb’s.
Wool born in the Middle East was not this European White blue-eyed vision and that he believed that that wasn’t the um Christianity wasn’t the white man’s or wasn’t the black man’s true relation that it was Islam, but everyone in that part of the world at that point.
In in in Middle East, Africa was black, so what Malcolm got was he got this tremendous um boost for the Nation of Islam from Muhammad Ali, this electric character, who you know they both used each other in a way Ali was able to shoot to fame, but He gained a lot more confidence with Malcolm that that um, you know he he didn’t want to Muhammad wasn’t alone.
Let’S put it that way that he had Malcolm behind him.
Get pumping him with all this confidence and and Ali was a great spokesman for the Nation of Islam.
He made them internationally famous.
He brought in millions hundreds of millions of dollars in donations, because this was Ali.
You know this or before he was Ali, it was um Cassius Clay, so so it was an important.
It was a very important um uh relationship between the two men uh.
The book brings that out.
What I wanted to ask Professor Roberts was what what drew them to each other, and why was their bond so tight, especially since they came from the two backgrounds uh, they were like brothers, they truly loved each other and they were very close, and you know when, When Malcolm made, I don’t want to say it was a mistake, but it cost him.
His life uh Malcolm made.
The decision to release several truths and one of the truths was that Elijah Muhammad, the founder of the Nation of Islam, the Lost Foundation of Islam as it was called, was uh fathering a lot of children.
He was a Flander with white secretaries that worked in various mosques all over the United States, and this was a bombshell, and this is essentially what Mark Malcolm for death, Malcolm, was speaking out and speaking his mind, and you weren’t supposed to do that.
Everything came from Elijah Muhammad.
In fact it started to fall apart after the assassination November 22nd 1963 of President Kennedy.
When um Malcolm was asked about it, and he said he wasn’t upset.
He said I’m always happy when chickens come home to who’s and after the assassination Elijah Muhammad had put out uh in order to every member of the Nation of Islam.
Do not make any negative comments at all in any way about President Kennedy, he was dearly loved and this would bring us bad publicity, and you know this would put a paint us in a bad light and Malcolm didn’t, listen, and so he was suspended from the Nation of Islam, but at that time this is before this is November.
63.
.
Remember, Ali wins the title February 64.
, so Ali’s still very close with him, and this presents Elijah Muhammad with the conundrum which is you know, I got ta, get rid of Malcolm Malcolm’s, eloquent Elijah, Muhammad wasn’t a good speaker, he was boring, he was dull and he Wasn’T a person that that excuse me it wasn’t a magnetic speaker.
The way Malcolm X was we’ve all seen clips of Malcolm X.
We could hold you in the palm of his hand.
Descend with Muhammad Ali could hold you in the palm of his hand.
Malcolm X was a boring, monotonous, speaker and excuse me Elijah Muhammad was a boring, monotonous, speaker and Malcolm X was a direct threat to his to his Supremacy.
This is one of the things I wanted to get at with with uh.
Dr Roberts uh, Professor Roberts, is, was you know, Malcolm viewed as a direct threat to him was Malcolm.
Looked upon, I’m just checking my email to see if I’ve had a response from him was Malcolm reviewed or looked at as a direct threat to to the Nation of Islam and to the leadership of Elijah Muhammad and, if so, and it was decided that they had To get rid of him, who ordered it, who ordered the head, but on today’s show, what we really wanted to discuss was the relationship between them, because they they were inseparable, Muhammad and and Malcolm X, and you would see them everywhere.
The Nation of Islam was this Fringe religious sect and, in fact, recently in Toronto had a benadryth dinner Anti-Defamation to dinner, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, whose Muslim was there and he said that the Nation of Islam are not Muslims, they’ve, never been Muslims.
He said they’re hate, monitors, they’re, bigger, bigots and they’re ignorant, and he said that’s the way.
Elijah Muhammad was, and he said and that’s the way Louis Farrakhan is – and I know for a fact, Ali was not particularly particularly um.
Uh didn’t particularly like Louis Farrakhan and his his harsh rhetoric and Views towards particularly Jewish people.
So so you have this.
Going on.
The Nation of Islam was founded in in the 20s by a white man named W.
D fard, and it was actually bankrolled financially by a Jewish businessman.
When Elijah Muhammad, his real name, was Elijah pool, joined.
He joined to you know he he saw as a great idea.
He joined, WD, fired, disappeared, most people believe was murdered by Elijah Muhammad and then W uh Elijah Muhammad, given after World War II.
He said it’s not my my board, the white people’s War, it’s not my job to save the Jews, nor do I want to so.
He went to prison for that and he and prison really.
You know, made him a much harder tougher man as it would to anyone and he came out of prison and uh.
He starts I guess in Detroit and then moves around to Chicago and other places.
The Nation of Islam – and these are people you would see.
How do I describe this? I know in Toronto and in every city I guess North America there’s always someone on a Major Street Corner with a bullhorn and soapbox come to Jesus.
The end is near well.
This is what they reviewed as these kind of people, uh uh Wing nuts.
You know always asking other black people to join, and many black people saw them as just a cult and the way they got Malcolm X.
It’S not that they got him, but they got him to join Malcolm X before we knew him as this eloquent origin for the Nation of Islam was a street Hustler and and um he was Street hustling with red fox, the comedian believe it or not, and so He was known as Detroit Red Fox also had red hair, so they were, they were hustling over Detroit.
He was selling drugs.
He worked in New York selling drugs.
He was a pimp and um.
It’S just a hardcore criminal until he and he was also a heroin addict and he got caught got put in prison and when he got put in prison, he had to come down from his heroin habit and he was having a tough time and the Nation of Islam approached him and they helped him like.
I don’t know if they gave him methadone or whatever.
They gave him two three four five times to get over the worst point and then, finally, when he was able to uh, they started to talk to them and praising the members of the Nation of Islam and tell them about his race and his his real.
What they believed to be Israel, religion and his history and Malcolm understood was thankful for it.
He believed it saved his life and, of course, when he gets the world, he becomes a minister and he meets Elijah Muhammad and starts preaching and Ali Muhammad Ali first, as Cassius Clay with his brother Rudy got interested in the Nation of Islam when they were attending A conference in uh uh Detroit, I’m not sure where, if that was the actual spark or the meeting point.
This is what I wanted to ask Dr Roberts about, and so what happens is Ali likes? What he hears at this conference in Detroit with his brother in an appeals to him, because you know Abby, grew up in this world.
I mean he lived in himself now.
Kentucky didn’t join the Confederate States during the Civil War.
You know they stayed with the Union, but Ali’s still experienced it, even though he went to a you know: um a mixed race, High School and Ali went to the Olympics.
He wins the gold medal and it’s promoting the USA he’s known as the mayor of the Olympic Village, and then he comes back and when he comes back, he creates a story which is completely fiction by the way.
The book, The Greatest by Richard Durham, with Muhammad Ali Richard Durham, was the staff writer for the Nation of Islam.
Almost nothing in that book is true, it’s complete fiction, and so in the book they say that Muhammad went into a hamburger joint and the lady said.
We don’t serve Negroes and Muhammad said.
Well, I don’t eat them, I want a hamburger and they wouldn’t serve him and he was so upset.
He goes outside and he throws his his um gold medal into the river and it never happened.
You never did that and when I spoke to Angela, then the end of Muhammad, he just lost it as we all do.
We lose things Muhammad, especially as he got older, never put much value on things of material work.
So if he had a briefcase – and he said – hey – that’s a cool looking briefcase to give it to you.
If you like this watch or I like the tie, you have on it’s a cool colorful diet.
Give it to you.
It didn’t mean anything to him.
It made you happy fine, you have it, so it didn’t mean anything.
I mean it did at the time and he used his story to perpetrate the racism and I I’m sure he experienced that throughout, but Muhammad wasn’t stupid.
I mean he knew in Louisville what restaurants.
He could and couldn’t go into.
Perhaps he did think that because he was an Olympic champion, this indemnified him from racism, but it didn’t so what we have there um.
You know these guys first meet, but they come of age when Ali goes to New York.
This is when the relationship takes off and I think Elijah Muhammad was of this.
I mean the relationship.
There were rumors for a long time that you know Olympic boxer Cassius played flirting with the Nation of Islam.
You have to understand this is during the Civil Rights Movement, the the beginning, the very big anti-vietnam War movement and also the youth movement.
That started acknowledges like Berkeley and USC and went all across the nation where, where there was a Changing of the Guard, we’re out with the old guard in with the new guard – and you know, I always felt the saddest and most profound victim of all.
This was Sonny Liston, I mean listen was part of the Old Guard, but he had no choice.
Listening couldn’t read or write, he was illiterate and listen, wouldn’t challenge what was going on in the South Ali did the list and wouldn’t because listen grew up in the Deep South, knowing that, if he challenged it, you got lynched, and you know listing was the 28th Of 29 children born to tow blistin and when asked list, and after we beat Patterson for the title, they said, are you going to march with the Freedom Writers in Selma uh, protesting segregation, and he said no and asked him why he said? Because I ain’t got.
No dog proof ass.
He thought it’s stupid to protest these people himself, because the police and the people are just going to murder you and they’re going to get away with.
It would happen quite often so one to seminal points in Muhammad Ali’s life happened in 55.
57, I think, with the murder of young Emmett Till uh, basically him until it’s this young kid from Chicago who goes down there to visit with relatives goes into a store, ordered some gum get some gum, but the lady was upset and ran it.
The bigot who admitted before she died that he was standing outside talking and laughing with his friend.
She had no friends, her husband and her brother-in-law.
I mean we’re just I don’t know if they’re klansmen, but they were sure not far from it, and she made up a story about he grabbed her and whistled at her and wanted to have make love to her.
That never happened and, of course they ended up.
Murdering him until and Muhammad Ali and Louisville seized the picture of till in his casket of his face grotesquely swollen – and I mean you couldn’t recognized him after what they had done to him.
So this really terrified as it would any young African-American back then, and he you know Muhammad thoughts is something not right about the religion, I’m being taught in school.
There’S something there has to be something better to protect black people, because white people aren’t going to do it and white police aren’t going to do it so alleys of this mind, and he realizes that, although when he’s in Rome he wins the Olympic gold light heavily Gold medal he’s got no rights when it comes back to Louisville and what he did was he got these sponsors behind him, the Louisville sponsoring group, I think 12 13 white man all millionaires, put money in and he becomes more Middleton as he sees more things happening.
The shooting of Medgar Evers and civil rights leader in the South – and he just doesn’t believe and can’t accept the way black people are being treated but he’s not sure how to speak out about it at this point at least focused solely on his career.
So when he gets to New York – and he was in New York um – actually he was in New York and he wanted to meet Sugar Ray Robinson who ignored him, waited all day and went there to meet him.
And but he sees people preaching and he takes one of the Muhammad speaks newspapers and these newspapers are telling them you know, Muhammad is, is um, Elijah Muhammad speaks and message to the black man and it’s he starts reading it and he’s reading things that are making Sense to him, you know: why are we portrayed as this? Why are we second-class citizens why you know Lincoln emancipated black people? Why can’t we were supposed to have election rights all over the country? We don’t have those we’re supposed to be able to go into any store or restaurant.
We can’t do that.
We’Re supposed to be able to speak our mind publicly without fear of Retribution.
We can’t do that and Ali.
You know young Cassius, Clay’s, reading this and he’s thinking.
This is true.
This makes sense to me.
I want to hear more of this, and so he starts to go to more and more meetings and and they hook up and they’re seen together, and this breaks out into the newspaper now the fight with list in uh February 25th.
1964.
The Miami Beach Convention Center is promoted by Chris Dundee Angelo’s brother and Bill McDonald, but it breaks in the newspaper a couple weeks before.
Maybe I think a week before or less excuse me that Ali is a member of the Nation of Islam and in fact Jimmy Dundee Angelo’s son said he had joined six to eight months before that fight.
So he had joined even before President Kennedy was assassinated and I said how do you know that? And he said because I was playing hide and seek with them in my backyard in Florida and um, I I said Ready or Not, Cassie is here I’d come and Cassius said over the walkie-talkie, my name’s not Cassius anymore Jim.
You know that my name is Muhammad Ali, and so this brouhaha breaks out this big storm, it’s in the papers and as Chris Dundee said now, I got a problem before I have the great Olympic hero that everyone loves he’s gorgeous he’s charismatic.
He he’s he’s got a great smile and then I have the villain Liston, who worked for the mafia, who was a head breakthrough or hurt people? Who was a money collector for the mob? And now, because he’s a member of the Nation of Islam, which is viewed as a racist sect, which it quite was in many respects, I got two villains and so Bill McDonald, the the money man behind the fight Bill McDonald comes in and Bill McDonald um calls Muhammad Ali and Cassie is playing and says, listen um.
You have uh you’ve got to drop.
This you’ve got to go out publicly in the newspapers and give a TV interview and say I’m not a member of the Nation of Islam.
I don’t support the Nation of Islam, they’re racist, they don’t represent my point of view and if you don’t do that, then the fight’s canceled and you know Muhammad’s just 22 years old, he’s just a kid.
I’M 62.
that’s 40 years younger than I am I I didn’t know what I was doing back then, and he looked at him and he said then cancel it.
I’M not going to give up on my religious beliefs, or my morality just to make you money, and this was a case in point.
It’S it.
The incredible thing here is the fact that a Nation of Islam even supported Ali, because they were against professional sports, but in particular boxing is they view boxing as a sport, where black men beat each other up uh for the pleasure of white people and to make White people, money specifically the mafia and the mafia, had ripped off all fighters but in particular blackfighting stolen all their money in every fight.
For you know, 70, 60, 70 years.
So these were vile, vicious people and so Ali said.
No, then, the fight’s off and all Ali really wanted to do from the time he was 12 on must be the heavyweight champion of the world.
You know when he was a kid.
His Heroes were Joe Louis and Chevrolet Robinson.
So what happens so? He goes to his bus, which he calls big red and he’s getting ready, he’s going to leave and as he walks out, you know, he’s leaving and I’m half an hour later.
Chris and Angela Dundee come in and Bill McDonald tells him what’s happened.
He said, why would you do that? Why would you threaten him? What did you think he was going to do you know? Do you think he would just give in to you? You know how he is, he doesn’t give it to anyone, and this is part of how Muhammad trained you know.
Angela would never tell him what to do, because he couldn’t, he would suggest it.
He would say I love the way you’re popping that jab or throwing that right hand, and then you know Muhammad would keep doing it.
So Chris Dundee saves today.
He says you know, give me an hour.
The rental and Ally’s in his bus he’s getting ready to go back to Kentucky he’s given up you, don’t not giving up like depressed giving up, but like I’m, not gon na I’m not going to go back to my religious beliefs.
He said to McDonald you’re a Christian.
If somebody said you can’t broadcast the fight.
Unless you go back on your Christian beliefs, would you do it and obviously he wouldn’t do it? So what happens? Is Chris Dundee talks to him and he says: listen the fights tonight right and Clay said they’re not going to be a fight.
Now and and – and Chris said – why don’t we do this and and passes places I’m not going back.
I understand that I’m not denouncing Elijah Muhammad, I’m not denouncing the Nation of Islam.
I refuse to do that and Chris said I’m not asking you to I’ll take care of Bill McDonald.
He said all you have to do is wait.
How long 24 hours? That’S all he said once you beat listed and the titles around your waist, it’s a set of complete it’s nothing.
They can do about it.
So you beat him tonight tomorrow, you come out, make your announcement too bad for them.
You’Ve got everything and Ali waited two days actually to make the announcement.
You know he wins on this Friday and then on the on the Sunday.
He makes the announcement that my new name is Muhammad Ali, but in fact, you’ve been using that name for six to eight months now and he he you know absolutely was just so magnetic and it upset people.
I mean people don’t realize today how much of a villain Ali was.
He was universally hated.
He was a king in his own realm, because people thought well, you know parents were Baptist, I mean this is great.
We got it away from Liston and now he’s turned around and he’s done this and, of course, Ali came out with the statement.
I don’t have to be what you want me to be, I’m free to be who I am I because my color skin not yours.
My Religion, not yours, my words, not yours, it’s my life and it’s not your life that I can act.
However, I want, according to the laws of the United States and the tenants of my religion, and it’s nothing you can do about it, and so this upset people.
This is a big Firestone and to make it even worse, he’s got Malcolm X with him and there’s that movie that was done by Regina King One Night in Miami most of was uh fiction.
I’M gon na see.
If Mr Roberts got back to me, because I noticed that I have a new uh email, but most of most of it was fiction – and I mean Malcolm X was in with him so was so was um Sam Cook and those people and and other people.
But they never met in a hotel room after they met in a Muslim bar where Ali didn’t it showed alley.
In the movie drinking alcohol Ali never touched alcohol, and This was um, something that you know was was uh misplayed in the movie, so they’re all celebrating that night and before the fight Malcolm X, was asked, I think, by Angela Dundee to leave during training camp.
He said you’re bringing a lot of he he’d been in with Ali and training at that point for a couple years, Jimmy Dundee has photos of him with him.
Jimmy was a young boy, then, and Malcolm sitting, at the lunch counter down below having something to eat.
You know Florida was a southern city right, so there was still a lot of racism, then and Malcolm was there every day at the gym, yelling encouragement to Muhammad, giving him spiritual guidance, grooming, Evans, a member of the Nation of Islam.
But the more reporters started to write about it.
You know ticket sales stopped and people started to return tickets so because of the and also they returned tickets, which other which some people don’t mention was the fact that it was thought to be such a mismanagement.
You know, listen was a minimum seven to one favorite, but in a lot of places, if he was 10 or 15 to one Ali, he was viewed as um a uh, an amusing flake.
He wasn’t supposed to have a chance.
No one thought he had a chance.
There was something like 99 Sports writers at ringside, like 96 picked listing within two rounds.
Three of them, two from New York, one from Britain said Ali, has a chance because listens only fought three rounds in the last three years, which was true.
He had three fights.
Each one lasting less than a round so because of that they thought and listen.
Everyone knew hadn’t trained because he thought it would be okay, you know it’s gon na hit out Ali or play, and then the fight will be over and but played with training and in his ear every day, thanks Malcolm X was telling him you got this.
You have this Ally would not allow you to lose.
This isn’t happening by chance.
You understand this.
This isn’t because you dreamed as a boy at 12.
I want to be the heavyweight champion, all of that going into boxing winning the Olympic gold medal.
That was pre-ordained by God by Allah, and this is part of Allah’s plan to allow you to show the world the greatness of Allah and the religion of Islam, and so what he did.
He was there pumping him up.
He was giving him confidence and right after the fight when he wins.
He said I talked to God every day.
If God’s behind me can’t nobody beat me and, and that’s how he felt, he really believed in his heart that not only the Nation of Islam, and especially Malcolm his best friend, is behind him, but Allah himself was behind him and he thought.
How can I lose? I can’t be beaten and he goes into this fight and uh, so Malcolm leaves a week or two before the fight and comes back for the day of the fight because he doesn’t want to draw attention to himself.
He wants to focus to be on Muhammad and it’s funny when the interview Malcolm X, after the fight he said, were you surprised? No, he was confident better fighter, younger man, smarter Ally or named it.
What do you think? What do you think uh Cassius Clay, how he feels now and he had a great comment.
He said uh.
Mr Clay, as we all know, can very well speak for himself better than I can, or anyone can and it’d be best to pose those questions to him.
Rather than me – and you know, he’s talking one of the things that came up before the fight that I wanted to ask – Professor Roberts was um, there’s rumors.
They pertain to the second fight, but to this fight too, that the Nation of Islam came to to Mo to listen’s training camp, the Foy, the fruit of Islam and threatened him and because they threatened him listed in didn’t come out for the seventh round.
I don’t buy it, I don’t think that’s even within the realm of possibility listing was a mob guy.
He was controlled by the mafia.
You know he he was backed by the Lucchesi family in New York and the most powerful of all of mafia families.
The outfit in Chicago being backed by the mafia man, he had no fear of anyone.
They could easily put someone else out there to get rid of anyone they wanted.
You know to protect listening, I think, of what we’re getting away from this unique relationship between Malcolm and Muhammad.
I think basically, that I don’t think it was listing shoulder though he said it was the shoulder, because the round before they stopped the fight before Lipton puts in its Corner this world heavyweight champion to do that since Jess Willard he’s using the left hand, I think Liston said I’m exhausted, I’ve got nothing left.
I can’t fight he’s beating the hell out of me and he’s gon na knock me out.
I don’t want to be not there.
I don’t want to go out like that.
I want to preserve my abandonment, so if he wants it, let him take it and listen just quit and that’s what bullies do bullies quit.
It’S a function of all bullies, um, the one of the other questions, um uh that I wanted to to.
Oh hi.
Scrapbook! Glad you’re here we’re still waiting for Mr Randy Roberts uh.
Hopefully it doesn’t look like he’s going to be here, but um uh, uh um, hopefully he’ll um he’ll, show up soon um.
I wanted to ask him if, if the FBI, which I think they did infiltrated the Nation of Islam, because they saw them as a threat, of course, Jagger Hoover signing black person as a threat, but the comments being made by Elijah Muhammad excuse me and other members Of the Nation of Islam, specifically [ Music ], hang on a sec, hello.
Yes, it is hi how you doing yes great to hear your voice, okay, what we’re gon na we’re gon na start it too, but we can start now if you like.
Yes, yes, sir.
Okay, okay, that sounds great.
Thank you.
So much so he’s gon na be on Randy’s gon na be on, so he he um he’s extremely busy.
He you’ve seen him on many cam burn specials.
So Eric what do we do now? Scrapbook? This is gon na.
Be great you’re gon na love this um Eric? What should we do now we’re 33 minutes in we’ll just start anew with Randy? We will wait for him.
Oh, oh, okay, so I’ll, just okay! Well, what I’ll do is I’ll, introduce them I’ll.
Do it like it’s? The top of the show and um I will do it that way when Randy comes on and um uh.
I would just like the part: that’s going to be aired to be the part with Randy, but we maybe can do it in two different parts, because it I would just love to um, okay, great, so he’s gon na.
Let me know when he’s in the Green Room and um uh, okay, so what I should do is then I should um uh.
I should get the.
Why am I stuttering? I should get the history of him and – and I have that in my head – uh.
Fortunately, I have such a big head uh for you, people watching out there in scrapbook just want to say this would be great um.
He is an incredible man, he’s very, very uh, a busy Professor Roberts uh you’ve seen him on literally dozens of Ken Burns documentaries and um the Muhammad Ali, one recently on PBS on Jack Johnson, one Unforgivable Blackness um.
His most recent book is about um a season in the sun, Mickey Mouse and right now he’s just changing his shirt um.
You know I’ll I’ll say this.
It’S a good thing.
I was a stand-up comedian for many years because they would have to introduce a famous comic and they would say he’s not here yet he’ll, be here in 20 minutes and then think, oh well, they don’t want to listen to me.
They want to listen.
You know to to the comic but um well I’ll, try scrapbook to get his Jack Johnson stuff.
Mostly.
What we’re going to talk about is The Blood Brothers book and as I’m looking down at the page um you know you can see.
I I’m looking down a bit because I have a list of like 35 questions to um.
You get here to him and I guess I can ask him because he would give he wrote the book and he would give um.
He was privy to information um that um other people weren’t.
So in the Brooklyn Jack Johnson, Joe Lewis, hard times, man which I love you’re right last bell boxing yeah hard times.
Man is a magnificent book and last spell boxing you have to agree.
That’S also one of the greatest titles I’ve ever heard for a book hard times, man so he’s a premier historian and you’ll recognize him instantly.
When you see him – and I I just really enjoyed watching him – Unforgivable Blackness, also on Ken Burns, documentaries and um.
So his knowledge of boxing is great and put it in a way that most people understand.
You know when I, when I went to school history was a thing people dreaded, but I loved and he makes it exciting and he makes it fun and he’s constantly in demand.
So um uh.
Hopefully it’s just changing and he’s at home in Indiana Lafayette, Indiana.
I’D love to go to Indiana, but I’ve never been there um, so hopefully uh just being on air soon.
This is what is known as vamping um.
I am ashamed to admit that I did watch the Logan Paul fight uh, not Logan, Paul Jake, Jake, Paul fight, which last night which put me to sleep, and the Serrano fight was all right, but Heather Hardy’s shot, and that was just a beat down.
So um uh in Unforgivable Blackness about Jack Johnson, the stuff that Randy Roberts – these were great stories that are in his book about Johnson and Jack Johnson was very much a big influence on Muhammad Ali.
You know uh Ali when Ali would be fighting and people would be yelling, derogatory things Adam sorry, um undini Brown would be yelling ghost in the house, meaning Jack Johnson’s here and that would always spur Ali on.
You know to fight even harder and um.
So you know I I don’t know of a more prolific figure than Muhammad Ali in boxing you know in the history of the sport.
I certainly think.
As most people know, Jack Joe Lewis was the greatest of all heavyweight champion, but Ali was the most magnetic and is right out there with Lewis, as one of, if not the greatest, you know athlete of the 20th century uh.
Mr Roberts, will Professor Roberts will join us soon and um is the 100th anniversary, professor and distinguished professor of history, at Purdue University and he’s written dozens of books he’s written books on John Wayne, he’s written books on the Chicago Cubs he’s written books on American history And American historical figures, which, in a real larger sense, are really worldly historical figures and um.
We will discuss his book Blood Brothers, but as as uh last bell, boxing mentions, you know when I spoke to him.
I should tell you last bell and scrapbook when I, when I emailed them while ago, you know, I said well, let’s talk about the Jack Johnson book because that’s endlessly fascinating and I thought well.
I want to talk about the Joe Lewis book because that’s a great book too, and then I thought well.
The Dempsey book is also a fantastic book and then I thought logically, we have to talk about and Ally, um uh, Malcolm X, and one of the things about Ali and Malcolm X.
I have to tell you about this book.
I found out about this book um in a different way than than most people oops, my son, so I’m not sure if he’d call me back or so when I saw me just speak to him actually he’s still speaking, I had the phone on so I had To hang up to allow him to do that, okay, so I I was at a trauma Sports Film Festival.
Six, seven years ago, at Mark the former great boxing writer for the Eternal star, grab me and said you got to get this new book by Randy Roberts and Johnny Smith.
It’S the book, the book, Blood, Brothers and um.
You will love it and it’s not.
You know it’s words and all so um, I’m just checking my phone here.
This is highly unprofessional on my part, but I’ve been called worse, um.
Okay, so we’ll see what happens, he’s just changing and right now we have me blabbering on for 42 minutes Eric.
What’S the time limit we have if he were to come on in like three or four minutes? Oh no time limit! Oh great! Well, that’s great! Okay, good! So maybe we’ll take him to like 74 hours of speaking.
I don’t think that’ll happen, um, you’re, right um! So I hope I didn’t hang up on him now because he just called me before and at 2 44 and then I hung up so I’m going to place a call to him.
Oh here he is again hello.
Okay, okay, I can ask our producers I’m talking to you.
Okay, I can ask him to resend it to you Studio, studiolink.
That’S it IO! Okay! I can have him resend it to you.
Okay, can you refresh it like on another app or or is that? Okay, I’ll do that right! Okay, I’ll! Do that right now, Eric can you read, send the link to Randy, please so he’s going to do that right now, just a link to click on okay, okay, no problem! So I’ll! Just I just have to get um! I’M just going to copy your your um, your email and then um.
I will send that I will send that to him.
Okay, sup um, so I’m gon na get this straight.
Our Roberts at purdue.
edu, right, okay, right yeah, do okay, I’m sick, um, dot, edu! Okay! So he should have the uh.
He should have that to you momentarily, and hopefully we can fix this sorry about that.
Okay, so he just said I just sent it yeah.
I had the electricity was off in my building for last week, so it played Havoc wow wow, okay, okay, so he should have sent it by now.
Okay, usually when I probably my computer and call my daughter over and she just right, you’re lucky right right, I’m the same way.
My daughter just ends up doing it for me, and I said why don’t you just show me, and she said I don’t have time you’re not gon na get it so I’ll.
Just do it I’ll just do it for you right.
No, neither do I my my brother always is easy for him, but he just he said, I’m not going to tell you again for the third time you came to my house once and he wrote on the wall and marker rtfm, and I said, what’s that read The manual you can’t call me anytime day or night just because I’m your brother, because you don’t know what you’re doing on a computer yeah I yeah, neither do I and I have Max so it’s supposed to be for people that don’t have patience.
Okay, could you go on through Google, okay, um? Yes, yeah, that’s yeah! That’S the one exit yeah! Yes, okay! Okay! That’D! Be wonderful! Oh great! I’M sorry that I’m that ugly, but okay, okay, so Eric he’s an uh Professor Roberts is in the studio.
Okay.
Great! Thank you, that’s great, so we’re going to play the intro Randy and then we’ll bring you right in [, Music ].
Oh no [, Music, ] hi! My name is Louise and welcome to ring talk.
Today we have a fantastic show.
We have one of my true heroes.
Professor Randy Roberts he’s the 150th anniversary history, professor at Purdue University.
The man is brilliant.
If you looked at brilliant in the dictionary his face would be there.
You recognize him.
This man has done throughout the world.
He has written almost 30 brilliant books.
His most recent is a season in the sun, Mickey Mantle, which I just ordered.
I can’t wait to read his books are definitive.
I loved his book as people have been mentioning on screen Papa Jack on Jack Johnson.
Joe Lewis book had me in tears hard times, man, which is the greatest title.
I’Ve ever heard, and also his fantastic book on Jack Dempsey and today we’re going to discuss his his groundbreaking book Blood Brothers uh about the Fatal friendship between Muhammad Ali and Malcolm X.
I just wanted to mention that Professor Roberts has been nominated for Newfield surprise.
Four times most people can’t spell it the word Pulitzer.
This man is brilliant and it’s a tremendous, tremendous privilege and pleasure to have him on the show today.
Please welcome Mr Roberts, hey Lou, how you doing I’m fine.
How are you I’m doing great? I hope I have this light.
Okay, I hope it shows.
Oh, it’s fine, okay, great! It’S fine! I was rereading.
I thought you know this week I with with your wonderful book.
I I would reread a couple pages and then of course I end up rereading the book because I can’t put it down, which is a habit that happens with all your books.
Of course you pick them up, you start to read them, and then you know you can’t put them down um.
I had questions to ask you about uh the relationship between Muhammad and and uh Malcolm X, and I guess the first question I want to ask.
You is what did each man get from each other that they didn’t get from anyone else.
What was it was a key that that’s it.
You know that that’s fantastic question, um.
What did they get? They got a sense of you know of confidence.
I think from each other you know Ali had a sense of Destiny about them, but I’m not sure he knew what his Destiny was going to be.
I think he felt that he he was a man of Destiny.
He said he was a man of Destiny from the very beginning, but if someone would have asked him well, what will your destiny be? Then he would be uh.
You know heavyweight champion of the world youngest heavyweight champion.
I don’t really think he had an ideology.
A mission to go with that sense of Destiny, whereas when Malcolm came into his life, he saw something Malcolm Malcolm made, sense to him.
Okay, the world didn’t make sense to him the racism in the world that bitterness of his father, the the the the terrible divisions between black and white, the Discrimination that didn’t make sense to him.
You know he didn’t see the logic Malcolm was the key Malcolm opened.
The door, Malcolm provided the logic of the world, the logic of racism in America being stripped of his name as soon as he came to America, be turned into a played the ancestors so that it’s it’s easy on that side and – and I think Ali clay at That time, when they met, gave Malcolm a sense of this is the future of black men of the black women in America, proud, beautiful, confident you know before the before ali uh again before clay Malcolm was dealing a lot with people like himself, who had been through The prison system who had felt the hard times who’s, whose Horizons were frankly very limited – I mean you know you, you get out of prison, you’re a black man.
You get out of a prison and uh.
You know you go in at 17 or 18 or 19 and you get out of first time 25 or so you spent six years.
You have virtually no education, you know.
Where do you go from there? You know.
That’S, that’s tough.
The the Nation of Islam tried to present a discipline and tried to present an Avenue, but it was hard to say why he comes in he’s just different different class.
Yes, you know: is it surprisingly hooked up given their Divergent backgrounds, that Malcolm’s father was murdered and he had school teachers, white school teachers telling them you’d be not saying an alley really grew up in the black middle class in Louisville, but for whatever reason, their personalities.
Just instantly clicked yeah, you know they they saw so much of each other in in one another I mean you know they were both stood tall.
They were both proud, they’re, both good looking.
They were both.
You know unbelievably articulate you know they and, and they just presented the same kind of an image in the world.
Although you’re right, Malcolm comes from a more downtrodden Ali, comes from he’s middle class, he’s not worried about what he’s going to eat tomorrow.
He’S got two parents they’re great parents, but he can see the bitterness in his father.
He can see that residue of racism all around them.
In Louisville I mean they live in a a nice Community neighborhood, but it’s an all-black neighborhood.
You know this is not a segregated Talent at all right and Kentucky didn’t enjoying the Confederacy right during the Civil War.
They stayed separate, they were reunion, that’s exactly right, but it was a border state.
You know it was.
It was like Tennessee uh, there were battles fought in Kentucky, but it was.
It was like Tennessee that uh there was not much Kentucky Tennessee Louisiana could really do because they were so quickly.
Grass Maryland the same way so quickly taken over by the Union did um.
When, when was the first meeting between Ali and Cassius Clay and Malcolm did this occur in New York or Detroit Detroit, it was there.
There was a convention at that time.
Uh, the the Nation of Islam was holding a convention and The Honorable lives of Muhammad was going to speak and uh an acquaintance of uh of of Ali, a person he had met when he was training down in Miami Beach called him up uh sailor.
I mean Captain Sam, called him up and said: hey the Ali had met Captain Sam Miami, but Captain Sam said you know the the orange honorable Elijah Muhammad is going to speak uh in in Detroit.
Would you like to go? You don’t get a chance, maybe meet Malcolm X and Ally, and his brother Rahman, who was Rudy at the time, said yeah sure and they’d pick him up and they drive him up and they met at a luncheonette before Elijah Muhammad spoke and, of course knew who Malcolm X was – and you know he had heard Malcolm X’s right.
I saw him on television, listen to his speeches when it when he could, but he hadn’t he had.
He had never met him, and so he he goes up to him and she sticks out his hand, says hi, I’m I’m Cassius Clay and Elijah Muhammad says great Elijah Muhammad had no idea who he was Cassius Clay assumed that every person named Christendom knew who he Was but but Malcolm was not in a particular big boxing fan, didn’t follow Sports Nation of Islam really kind of condemned professional sports, but they saw each other.
They got along and spoke a little bit and then they started seeing each other con uh secretly over the next number of few years.
It’S surprising what you say because, as you said, a Nation of Islam condemned Sports, especially boxing which they looked at as black men.
Fighting for the pleasure of white man for the white man’s money and white men getting all the money, and but they made an exception for Cassius Clay.
Is that to benefit them because he was becoming so big at the time.
So it didn’t make an exception or immediately, but because you got to remember the heavyweight champion at this time, it’s Sonny Liston and Sonny Liston seemed to be invincible and Sonny.
Liston basically was invincible.
I mean, I think, Sonny Liston in a three-year period.
I think in three major fights they all ended in the first round, so he had fought for a few rounds when he fought.
So they didn’t want to go out in the limb and and say this guy’s, a member of the Nation of Islam and and Clay.
Probably wasn’t a member of the Nation of Islam at that time very sympathetic to the movement and he had heard he had heard that there was a famous song.
You Know Heaven there’s a white man, a white man’s happiness, a black man’s hell, yeah, yeah and and Clay had listened to that he’d.
Listen to speeches Malcolm X and listen to speech of Elijah Muhammad.
So he he he he.
He understood what the nation was all about, but he hadn’t joined yet because if he had out now joined and said, I’m a member of the Nation of Islam, this uh Nation of Islam and black Muslims, were viewed as a kind of a hate group.
At this time, and if he had said that his career would have been effectively over, he would never gotten a shot at the heavyweight title, so he keeps his quiet as far as the nation goes.
Excuse me, as far as the nation goes, um Ali is yeah.
It’S interesting, they’re, they’re, sort of interested in Elijah muh and some others are interested that this guy is following the Nation of Islam, the sympathetic Nation of Islam, but they’re not going to go out in the land and say yeah we’re embracing him when he, if he Fights for the title against listings he’s just going to get slaughtered anyway, knocked out in a round or two.
You know the nation didn’t need that right.
Why did the Nation of Islam Target Malcolm X, for I guess redemption, or to help him off his heroin Habit in prison? Why him Malcolm Malcolm, was a a great recruit for a Nation of Islam or not agree, I wouldn’t say a great recruit at first, but it was really Malcolm’s brother who became a member of the Nation of Islam first and then he kind of recruited, Malcolm X, And then Malcolm was in prison and they started to read up okay, he started okay, this makes sense and when Malcolm got out of prison, he went to go, see Elijah Muhammad and he wants to work for them and and then they see Elijah Muhammad and the Other Nation members see this guy’s great we’re trying to build an organization.
This guy is dynamic, he’s a speaker.
He you know attract.
He will attract all sorts of people, particularly people like himself, who spent time and time in prison and we’re we’re looking for something and – and he has the answers and his his his mosque uh.
The his where he preaches in Harlem becomes the leading place for the Nation of Islam and he’s the he’s the top Money Maker he’s.
The talk.
Recruiter he’s the guy that, when they the show and back in the late 50s came out early 60s um on the the hate that America produced by uh Mike Wallace Malcolm X, is the face of the Nation of Islam.
He’S far more Dynamic, speaker and dynamic person than Elijah Muhammad ever was, but that’s one that leads to my next question.
Do you think Elijah Muhammad saw him later on as a threat to his own leadership saw Malcolm to Malcolm yes, absolutely and there’s no question about you know by the time well Malcolm’s going to be killed by the members of the Nation of Islam and by the Time that Malcolm is dies he’s already split from the Nation of Islam, he’s organized the beginning to organize a splinter movement in which in which he wants Ali to play a central role to be the to be the Malcolm X of his new movement.
That’S you know.
That’S my favorite thing in your book.
It captures this incredible time in American and world history.
You know from from um Kennedy’s assassination on November 22nd, 63 to Ali’s Ascension he’s almost picking up the Throne of Kennedy in February of of um 64.
and that I don’t know how many people today younger than us, would realize how important that was in determining not Just the future of the United States, but the future of the entire world, and – and you know you have Ali and you have Malcolm uh together at the time before before he challenged, listen uh for the title Ali was getting criticized as you want to know in The white newspapers he doesn’t know how to fight he pulls back.
He doesn’t sit down on his punches.
He doesn’t know how to jab.
He moves too much did Malcolm do anything to to ignore this criticism or that it was white criticism just to keep doing what you’re doing well, I think I think Ali was extraordinarily confident in his own boxing style.
Okay, he he’s not changing a little bit.
Angelo Dundee changed a few things got him to do one thing another, but Angelo Dundee was a very strong believer in a fighter style as a fighter style right.
You know, don’t Tinker with it too much.
You know don’t try to don’t try to turn an alley into a power.
Puncher, don’t try to turn Sonny Liston.
He thought he didn’t manage.
He would have said.
Don’T try to turn Sonny listing into a dancer into a Sugar.
Ray Robinson greatness is greatness and it’s different Ali pulled back from punches.
Okay, nobody pulls back from punches.
This is, as people have said, it’s like being on a train track when a train’s coming and trying to pull back from a train.
It’S not going to work.
You’Re going to get hit and Ali did get hit a few times.
Doug Jones, really, you know, hit him hard, and, and so it was hands were too low, but his hands were so fast.
I mean you know what he could do.
No other heavyweight could do so.
You know you had that.
What Malcolm brings to the equation is confidence that again there’s a higher power at work.
Here I love the supreme god, the Supreme Roar, okay, he has a Destiny for you and that’s why uh Malcolm X goes into the locker room dressing room before the listing fights and he prays with with uh Ali.
They they bowed a Mecca bow to the east.
Uh and and he’s he at that time says you know, God Allah has not brought you to this point in your life to let you lose you’re you’re part of his greater plan.
He has a purpose for you and it’s not to be knocked out in the first round by Sonny, Liston and so Ali is able to go out there, confident that he can win well.
If not, he was going to fake it till he makes it uh, because you know he had this confidence.
Well, I I mean I love that story.
I Angela Dundee was like a surrogate father to me, so I I love that fact that that you, you mentioned a key Point: uh Angelo learned from Charlie Goldman, who trained Rocky Marciano that no one invents a game to be beaten at their own game.
So, just like you said you’re good at that Mali style, as Angela would point out, was only ever intended to work for Ali, wasn’t for anyone else, and it was so unique to him and the the point you bring me up about Malcolm in the dressing room Is is fascinating because Ali admitted years later that he was a bit nervous, but after the first round he goes to his corner and Angelo says how about that you’re still here? Well: Liston hadn’t trained for the fight.
You know I was wondering um in 63 November 22nd, when, when President Kennedy was assassinated, Elijah Muhammad put out an order that no one’s to comment on it.
That’S right and Malcolm didn’t, listen it.
You know he he made.
The famous you know, chickens coming home.
Is that what marked him for death eventually or was it the comment about the philandering of of Elijah Muhammad? I think it’s when he started talking about Muhammad, actually, his personal life to flandering uh, the children born out of wedlock.
I think that’s what what really causes that uh, you know he’s he will be after.
He says the chickens comes home to roost that whole statement that brouhaha um he’ll be put on suspension kind of suspended.
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